Andrea Yates

Hi,
I'm fairly new here and have bipolar 2, so hope this is the right forum for me to post about this video I watched last night on youtube.

I remember when it happened and was all over the news, but I watched it from a place of compassion or deeper understanding of mental illness (thanks in large part to this site) that I didn't necessarily have 15 years ago.

She was even betrayed by 2 different psychiatrists. She was hospitalized for psychosis and left the hospital relatively stable and one of her drugs was haldol. Upon release, her psychiatrist didn't continue the haldol and she went downhill quickly. Another pdoc made up a story during his testimony involving a TV show that she and her husband often watched together.

The video I watched was called "Crimes of the Century Andrea Yates" on youtube.
If you are easily triggered, may not be the best video to watch.

I don't care what someone's diagnosis is. There is no excuse that justifies murdering another human being, especially your own children. I had post partum psychosis. I've been the victim of severe childhood trauma by a schizophrenic parent. There is no excuse for that was done to me and no excuse if I had, heaven forbid, hurt my own child. Just because you are mentally ill doesn't mean you suddenly have no moral compass. If you want to know where stigma comes from, it comes from situations like this. There should be only two options, not guilty (because there isn't enough evidence), or guilty but mentally ill. If you are found guilty but mentally ill, institutionalize the person for the duration of a criminal sentence. If they improve, send them to jail.

I didn't see Andrea Yates's case or the video to establish any opinion at all, though I likely wouldn't have had enough evidence to even make a firm opinion from that alone. However, I think psychosis is a complex thing. I do believe that there have been cases of high crimes (and even murders) where the perpetrator should be considered not guilty because of insanity. That may still mean the person should be institutionalized in a psych facility for the safety of others and themselves (and rehabilitation), but long-term prison? Surely not in all cases.

Obviously, no one can really know for sure what goes on in another person's brain. That's a real barrier to true understanding of cause. Often, a very psychotic person isn't aware either, or has been taken over by the sickness of psychosis. I believe that in such states, certain types of reasoning or "moral compass" may be lost. It's a tragedy if/when others are hurt as a result, but in such extreme cases, I see the afflicted as hurt and dominated by the illness, too. Yes, in certain cases the afflicted can also be a victim. No one usually asks for such afflictions.

I once posted a blog article called "Hating is not fair". I knew it would be a controversial one. I did, indeed, get some strong negative reactions. One was specifically from a person who seemed to feel that anything could be forgiven EXCEPT if it included a child. In those cases, he wrote that he would be quick to pull a gun and hunt down and kill anyone.

I have a particular interest in issues relating to the justice system, especially as they pertain to the mentally ill.

Given my own experience with psychosis I agree with this. I had absolutely no control over many of my actions. I had no critical thought and my moral compass was not working at all. I blacked out for large portions of my episode.

I do not know this case and it is very triggering for me. I feel individuals must be held accountable for their actions even if mental illness is involved. I was held accountable and I held myself accountable. The method to which that accountability is achieved is what I believe we do not have a good system for as each of these cases are incredibly unique and dependent on factors that are impossible to see with the eye or measure accurately. There is no way to truly know if a patient was completely psychotic or if they had a sense of awareness. We cannot read her thoughts and/or emotions at the time.

I feel I would have answered much differently a year ago. As I told my therapist, you cannot truly understand what it is like to have zero control over your actions unless it happens to you. For me, the best way I can describe it is that it was like I was awake but my brain was dreaming. I simply reacted to various things without thought. I was seeing things that weren't real and made zero sense, but I responded like one does in a dream. We're attempting to make sense of the nonsensical. I am not sure that is entirely possoble to do. It is a miracle I did not hurt or traumatize my family any worse than I did. I am now doing all that I can to avoid any of this happening again. A year ago I had no idea something like this was even possible to experience. The troubling part for anyone in my life is that they can only take me at my word and my actions now that I am aware. There is no guarantee. There is no way to truly know. Only I can know. I do not envy the judge in this case.

Thanks for sharing about this, fern. I did add another sentence since your response that basically agrees that a dangerous person should definitely be institutionalized, but perhaps differently and with insanity considered.

I will add that there is, in my view, a difference between first major episodes crime and any major crimes after a person is aware of their illness. I feel that people aware of their illness must seek treatment to prevent serious future ones. It's a responsibility! However, I also know that many, including myself, that do commit to treatment still have serious episodes, regardless. I would hope that would be considered, as well, but Boy does it get difficult when it comes to judgement!

I could not agree more.

My moral compass was seemingly intact but psychosis itself is tricky. I believed that framing a friend for a crime would save the world because he was secretly the devil. So moral compass, saving the world is better than one persons rights especially if he’s the devil but what did I do really? Not all psychosis is created equal, especially when some people lose insight so they don’t even know they’re psychotic.

