[Twilight1227]

Can you have both disorders, How do I know for sure, What is the difference

[childofchaos831]

Bipolar is a mood disorder and borderline is a personality disorder so yes, you can have both. Just like you can also have an anxiety disorder or PTSD. They are different types of disorders.

Edit to say: I can elaborate more, in a science-y way, if you want me to...

[~Christina]

Bipolar is a mood order and can shift for no apparent reason or a situation might happen to start it. Bipolar shifts lasts a couple weeks, borderline is more many mood changes in a day or 2 .... Fall and spring are tough times for me so it’s a definite chemical imbalance.

Borderline is more reactions to situations, like your suppost to meet your friend for lunch and they cancel last minute, of course it would be upsetting but if were to have an extreme rage-y reaction and it ruin your whole day it could be borderline.. people with borderline also have trouble with relationships of all types , there’s lots of push and pull. One min you push someone away usually in a Mean or cold way but then you feel abandoned and your wanting that person to come back, also manipulation to get people to do what you want.

Yes it quite common to have both

[bpcyclist]

Borderline personality disorder is a disorder of emotion regulation. It actually is waaay different from bipolar disorder in many, many ways. But they do sometimes get confused.

[Gabyunbound]

I think the two disorders are vastly different, but that doesn't prevent too many providers from mixing the two up. Though some say that some T's and pdocs prefer not to diagnose BPD because of the stigma, and will then diagnose Bipolar Disorder instead. Frankly, I don't know how common this is.

The core criteria for those with BPD is fear of abandonment. This can cause a whole host of interpersonal issues. And here we come to 'mood.' Those with BPD will have their mood enormously affected by interpersonal issues, even if it's for example, someone not returning your call, or not as soon as you would like. Some push people away in order to not get abandoned and then will do anything and everything to get that person back once they have decided they've had enough.

Bipolar Disorder is not a disorder of interpersonal relationships, though we can have problems with relationships just like anyone else can. Depression and/or hypo/mania can be produced by seemingly nothing at all, or lack of sleep, or stress, etc. Sometimes interpersonal relationships can be a source of stress, and therefore could lead to an episode, but you wouldn't have this push-pull, I love you-I hate you issue. Some people with BPD can also be volatile when it comes to anger and others feel like they have to walk on eggshells to not trigger them.

Also, those with Bipolar Disorder have episodes that are persistent, not fleeting: they will last for weeks, not a day, or less. They don't pinball between one mood and another. In fact, I wouldn't describe them so much as 'moods' as episodes; it is an episodic disorder whose episodes are generally not, unlike with BPD, triggered by interpersonal issues.

I suspect it's more common for those with Bipolar Disorder to have some traits of BPD, than to meet the full criteria. I think it's unusual for people to have full-blown BPD and Bipolar Disorder together, but that's just my opinion. People can have all kinds of co-morbid disorders, but BPD and BP are so very different, it's just hard for me to imagine it being common to have both.

[*Beth*]

This winter I've been reading current articles written by psychiatric researchers. The articles (my pdoc referred me to them) state that the DSM5 definition of BP is lacking for the reason that BP moods can shift with a 24 hour period. Now, that doesn't mean every mood change that happens within a day is symptomatic of BP. But when the moods are outside the realm of "normal", and are clearly manic, depressed, or mixed state they can be attributed to BP. Sometimes the moods are triggered by an event, sometimes not. For me, it feels like a switch being flipped, hard and sure.

According to what I've read the bottom line is that there are more and more psych researchers who believe that the definition of BP should be extended. I wonder if, some day, there will be more specific types of BP than there are now?

With regard to BPD - there are times when PTSD can mimic BPD. The most important core symptom of BPD, as I understand it, is the "I hate you/Don't leave me" behavior...and all the manipulations that occur with that behavior.

My mom was a textbook Borderline. She had every symptom of the disorder, right down the list. And her symptoms were to the extreme. To witness her frantic attempts to avoid what she perceived as being abandoned were hell for me to go through (she became entirely self-centered and demanding, as a tantruming toddler would be), cruel, desperately needy...it was very difficult to know whether to avoid her entirely while she went through a powerful episode of I HATE YOU! DON'T LEAVE ME! -or to cry for her because the self-torture she went through was heart-wrenching. That said, her vicious hate manifested in severe emotional and physical abuse and acting out that was violent and dangerous for her and for anyone in her presence.

To me, when I experience someone with BPD there is no doubt that the person has a personality disorder, as opposed to a mood disorder. Of course, anyone can have some overlapping symptoms, but I'm referring to a full-on dx of BPD as opposed to a dx of BP.

I've located 1 of the articles online that my psychiatrist gave to me on paper. I find this one especially informative. It was written by a woman who is a GP.

