distancing in friendships

I have a tendency, to not put so fine a point on it, to assume other people don't care about me as much as I do about them.

(Yes, I know how hypocritical I am, considering what I said in that other thread. Classic avoidance, different standards for me and for everyone else in the world. )

My therapist challenged me on this, which I hated, but her pushing lead to an insight that I don't know if it's true or not, or if I'm the only weirdo who might find it plausible, or what. But, it could be true, and it might open up something for other people, and despite my reticence to talk about it, hence this huge build up, here goes.

The theory is that any relationship is only as deep as it's shallowest member's level. Deep close relationships are very difficult for avoidants, as you know.

Again, who knows if this applies to anyone else, or even to me, really, but it was a bang up idea.

If I assume someone else doesn't care as much as I do - regardless of reality - then it's "safe" for me to go all in. If the other person is somehow holding back, then it can't tumble out of control.

Let me break down what's bad about that, and why I'm so nervous about posting this.

Okay, but let me start with what's good. If I ever do that to someone, talk like I feel like I'm unimportant to them, that's actually, first of all, complete BS, a mask I'm putting up for protection, and also a good sign of how deeply I feel for them. It's a kind of backhanded compliment.

But what's bad is, if I say it enough someone might actually start to believe it. And that's pretty lame, to say the least. And it's disrespectful, of the person and the friendship. Both of those things could lead to the relationship falling apart.

So the next step for me is, figure out how to feel for someone without the safety net of deluding myself that it's one sided. No idea how I'm ever going to pull that off...

Friendship goal posts always move due to our instability and one friendship is different to another... so what holds you to one friendship may not hold you to another.

I know you're somewhat generalizing and its a good topic to put up and find connection of dots.. but I just see AvPD and relationships filled with so many arguments and counter arguments that would make my head explode...
I fail at relationships so unfortunately my comments are going to be negative and not balanced which is what you don't need on here for good discussion from fellow Avoidants.

Keep digging though bc all you need is a comment from someone to light a bulb to feed thought.

Oh, I definitely see your point. There's no question that each friendship is different and they can't really be compared to each other.

I think one of my greatest faults is overthinking.
(No, really?)

But I just think it's really strange that the closer I get to someone, when I should be feeling more secure, it actually makes me feel more than vulnerable, almost threatened. I'm not describing that right; it's not the same category. It puts pressure on the center of the relationship, and makes it feel more intense than it is.

Then again - all avoidant friendships are intense. The commitment to the friendship an avoidant has to make to counteract the avoidant impulses supersedes almost all other types of relationships out there. There are plenty of married folks who's relationships don't come close to the avoidant friendship level, poor fools.

So to put a damper on that intensity, I fall back on thinking the other person does not care as much as I do. I think that's pretty crappy of me, but I'm aware of that default, and I challenge it whenever I see myself doing it.

I don't only do that with relationships. I have suicidal ideation that has the same effect. Like someone with money troubles thinks, oh if I could only win the lottery, if I get in a super stressful situation I think, well, there could always be some kind of accident that would make everything null and void.

But all that is just muddling the point.

Which is, perhaps avoidant people (or at least me lol) are not as isolated as they think, that more people care more deeply about them than they let themselves recognize, and they do that as a form of self-protection and as a pressure release in order to let the friendships continue.

Perhaps.

No not strange at all, bc the closer you get... the more they know about you, so yes, you're going to feel vulnerable.. or perhaps pull away before you get to that vulnerable stage.

All Avie friendships have a time limit and once the bell rings you remain friends but not with the same commitment as before.

Rather want than be wanted.. much safer to pull away should the situation change.

Yep, i'm lost lol

Of course we're isolated.. we'll I am.
I don't care what people think (well I do) bc my avoidance is stronger than them.. and if they are strong, i will wear them down till they give up.
Sorry about the negativity

I do the same sort of thing.... I hate it, but I'd rather be angry with myself and have some form of a friendship than go all-in and end up without a friendship and distraught.

The times I've opened up I end up being too intense. And then I withdraw. A happy medium just doesn't seem to happen easily, so I am constantly pulling back.

I find it helps me, in its own twisted way, to be able to point out to myself "Well, I didn't try my best, I didn't go all-in, so it's my own fault that this is over" when a friendship ends. Because at least I know WHAT the reason is, instead of wondering what it was I did that time. (Of course, I still think it, but at least I reason with myself). I do the same thing in pretty much all aspects of my life - I just can't go all in because it's too overwhelming when something goes south.

