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imapatient
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Default Mar 26, 2010 at 01:08 AM
  #1
I've been sober 21 years. Stopped on my own, no treatment, no outside help, no AA. Finally accepted that I'd never be able to control my drinking (severe blackouts) after trying to for years, and that the only control I could have over my drinking was to just never drink again. Knew I never would again, and I haven't. I consider myself an alcoholic.

Last summer I became friends with met a guy in an outpatient mental health Day Treatment program (severe depression). He got me to start going to AA meetings as a way to help me stop isolating, to get me social interaction with other people who are similar in some ways (alcoholics with some general tendencies that we all have). I was sui depressed for years until day treatment, very isolated, etc. He's told me to just go to the meetings, be of service, engage in fellowship, etc. as I can handle. We're both very heavy intellectuals and had many discussions about the theories of AA and its practices, etc. I'm turned off by most of it, so I don't have a sponsor and am not doing the steps.

I find that in AA, as he's said, people do evaluate others, everyone takes everyone's inventory, judges their program and how they're doing, etc. That drives me crazy, top the point that I find it regnant to judge other people like that (judge with regard to AA principles and practices). It prevents me from wanting to get more deeply involved. I don't want people passing judgment on "my program" and how well I do with keeping in line, my level of functioning, etc. With my deepest strength, I can't stand that sort of thing. It's obnoxious.

So I go to 2 regular meetings a week. Sometimes go to another or to some "event." I have a coffee commitment at one meeting and go out to fellowship after both. I've only made one other real friend thru the program--one of his friends, too--so that's my involvement. NO steps, sponsor, etc.

Having been in some form of therapy for more than these 21 years, that's where I get my personal growth, that's where I confess my misdeeds, wrongdoings, talk about my issues, and get guidance from an outside, quasi-mentor. I don't get judged. I don't get all sorts of personal things commented on by a non-professional sponsor in ways that seem parental, directive, inappropriate as I see most people getting from their sponsors.

So I have my way, and my reasons. But AA isn't live and let live.

Someone tonight got judgmental with me; tried to take my inventory and was negative about me not having a sponsor or doing steps. Slightly derisive, but I was able to shut him down effectively before it got too far. But then later, after he'd left, I got ballistic about it. He really touched some nerves in me with very standard AA inventory-taking and passing some judgment.

I don't get it.

It seems like all these people are little AA robots with a bunch of simplistic rules and logic--logic that doesn't hold upon deep examination in many parts, where if you're not "with the program" just as you're supposed to be, it's means you're "dry," a euphemism for saying someone is f'd up. They seem like children, and yes, it bears similarity to a cult

I come from having my outside influence be under the mental health model, therapists and other sufferers, where you do not pass judgment on people. DO not tell them they're f'd up, do not tell them what they need to do, don't dig.

I go to meetings--I am an alcoholic per every definition (the Big Book talks about the kind that gets so severely scared in fear of loss of very important things in their life that they can stop--my experience is one of those) so I don't sit around my apartment and think about killing myself, that's how low my life is. Literally that is what gets me to meetings; my friend is sober 25+ years and severely depressed, too--he knows that's why I go and why he thinks I shouId go. I don't need some idiot (my age) with 13 fewer years of sobriety casting aspersions on me and how I'm coping. Why is AA this way? It seems like profound group inferiority (and group think) such as found with cults and cult-ish religions who engage in demonizing those not following their ways, particularly those who are “like” them in important ways. They tear down others, and G-forbid if you don’t follow chapter and verse the party line.

Do others know what I mean? People who don't buy into some of the AA basics, like that it's o.k. to stand in judgment of others? People who aren't in AA because of issues like this?

Are there people in AA out there with advice about how to tolerate some of this? I get many good things out of it, but once people start getting into my business, it's lost to me.

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Default Mar 26, 2010 at 03:23 AM
  #2
impatient, I don't really understand why you are going to the AA meetings. You have been sober for 25 years and are doing well staying sober with whatever methods you have arrived at that work for you. You don't like the philosophy of AA and find it "obnoxious" when the people there judge you. It seems like the only reason you are going is for social contact. Why not choose some other type of social club that is more in line with your interests and personality? A photography club? Square dancing classes? If you feel you need support for depression, NAMI offers free support groups for depression nationwide.