You almost have to lock up anyone who has lost touch to that extent but I feel jail is never appropriate because I read about people dying from lack of AC. Antipsychotics take away temperature regulation making it easier to simply die in summer. I feel there needs to be a graduated housing plan with people convicted of crimes starting where they are at mentally. Ie no contact with reality housed in a special prison like psych unit but with correct meds etc and AC. As people return to reality I would imagine more of the classic asylum where you can go outside in fenced areas, color etc.

I’m not sure that anyone who’s killed can ever be returned to society but for smaller transgressions they might.

Ouch! That's a pretty rough statement.

I suppose it is but I mean that society wouldn’t allow it. It’s one thing to lose all bearing and do something accidentally but what’s to stop it from happening again? APs are not a magic bullet you can relapse even with a perfect medication regimen unfortunately. My understanding is that mental illness alone rarely leads to this outcome, it’s typically a combination of conditions that lead to violence often illegal drug use is involved.

Of course there are different societal opinions of what jail is supposed to do, rehabilitation to allow for reform or warehousing to keep society protected from the criminal. In the US it’s primarily warehousing. Some of the mass shooters have been found to have problems such as tumors in their amygdala’s so it’s not really their fault but without surgical options they are likely to try again. So even thought they have a biological issue they must be warehoused to protect society.

To say someone doesn't know right from wrong and has been stripped of their moral compass is the same as saying they are less than human. What makes humans unique is our moral compass. Strip that away and you have an animal. Think about that. Designating people with mental illness being like animals. It's sickening. It's the worst stigma.

I was so out of it I wasn’t eating or drinking....basic functions, I became dehydrated.....these are instincts and even an animal knows to drink water. So perhaps I was less than an animal by that logic? Or perhaps I was a very ill human....

I've been so psychotic I've had to be restrained for my own safety. I was still morally responsible for my actions. I still had to be held accountable. To not do that strips dignity. That's what stigma does. Tries to strip dignity. It is treating this woman with dignity to hold her fully accountable for murdering her children.

for better or for worse, I think something like 49/50 states offer ngri (not guilty by reason of insanity) and I think all 50 offer 'guilty, but mentally ill.' i am probably wrong about this, but I think the -1- state that doesn't do NGRI, ever, is Iowa (?), mainly because different 'experts' came to wildly different conclusions....im thinking the cheaper co$t of prisons is maybe another factor (call me cynical).

how it plays out has more to do with the culture within a given area than the needs of the defendant. where I live, NGRI cases are a little bit more common than they once were, mainly because what they do is NGRI the case, keep them at what's left of the state hospital till they're stable(ish), then its court supervised treatment for however long the trial judge decides or the plea agreement dictates. by and large, this approach means that NGRI cases don't make the headlines, because its not so much for the mega-felonies (like, say, killing 5 kids), more for cases where someone just slipped thru the cracks, did something felony-level stupid, and (punitive...) treatment makes more sense. I can think of -1- case that made the papers in which a murder case was handled thru NGRI. even with the emphasis on 'recovery,' blah blah blah, I'm thinking that individual may never leave the state hospital.

'guilty, but mentally ill' has been a bust, here where i live. it often means 2x, 3x, the punishment. sometimes, there's the 'factors in mitigation,' with 'mental defect' playing a role. when that happens, my understanding is that a skilled lawyer might be able to get a conviction on a lesser charge (I kinda sorta followed a case in another part of the state...started as -1st degree murder- ... ended as 'voluntary manslaughter,' largely because of the 'mental defect' used as a bargaining chip).

i keep tabs on these things because it interests me...the intersection of society, the law, and psychiatry...and (not supposed to bring these up...) race, gender, and social class.

as for andrea yates... I think she'll probably end up confined to a hospital, indefinitely. i don't think its a good thing....i think she probably could be treated, given a new lease on life after a while...but, hey; the whole "tough on crime" and/or "don't do the crime if you can't do the time!" approach to criminal deviance still has a stranglehold on the US legal system.

a couple cases have made the papers...both female....in other states, where they were confined to state hospitals for crimes of violence against family members, and then they were released, and they killed....family members. oops. :-( just goes to show...."good patients" aren't always "good people."

A person with a well honed moral compass can experience a malfunction. My moral compass was intact for 38 years and it did not work properly one night. I almost lost everything I hold dear and I had no idea I was even doing it.

I watched as my children literally disappeared before my eyes. I instantly believed my husband was demonic and the only way to bring my children back was to fight him so I threw a table at him. That was my reality.

What really happened is that my husband opened a door and hid my kids behind it to protect them from me because he realized at that point I was severely compromised and hallucinating. He turned back around to find me lunging for him and screaming at him to bring my children back. He called 911 and I was taken from my home.

I would never attack my husband in my right mind. He is am very good man. I know this through and through. He has never done anything remotely evil in the 15+ years I have been with him. He also knows I would never hurt him intentionally. He knows I was sick and completely out of my mind.

I was given meds at the hospital and came out of my psychotic state almost instantly. I could not believe what I had done as the images began coming back to me in pieces. I have never been so horrified at anything in my life. I would NEVER choose to scare or hurt my family in any way in my right mind. I never had before. I hope to never do it again and I'm fighting like Hell to make sure it never happens in the future.

