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Default Jan 26, 2020 at 08:09 AM
  #1
I posted this in a discord server and wanted to save it somewhere for future reference. Edited slightly for clarity and a typo.

I think I'm capable of empathizing with other psychopaths
I'll start with that
And if I'm being honest, I still don't think the "empathy" I'm experiencing is on the same level as what a normal person would experience
And certainly there's a matter of spectrums and where exactly I fall on it
Nevertheless, I have, on rare occasion, given to care about particular people who've traipsed into my life
Those people are, almost always, psychopaths themselves or at least abnormally high in psychopathic traits
And I don't simply mean, "this person thinks the same way I do so they could be more useful to me / are more interesting to me." Like, I still think about them from time to time and hope they're doing well, even though it doesn't benefit me
That's like, empathy ****, right?
I think one of the major barriers I have to empathizing with normal folk is that I just don't ****ing understand them
I do on a conceptual level, sure, and I can predict their behavior simply through observation. But I don't really get them
And a part of that is due to the fact that I experience emotions quite a bit differently than normal
But psychopaths I get, and we perceive and experience emotions the same way
So maybe I'd be able to "connect" with them on some level, at least more so than I could with a normal person.
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Default Jan 26, 2020 at 05:20 PM
  #2
I was thinking about this very thing not too long ago.

I wonder if it’s not that psychopaths lack empathy entirely, but it’s more of a matter of there are far fewer people like themselves to empathize with.

If you can’t understand something that someone is going through then it’s far more difficult to give a ****. That’s just the way it is, whether “normal” people want to admit it or not.
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Default Jan 26, 2020 at 09:22 PM
  #3
I don't have ASPD and I don't consciously use or exploit people but there is a part of me that was apparently dissociated by trauma, or something, and I do not easily or naturally empathize with some things with other other people that the "neurotypicals" apparently think/feel is obvious. But, similarly, there are things about me that no therapist was apparently ever able to get or to empathize with, and that was supposedly their job. Go figure.
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Default Jan 27, 2020 at 01:11 PM
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster View Post
I was thinking about this very thing not too long ago.

I wonder if it’s not that psychopaths lack empathy entirely, but it’s more of a matter of there are far fewer people like themselves to empathize with.

If you can’t understand something that someone is going through then it’s far more difficult to give a ****. That’s just the way it is, whether “normal” people want to admit it or not.
I don't know. Normal people seem to care even if they've never experienced a similar situation. And on occasion, them having experienced something similar makes them less caring, not more. You know, the whole "If I got through it, so can you" mentality, especially in regards to something like high school or some sort of training.

Also, those who are abnormal in other aspects are still capable of empathizing with other people. Usually. It isn't like people with anxiety disorders can only care about other highly anxious people.

I seem to be refuting my own hypothesis. But I guess that's the point of discussion, isn't it?

It probably doesn't help that I still don't really understand what empathy is.
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Default Jan 27, 2020 at 03:57 PM
  #5
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Originally Posted by theoretical View Post
. . .
Nevertheless, I have, on rare occasion, given to care about particular people who've traipsed into my life
Those people are, almost always, psychopaths themselves or at least abnormally high in psychopathic traits
. . . Like, I still think about them from time to time and hope they're doing well, even though it doesn't benefit me
That's like, empathy ****, right?
I think one of the major barriers I have to empathizing with normal folk is that I just don't ****ing understand them
I do on a conceptual level, sure, and I can predict their behavior simply through observation. But I don't really get them
And a part of that is due to the fact that I experience emotions quite a bit differently than normal
But psychopaths I get, and we perceive and experience emotions the same way
. . ..
There a concept in the development of a sense of self, in the theory of Heinz Kohut, that "normal" people at an early age need others to mirror our wonderfulness (grandiosity), others to be strong and powerful when we realize how weak and vulnerable we are (idealization), and the last one, not paid attention to by many other psychologists is "twinship", doing things with other people and thus learning-by-doing how to be a part of the society, as part of one's identity. What you are describing sounds like that to me.

If so, it would be interesting if psychopaths need/want similar others in order to have/develop a sense of self -- even if you don't "care" in the neurotypical way?
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Default Jan 27, 2020 at 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by theoretical View Post
I don't know. Normal people seem to care even if they've never experienced a similar situation. And on occasion, them having experienced something similar makes them less caring, not more. You know, the whole "If I got through it, so can you" mentality, especially in regards to something like high school or some sort of training.