It is great you made a friend from the outpatient mental health program. Could the two of you do some other activity together, like go for a walk in the park, get coffee together at your favorite coffee house, go to a movie, etc. Are you worried since he is so heavily into AA, that if you don't go to AA meetings with him, he might drop you?

I have known people who have had similar reactions to AA as you, so it definitely isn't for everyone. But yet it is helpful to many others. Let them go to their meetings. You do your thing.

A friend of mine went to AA for a while (1-2 yrs) when she was first getting sober. She found it very useful, but later outgrew it. It's kind of like therapy in that way. Sometimes a certain therapist or type of therapy is just what we need at a certain point in our lives, but then we grow and change, and it no longer is a good fit. So we move on. Imapatient, it sounds like AA may not have been a good fit for you ever. It's OK. Just say no. (One thing my friend found was that after she phased out of AA, her AA friends, sponsor, etc., who she had become quite close to, dropped her like a hot potato. She tried to keep up the friendships, but they didn't want to associate with her anymore since she wasn't doing AA. I felt bad for her. She had really believed they were her friends.)

I work in the addiction field, and I told my friend something that sometimes happens. When you're addicted, it's hard to stay away from the substance. When you are in recovery, at first, you can be really obsessive about "not being addicted." Do you know what I mean? You're always talking about it, going to AA or NA meetings, talking to sponsors, planning out when next you will meet with others in recovery, planning how to go to events where there may be people drinking, smoking, or whatever, planning how you will refuse to go to these events, how you will cope if you do go, getting advice from others on this, getting support when days come around that you used to make a regular habit of imbibing on (holidays?), etc. My friend spent so much time thinking about and doing things related to not being addicted, that it was like that became an addiction itself. I've seen this a number of times. Thinking about it so much can keep you "in it." My friend was able to break that secondary rebound kind of addictive behavior and replace always thinking about her past addiction with other thoughts and activities. Like her home business, a new sport she took up, her committed effort to grow as much of their own food as they could and to buy all their other food locally, etc. She moved on. She also has a wonderful spouse for support and a therapist too.

Of course, there are others who go to AA for many years and are sober because of that. More power to them. People are different, so what works for them is different. You know that, intellectual that you are, imapatient! Now quit ragging on the AA people and stop going to those meetings.

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Default Mar 26, 2010 at 08:22 AM
  #3
I understand how you feel about AA in some ways. I got sober with the help of AA fifteen years ago, I believe in the principles of AA, I try to work the steps as best as I can. I also think there are a lot of good people in AA but I know what you mean about certain members doing other's inventorys. I am fifteen years sober and I stopped going to AA some 12 years ago for about the same reasons you dont like it, I believe one should find their own program, whatever works for them. My father has been sober 45 years and still goes to at least 1 meeting a week but he lives AA with this in mind at all times: Principles before Personalities.
Do whatever works for you, the important is that you stay sober and live a happy life. I, too, suffer from depression and last year going through a really bad bout of depression I tried to go back to AA and came to the conclusion that I am better off going to see my therapist and trying to live the principles of AA the way I understand them, I have too much trouble with the Personalities.
One day at a time...it works!
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Default Mar 27, 2010 at 09:14 PM
  #4
My view is that AA is another tool in the treatment tool chest. I believe in an eclectic approach to treatment. Form over substance is pedantic and unuseful. When a particular tool has out-lived its utility, lets move on to one that brings about a better result.
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Default Mar 31, 2010 at 12:38 AM
  #5
No offense, but by referring to AA and it's members as a "cult," "children," and "some idiot," it sounds like you are focusing on the inventory of others, rather than yourself. How can you be so negative about AA when you haven't even had the experience of having a sponsor or working the steps? AA is not about social interaction-- it's about people helping each other to stay sober. Friendships within AA are commonly found, but they are a bonus. You are very negative about AA for someone who hasn't even taken part in the very core of the program-- working the steps in order to practice the spiritual principles, and working with a sponsor in order to COMPLETELY "clean house" in the presence of another. Maybe you should try the steps. It's not like it's gonna kill you. If you hate it so much, they will refund your misery. I thought it was a cult, too... but I kept going back, and I love it. I am very committed to my recovery and practicing principles in all my affairs. When I talk with people who have relapsed, they say that they stopped going to meetings and stopped talking to their sponsor. Others do not relapse, but they are unhappy. I work with some people in AA who have 30+ years clean. They still go to meetings on a daily basis. I do not intend to ever stop going to meetings. Sobriety is fragile-- I don't intend on playing around with anything that could cause it to shatter. I want to protect it in every way possible, and I'm not going to fool around with complacency or arrogance. I don't think AA is another tool in the chest-- it provides us WITH tools-- tools that we don't have access to without working in AA.