On the one hand I was a mother fighting to be with her children. Morally, that seems sound. However, in my experience your compass cannot point true north unless you pair it with rational thought. I lost my ability to think rationally or critically. My decision making was totally impaired. My reality was altered and I chose to harm my husband. My actions harmed my children and I would have known that if I had been able to think. If that makes me less than human or an animal in someone's eyes so be it. I am grateful though that the people who love me can accept that I was sick.

You were a very ill human. However, you didn't kill 6 children or shoot up a school. You were ill. You needed help. You didn't hurt anyone else and then say it's not my fault. That's the difference.

One observation I have made in recent years is that some people with mental illness are willing to stigmatize other people with mental illness. The rationale is sometimes "Well, I'm not THAT mentally ill." Or "I would never do THAT, so my mental illness doesn't deserve to be stigmatized, but THEIRS does."

It is true that most people with mental illness are peaceful and law abiding citizens. Way too often, people with mental illness are the victims of crime and abuse. However, some people with mental illness do commit crimes sometimes. Sometimes crimes that the "morally superior" deem "evil".

Religions and/or cultures, themselves, shape people's views. That's an undebatable fact. But sometimes they also narrow views and obfuscate. Some may take offense to the sentence just before this, however, many of those same people would not find it offensive to say about other people's religions or cultures. This also applies to some people's attitudes towards the more scientific-minded.

I personally considered the fact that I could’ve hurt someone extensively. How would I want to be treated? Not exactly prison, more like a place where you could do whatever you wanted, color, swim, etc but you could never leave because how would you live with it if you knew it could happen and it did happen again. Imo the second one is on you, but that’s why the first requires containment.

I experienced this while I was in IP. It is a very interesting dynamic. I was first put in a wing with mostly people suffering from Schizophrenia. I learned a lot while I was there. I was no longer hallucinating, but I connected with the people there. They were wonderful and very tormented at the same time. They were my friends and supporters for the few days I was there.

My doctor later moved me out to a women's trauma unit because abuse memories were involved in the triggering of my episode. I connected with many of the women there as well. However, I noticed a lot of judgment there of the patients in other wings. There was a belief of 'us' vs. 'them'. I had found a home in both places. I felt it was important to remain as humble as possible and strive for empathy for all. To me, everyone was the same. Human.

i dunno. i kinda think that even -some- people who kill people get NGRI'd should be released, eventually. i mean...if someone had a downward spiral, ended up shooting somebody, turns out they were teetering on the edge of psychosis for a while, nobody helped...why keep them indefinitely if they -can- be treated and they -can- be rehabilitated? i read a 1st hand NGRI account from a lady in another state...downward spiral, 2 or 3 short lived marriages, not a -bad person- , just sick...got ever more sick...ended up shooting a stranger because of paranoia or something, I dunno. anyway, it sounds like the state hospital wherever she was kept her for 10ish years, she got out, she can deal with things now, and I'm thinking...

well, I'm OK with it. I think. beats locking her up in prison for 30 years and expecting her to function in that environment, then somehow function in society with minimal support. of course, if US prisons were revamped to be more about rehabilitation vs creating more clever, hardened criminals...

maybe the treatment vs prison debate wouldn't be such a big deal, anyway? undoubtedly, there are some people who just should not be in society. hospitals, prisons, whatever...its risk management. that doesn't mean prisons should be hell holes, even for people with long sentences. of course...state hospitals can be hellish, too....worse in some areas than others, of course.

blah. honestly, this discussion has taken a turn for the horribly depressing. :-(

I don't see it as all depressing. As slow as changes often are, I actually see some positives happening in the future.

A while back, I read a book called "Crazy: A Father's Search Through America's Mental Health Madness", by Pete Earley. Pete Earley is a journalist whose son, then a young adult, had his first psychotic manic break and went into a stranger's house and destroyed a lot of the property within. His son was faced with a jail sentence. Of course Pete Earley was desperate to prevent that. But putting that aside, it inspired him to look at the issue of the mentally ill in jails and prisons. What he discovered was disturbing. That book inspired my interest in this topic. Along the way, however, I also discovered people who are making improvements. One such person is Bryan Stevenson. You can look him up, if you're interested, but I will just conclude with a quote of his that I like.

“I’ve come to understand and to believe that each of us is more than the worst thing we’ve ever done. I believe that for every person on the planet. I think if somebody tells a lie, they’re not just a liar. I think if somebody takes something that doesn’t belong to them, they’re not just a thief. I think even if you kill someone, you’re not just a killer. And because of that, there’s this basic human dignity that must be respected by law.” – Bryan Stevenson

Bryan Stevenson has been a hero, in my view. He's given many talks, including a TED Talk and as a guest on the old Charlie Rose program on PBS.[What people think of Charlie Rose is totally irrelevant to this.] Bryan has written books, including one called "Just Mercy: A Story of Justice and Redemption". His quote above applies to everyone. Everyone.