I just have to keep that little bit back to myself - that trust and vulnerability. I can get myself to hand out snipits of them, but it's always practiced and things I can relatively handle.

Oh, yeah. You must be able to blame yourself for every single thing that happened, so better to know ahead of time. I get that move, definitely.

I'm going to do the communication sandwich technique, lol, but the avie version - disagree, agree, then disagree.

I disagree with this, but I think I agree with the intent. If I'm reading you right. lol I think all avoidants are on a pendulum, or a wave. People and passions come and go, get closer and further apart.

I don't agree that the "bell rings" and then it's done forever. I think a lot of times emotional abuse builds up (because, of course, avoidant people "deserve" it) and it tips the scales and the person has hung themselves off the moon and they have to be cut loose. But that's something different.

On the contrary, I think the commitment has to be super deep to even try to work through a pendulum shift, or a wave dip, or whatever you want to call it. The friendship will shift all over the place, sure, and even appear to be superficial at some times. (We know there is no such thing as an actual superficial avoidant friendship - come on, no one wastes their time on those.) But if there isn't a solid anchoring, the whole relationship will just slip away.

And I'm sorry I'm being negative disagreeing with you. I think we might be talking about the same thing, but seeing it differently and describing it differently. I'm sorry if I'm not being clear.

This - omg yes, couldn't have said it better.

Hmmm. Sounds like a challenge. lol

I don't know, of course, but this screams of black and white thinking. 7 billion people on the earth - no one can stand up to your avoidance? I hope you find someone that proves you wrong.

And here's the final issue that I disagree with - the idea that you are negative. Nope, sorry. You're telling the truth. Drives me friggin bonkers when people think that someone with the guts to stand up and speak honestly is negative, just because they aren't fluffing things up (*cough, cough* - lying) in order to be "pleasant."

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now...

If you're avoidant, it's very hard to accept that someone might actually like you, that they aren't simply using you for something, especially when there are about a billion examples that you can latch onto as whatever they are using you for.

(The flip side of that is when someone really is using you, it feels "right," so you don't even notice you're being used. It's a vicious cycle.)

I could probably name half a dozen people right now who consider me a friend (obviously not a close friend) who would be boggled to know that I still think, "Why is that person talking to me?" every single time they say something to me. They give off all the signals that they consider me to be a friend. But that is impossible. I'm not a valid person, I'm not eligible for friendship, or anything else, for that matter. Why don't they know that? No worries, they will figure it out eventually.

That thought process is how the avoidant mind works. It doesn't matter that you want friends, it's impossible. "I can't do it, and they can't want me" is the avoidant mantra.

However, from time to time someone will slip through the cracks. Then the problem becomes, this person wants to interact with me for whatever reason, that's impossible, so it can't possibly be equal. That's the only possible explanation. Then it becomes a situation like the person described above - the avoidance will wear everyone out, so it's just a matter of time before they leave. It doesn't matter what happens, I will screw the friendship up eventually.

Yes, I know, this is messed up thinking. If it was normal in any way, then there wouldn't be a PD diagnosis now would there be? But, since hopefully you can't relate, have I cleared anything up for you?

I'm sure that people are ok with me initially because I'm fairly extroverted despite my social anxiety. I'm also sure that people will eventually reject me when they get to know me because there is something flawed about me. In CBT, they try to teach me that my problems are caused by this "irrational" belief system. But isn't it possible that my beliefs are completely rational? This is why I get stuck with CBT. Deep down, I truly believe I'm inadequate and probably always will be.

It's so funny, I don't even know you and I want to agree that you're being irrational. But then again, I'm 100% positive that the same can be said about me.

Have you worked on black and white thinking? The thing is this - yes, in some parts of your life you will be inadequate. I can't play the tuba. Fact. So I am inadequate there. But in other areas, I am. Is it possible that you are blanketing everything? That if you aren't 100% adequate in all areas, then you are inadequate?

This will make your brain hurt, and this is what therapy is for. I personally would follow it for a little while and then double back to where I started.

But...
Is it okay to be inadequate in some areas but just avoid those areas? Stick with what you know and what you're good at, and let the rest go?