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Default Mar 31, 2010 at 06:43 PM
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinksoil View Post
No offense, but by referring to AA and it's members as a "cult," "children," and "some idiot," it sounds like you are focusing on the inventory of others, rather than yourself. How can you be so negative about AA when you haven't even had the experience of having a sponsor or working the steps? AA is not about social interaction-- it's about people helping each other to stay sober. Friendships within AA are commonly found, but they are a bonus. You are very negative about AA for someone who hasn't even taken part in the very core of the program-- working the steps in order to practice the spiritual principles, and working with a sponsor in order to COMPLETELY "clean house" in the presence of another. Maybe you should try the steps. It's not like it's gonna kill you. If you hate it so much, they will refund your misery. I thought it was a cult, too... but I kept going back, and I love it. I am very committed to my recovery and practicing principles in all my affairs. When I talk with people who have relapsed, they say that they stopped going to meetings and stopped talking to their sponsor. Others do not relapse, but they are unhappy. I work with some people in AA who have 30+ years clean. They still go to meetings on a daily basis. I do not intend to ever stop going to meetings. Sobriety is fragile-- I don't intend on playing around with anything that could cause it to shatter. I want to protect it in every way possible, and I'm not going to fool around with complacency or arrogance. I don't think AA is another tool in the chest-- it provides us WITH tools-- tools that we don't have access to without working in AA.
Pinksoil, I agree with a lot that you wrote except that I can tell you that I have been sober for 15 years and for the last 12 years without going to meetings and I am very happy. When I went back about a year ago, everyone I used to know looked at me like I had relapsed and I would tell them I had stayed sober and they would get this weird look on their face like it was not possible. It is possible and happiness can be attained without going to meetings. Most AA members believe that if they dont see someone for a while, that they have relapsed; I know of several people who dont go to meetings and are serene and happy. The periods where I was not happy were when Depression got the best of me, it has nothing to do with AA or meetings.
I want to finish on a positive note. I owe my life to AA, my HP and AA members. I do believe AA works. I do believe everyone would benefit from the program. But please remember this: LIVE AND LET LIVE. One day at a time, it works
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Default Apr 01, 2010 at 11:25 PM
  #7
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Originally Posted by idontknow13 View Post
It is possible and happiness can be attained without going to meetings. Most AA members believe that if they dont see someone for a while, that they have relapsed; I know of several people who dont go to meetings and are serene and happy. The periods where I was not happy were when Depression got the best of me, it has nothing to do with AA or meetings... I owe my life to AA...
idontknow13, that is much what my friend experienced. She used other ways of staying sober once she left AA, but she is very grateful for the launch she got into sobriety with AA's help. She too found her AA friends to be very judgmental once she stopped attending meetings and was instead using other support tools and groups that were just as effective for her. Her AA friends were not interested in her or would not believe she could have success without AA. They "dropped" her--wouldn't even return phone calls, meet for lunch, etc. It was very sad, I think, and the opposite of supportive. I guess I didn't understand why people she knew from AA wouldn't keep being her friend. Is that a rule of AA?