Also, those who are abnormal in other aspects are still capable of empathizing with other people. Usually. It isn't like people with anxiety disorders can only care about other highly anxious people.


I seem to be refuting my own hypothesis. But I guess that's the point of discussion, isn't it?


It probably doesn't help that I still don't really understand what empathy is.

Now that’s interesting. I’ve seen the opposite in “normal” people I’ve been around for long. They don’t “care” as much as they say they do. It’s entirely possible that I’m simply not noticing it, however. It’s pretty hard to notice something that I seem to lack within myself in ways that constitute “giving a damn”.

I don’t understand empathy either. I asked someone to explain it to me in depth quite some time ago as she’s well aware of ... me, as it were. It was one of the funniest conversations her and I ever had, my total lack of comprehension was a sight to behold.
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Default Jan 28, 2020 at 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by here today View Post
There a concept in the development of a sense of self, in the theory of Heinz Kohut, that "normal" people at an early age need others to mirror our wonderfulness (grandiosity), others to be strong and powerful when we realize how weak and vulnerable we are (idealization), and the last one, not paid attention to by many other psychologists is "twinship", doing things with other people and thus learning-by-doing how to be a part of the society, as part of one's identity. What you are describing sounds like that to me.

If so, it would be interesting if psychopaths need/want similar others in order to have/develop a sense of self -- even if you don't "care" in the neurotypical way?
Reminds me of Hegel somewhat.

Maybe you're correct that it has more to do with recognition and development of one's identity than with empathy, because it does seem more complex than simply caring. I feel more engaged when I'm around other psychopaths. With normals, it feels more like I'm just reading from a script, unless there's some other goal involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster View Post
Now that’s interesting. I’ve seen the opposite in “normal” people I’ve been around for long. They don’t “care” as much as they say they do. It’s entirely possible that I’m simply not noticing it, however. It’s pretty hard to notice something that I seem to lack within myself in ways that constitute “giving a damn”.
I've struggled with this as well. While it's certainly possible that a lot of people act as if they care for the sake of appearances, I don't think it's as common as either you or I normally assume. And I think that's simply from a lack of understanding.

When I'm in text chat, I tend to read everything as emotionally flat, even when people are discussing weighty topics such as sexual assault or murder or whatever. Once, such a conversation moved to voice chat, and I was somewhat surprised to hear how much emotion was in people's voices as they were discussing it.

Quote:
I don’t understand empathy either. I asked someone to explain it to me in depth quite some time ago as she’s well aware of ... me, as it were. It was one of the funniest conversations her and I ever had, my total lack of comprehension was a sight to behold.
Same. It still sounds like hokey fairy magic to me. Feel what other people are feeling? Sounds like some psychic mumbo jumbo ********.
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Default Feb 08, 2020 at 06:36 AM
  #8
I've felt similarly before. I've also noticed that empathy is never fully gone. It can be nearly impossible to access, but it's still there. I've heard mixed results with lithium, MDMA, and psychedelics causing "empathy breakthroughs" in people that are rather low on the empathy spectrum.

It's also worth noting that malignant narcissists (depending on how the term is used) can form genuine bonds with each other, despite being incapable or nearly incapable of that level of sentiment with other people. In their case, it seems to be more ego-driven.

I'm not totally immune to affective empathy, I don't know about you. The few times that I've felt it, or at least felt it intensely enough to be conscious of it, have been in situations that mirrored mine almost identically. Not just others with AsPD or Callous-Unemotional traits, either.

I really do think one of the hardest parts of relating to other people is that they're so over-emotional. I have a hard enough time understanding my own stunted emotions. I agree that it's a lot easier to understand patterns in behavior or whatever actions are associated with whatever body language and tone than it is to really grasp and feel what they're feeling when I don't really have a good point of reference.
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Default Mar 12, 2020 at 05:43 PM
  #9
I have meds that can trigger me to feel empathy, and other psychopaths and sociopaths are the one I feel it the strongest with. Even my spouse doesn't trigger my empathy as strongly as other ASPDers.
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