I think part of what contributes to some people's impression that AA is a cult is this undercurrent of "AA is the one true way", whereas there are actually a number of programs or methods that can help a person achieve and maintain sobriety. The "one true way" belief is common in a number of religions and cults, hence I think the association. I am not agreeing with this "AA is a cult" view, but just speculating as to how it arose. I have a friend, for example, who was very active in a particular Christian church, but later found another Christian church that was a better fit for him and so moved to that one. He was ostracized by the first group--people he had thought were very close friends dropped him. It is this element that brought to mind my other friend's experience when she stopped going to AA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinksoil
When I talk with people who have relapsed, they say that they stopped going to meetings and stopped talking to their sponsor. Others do not relapse, but they are unhappy.
Yes, and others do not relapse and they are happy. (for completeness' sake)

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Default Apr 02, 2010 at 05:05 PM
  #8
Congratulations, imapatient, on your sobriety. No matter what any one else says to you the fact remains you quit drinking. Those who feel compelled to elevate form over substance have a problem. My suggestion for you is to not make their problem your problem. Recognize they are dealing with their own insecurities. Smile. Nod your head. And go on doing what has allowed you to remain sober for 21 years.

I tip my hat to you.
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Default Apr 04, 2010 at 07:18 AM
  #9
AA is for those that want it, so its said, I tried it, but found it hindered progress rather than aid it. I left and have never looked back, defining myself by a label isnt my ting.
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Default Apr 04, 2010 at 03:02 PM
  #10
I have mixed feelings about AA - most of them positive.

AA has helped me tremendously during my struggles with alcohol. I believe at the root of it AA is simply extremely good group therapy. It gets me out of the house at night when I want to be drinking. It gives me a network of sober people, some of whom have become good friends, it gives me a safe space to talk about my struggle with alcohol where people understand, and having read the 12 and 12 numerous times, believes it does give me some tools to live my life in a better way. And I am profoundly grateful to my sponsor for helping me work through jeaousy / anger issues by talking about them and rather than letting them fester which would probably have led me to drink.

There are a few things that I don't like about AA.

Some, and by no means all, members can be extremely judgemental about people who struggle by sobriety. I have had extreme difficulty with sobriety and have rekapsed multiple times, but I've kept starting over. I've had people come flat out and tell me that because i can't stay sober, I must not be working the program correctly or hard enough. That to me is not helpful, it makes me want to stay away from meetings.

Second is the belief that AA is the only way. I've gotten flack for going to rehab that was not 12 step based, and get flack for continuing to go there for treatment 2 X a week. I've actually had people in AA warn me away from this hospital treatment program. I have been in a rehab that was entirely 12 step based and it was an unmitigated disaster that I actualy think did my recovery more harm than good. I needed a concurrent disorders program and found one at a hospital that happened to be close to me and it has helped me immensly. Ironically the staff at this hospital is for the most part extremely pro - AA / NA, and they encourage clients to become involved. But they also understand alcoholism, particularly for people with MH issues is more complex than a simple addiction to alcohol and requires work on other underlying issues if long term sobriety is to be acheived.

The thrid thing that bugs me about AA is the insistance about talking only about alcoholosim and that everythin else is an outside issue. I understand the rational behind this and believe it has helped keep AA strong and successfull for so many years. Yet I believe it is limiting. For me my MH treatment is as important to my sobriety as is attendance at meetings yet there are members who tell me it's not relevant. I have also been told by a member that continuing to take one particular psych med would inevitably lead me to relapse. Perhaps, but not taking it could lead me to kill myself and between relapsing and being alive, I'll take the relapse. I remember when I went IP to a psych hospital, I told my sponsor that where I was going and so I wouldn't be able to attend my homegroup for a couple of months nor would I be able to call her as regularly. She said, "Don't worry I won't tell anyone where you are, if anyone asks I'll just tell them you're someplace safe." After all the embarassing things I've done while drunk that my home group members knew about, going IP on a psych ward didn't seem like that big a deal to me, yet she somehow felt that other's shouldn't know. To me the reluctance to talk about mental illness in AA is a huge issue.

But on balance, I'd say AA is major help to me, and I've drastically upped my meeting attendance since my last relapse. I'm not quite doing 90 in 90, but I am averaging 5 - 6 meetings a week, and it's definitely helping me stay sober.

For me combining AA with proper MH care, and a more contemporary approach to addictions treatment seems to work for me, and I try to take the best from all three to find a path that works for me.

---splitimage

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AA style of interacting vs therapy
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Default Apr 05, 2010 at 04:17 PM
  #11
Great Post SplitImage!
I agree with everything you wrote!
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Default Apr 05, 2010 at 05:49 PM
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AA is for those that want it, so its said, I tried it, but found it hindered progress rather than aid it. I left and have never looked back, defining myself by a label isnt my ting.

If you have such a difficult time with labels, stop labeling yourself. You can work the AA problem and not label yourself. You define you, not someone else or some "label."
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Default Apr 13, 2010 at 04:22 PM
  #13
This is a bit off-topic, but I was introduced to AA by a man I was dating, going to the meetings with him. I observed how well he could parrot the philosophy and AA-speak. He was very skilled at it, though dysfunctional and corrupt in every aspect of his life, not contributing one iota to society...a real parasite to all he touched. At the same time, I also observed there were several others there much like him, and who zeroed in on the vulnerable sorts (like myself).
Bottom line with AA is that you have to be very DISCERNING about who you trust. This man who introduced me to AA ultimately broke into my house with a gun and tried to shoot me when I attempted to extricate myself from him. Needless to say, this left me cynical about AA!
I also view it as a cult-like organization, though I admit there are many who swear by it and practice the 12 steps religiously and successfully.
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Default Apr 27, 2010 at 01:19 PM
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Do what works.
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Default Jul 14, 2019 at 05:04 PM
  #15
Thanks for all the sharing about sobriety and AA as well as other options.

I've been sober in AA for almost forty years. For the last five years have been in assisted living and limited in my functions outside. I have stayed sober without meetings but finally got arraigned transportation for two meetings per week. I was able to use the program while not attending meetings. I also was able to use other personal growth disciplines, Buddhism , church, therapy, medical establishment that was a must at time.

There are many things as most of you touched on that are negative in AA communities, meetings and groups. I have complained about as much negative as positive stuff in AA. What I have learned is to take what I want and leave the rest. What is good for me today may not be good for me tomorrow. I have made to basic program, that is the twelve steps and twelve traditions into a personal program for myself. I still need a therapist today, since I go really isolated and emotionally scared is the only way to put it. It is still hard for me to get in the meetings with other people but it gets easier. I do this for two reasons, one is that I do feel a common bound with other alcoholics and this is a plus, the second reason is that I am slowly working my way out of isolation and have a bit more ability to function in society at large. I even went to the gym the other day, all planned by myself.

For those that want to attend AA meetings but have other stuff they like to do...I would suggest some speaker meetings and trying different locations. People are people all over the place. Some good speakers are very entertaining and even fun to listen to.

So in a nut shell from first decision and acceptance that I am an alchoholic, going to three meetings a day, even when I didn't want to and getting a sponsor, doing all of the steps in order and using them as I needed them, making the actions of the tenth step my daily life, to falling flat on my face, with a stroke, probably cause by prescriptions a trusted medical doctor gave me.

I have fought to get off all meds and believe me it is a fight to get these insurance regulated doctors to change or stop a medication. I am back on a much better road of recovery.

I intend to keep a varied social life out in the community as well a stuff I need for my personal growth, not to limit myself to AA social community or any other. I am learning my limits of what I can do and keep myself grounded at times, balanced at times and hope for more improvement as I get near the end of the road...perhaps with a bit less struggle and trudging.

There is a chapter in the Big Book, A Vision For You, that kinda really sums up for me what it is to be an alcoholic and also what the AA program was meant to be, so that is what I would suggest anyone looking for a quick fix on AA read. More will be reveled.
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Default Jul 14, 2019 at 06:12 PM
  #16
AA is for people who need a lot of structure. Being told what to do and how to do it is very reassuring in many cases. Struggling with something as difficult as an addiction warrants whatever kind of help the person can stick to. My dad was an alcoholic and I lived with someone who was 14 years into recovery. I need a lot of structure for my bipolar as well, so I understand. I think posters here have very important info on the subject and I think this thread is one of the best I have ever read on the forums. Huge hugs, people!

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Red face Jul 15, 2019 at 12:10 AM
  #17
Being bipolar and an alcoholic is tough.
I drank 18 drinks today and don't feel sick like I should...
my tolerance is high and I spread them out over 12 hours.
I am home from vacation...need to get back to dieting and limiting my drinking.
This is the most I have drank in for ever.
I need to get to bed as I start work again in the morning.
hubby is in bed already.
It has been a long time that I have drank this much.
2 weeks ago I met with my sponsor and the last thing she said to me was "don't drink"
I drank a lot over the past 2 weeks. I am supposed to call her when I get back and the next AA meeting is wednesday.
It is an agnostic/atheist group meeting.
AA is very religious, which I am not.
I will approach cautiously.
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Default Jul 15, 2019 at 12:06 PM
  #18
When I got sober, they told me that being in the AA community was like a mini world. We all are just people with problems and same as everyone else out there in the larger world.

The best thing about being in AA community is that we have understanding of our drinking problem and our feelings, reasons we needed to drink or drug etc etc Then, we also have the STEPS and sponsor or friends to talk with. Some people in the program simply will not discuss issues but like to give directions and forget weighing your thoughts and feelings then making a decision, others will discuss and allow others to make their own decisions and support them as they can.

With experience meeting various people we can form a personal friendship circle for ourselves, in AA as well as some not AA members. Some AA members do not believe we should need anything else other than the program. Others think we should use what we need for our personal lives, during our sobriety, physical, mental, spiritual.

I have used what I need, including Therapy, some better than others. That said, I was also told and followed directions to put away all my self help books I had for at least a year sober.
To use only the Big Book and the other AA approved books so I could focus on alcoholism and using the steps in my life.

It has been said that when we do our fifth step, it can be done with more than one person. Such as if an issue has to do with our religion and we think a minister or other religious person would be more understanding than our sponsor than we should do that. Sometimes a mother may have stuff to talk about that a person that has never been a parent would really understand and have experiences to draw on.
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Default Jul 15, 2019 at 12:28 PM
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizi View Post
Being bipolar and an alcoholic is tough.
I drank 18 drinks today and don't feel sick like I should...
my tolerance is high and I spread them out over 12 hours.
I am home from vacation...need to get back to dieting and limiting my drinking.
This is the most I have drank in for ever.
I need to get to bed as I start work again in the morning.
hubby is in bed already.
It has been a long time that I have drank this much.
2 weeks ago I met with my sponsor and the last thing she said to me was "don't drink"
I drank a lot over the past 2 weeks. I am supposed to call her when I get back and the next AA meeting is wednesday.
It is an agnostic/atheist group meeting.
AA is very religious, which I am not.
I will approach cautiously.
bizi
Well, I am happy to hear you are actually surviving this bought of drinking.

First thing is of course not drinking. For me this meant just staying away from the FIRST drink or drug. Some like to say just for today and that is what it amounts to. I could never know for sure if I will drink tomorrow but today I do know about, at least in the moment. Without sobriety, I am not able to function and understand to work the program of RECOVERY.

Please read the chapter A Vision For You in the Big Book.

Remember that no one knows what God or god is, we only know what we believe. Some are pushy and self righteous, especially those that have found IT, the power that actually gives us strength for today. Just know they mean well and form you own person spiritual ideals as you grow with the steps and experiences sober.

Hopefully going to more different meetings and finding some that feel right to you would be good. It is always ok to decide whom we talk with in AA and to just leave a situation. Or simply just say I don't talk about that....religion or whatever else it is you may not want to deal with.

Truth be told, I got a sponsor in my first 90 days, but did talk with lots of people at a Alano club but, at a point I decide that I'd rather stick around those that were new to the program...under a year sober. I had more to say and new bee's are more into discussion rather than telling you like they think it is or should be. Some people at times need to be told what to do simply because they have no idea what to do without the drink or drug to help out with thinking.

Please don't let people have the power to push you to drink or use. If you have problems with something someone is saying in a meeting, this is a great way to learn about ourselves. Think about it after the meetings, when we have time and even keep a little notebook of things that trouble or even great things that were said in meetings or with others.

Sending you all the positive energy just for today!
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Default Jul 17, 2019 at 03:37 AM
  #20
call your sponsor and get honest, it will set you free.

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