Please note that the article can be upsetting and triggering for some of us. This is the thesis of the article, however:

My mood may swing from one part of the day to another. I may wake up low at 10 am, but be high and excitable by 3 pm. I may not sleep for more than 2 hours one night, being full of creative energy, but by midday be so fatigued it is an effort to breathe.

>TRIGGER LINK<
On madness: a personal account of rapid cycling bipolar disorder

Someone (Cashart, I think?) posted the link to a TV show that profiled a woman with BP...I enjoyed it because it was validating without being too heavy. If I can find that link, I'll repost it, or maybe Cashart will see this.
Here's the info (thank you Cashart):

Modern Love, This is a show on Amazon Prime and the episode listed above stars Anne Hathaway as a woman struggling from bipolar disorder. It is so well written and performed. I highly recommend it! __________________

For what it's worth, just to muddy the waters even more. I don't have off hand articles but there is a lot of comorbidity with personality disorders and bipolar. Take that for what you will -- perhaps it's an attempt to explain symptoms otherwise not falling under the realm of bipolar, or perhaps they're so similar they just get tacked together. Whatever it may be, there are higher instances of both existing in one individual. Just for what it's worth, according to my research which may not be to par.

[Wild Coyote]

Originally Posted by MarcusAurelius

For what it's worth, just to muddy the waters even more. I don't have off hand articles but there is a lot of comorbidity with personality disorders and bipolar. Take that for what you will -- perhaps it's an attempt to explain symptoms otherwise not falling under the realm of bipolar, or perhaps they're so similar they just get tacked together. Whatever it may be, there are higher instances of both existing in one individual. Just for what it's worth, according to my research which may not be to par.

HI Marcus!
I am trying to understand your post.
Could you clarify, please:

"Whatever it may be, there are higher instances of both existing in one individual."

As for being similar and getting tacked together, many people have this thought. I have found pdocs who truly know the difference, do not have any reason to tack BP and a PD together. Every pdoc I have ever talked with about this, says the difference is very clear. (That said, there are instances where pdocs disagree on the dx of the same patient. )

I, personally, think it is the armchair pdocs, like us, who tend to muck it up amongst ourselves, more than it is mucked up for the experienced pdocs.

It is good to have you posting again!
I hope to see you around more.

Originally Posted by Wild Coyote

HI Marcus!
I am trying to understand your post.
Could you clarify, please:

"Whatever it may be, there are higher instances of both existing in one individual."

As for being similar and getting tacked together, many people have this thought. I have found pdocs who truly know the difference, do not have any reason to tack BP and a PD together. Every pdoc I have ever talked with about this, says the difference is very clear. (That said, there are instances where pdocs disagree on the dx of the same patient. )

I, personally, think it is the armchair pdocs, like us, who tend to muck it up amongst ourselves, more than it is mucked up for the experienced pdocs.

It is good to have you posting again!
I hope to see you around more.

I guess I was being a bit eccentric with my wording-- I just meant comorbidity of BPD with Bipolar is something that has been at least studied from my research with some prevalence, as well as any personality and mood disorder combo. I think there is some controversy with it as well.

[Wild Coyote]

Originally Posted by BethRags

This winter I've been reading current articles written by psychiatric researchers. The articles (my pdoc referred me to them) state that the DSM5 definition of BP is lacking for the reason that BP moods can shift with a 24 hour period. Now, that doesn't mean every mood change that happens within a day is symptomatic of BP. But when the moods are outside the realm of "normal", and are clearly manic, depressed, or mixed state they can be attributed to BP. Sometimes the moods are triggered by an event, sometimes not. For me, it feels like a switch being flipped, hard and sure.

According to what I've read the bottom line is that there are more and more psych researchers who believe that the definition of BP should be extended. I wonder if, some day, there will be more specific types of BP than there are now?

With regard to BPD - there are times when PTSD can mimic BPD. The most important core symptom of BPD, as I understand it, is the "I hate you/Don't leave me" behavior...and all the manipulations that occur with that behavior.

My mom was a textbook Borderline. She had every symptom of the disorder, right down the list. And her symptoms were to the extreme. To witness her frantic attempts to avoid what she perceived as being abandoned were hell for me to go through (she became entirely self-centered and demanding, as a tantruming toddler would be), cruel, desperately needy...it was very difficult to know whether to avoid her entirely while she went through a powerful episode of I HATE YOU! DON'T LEAVE ME! -or to cry for her because the self-torture she went through was heart-wrenching. That said, her vicious hate manifested in severe emotional and physical abuse and acting out that was violent and dangerous for her and anyone in her presence.

To me, when I experience someone with BPD there is no doubt that the person has a personality disorder, as opposed to a mood disorder. Of course, anyone can have some overlapping symptoms, but I'm referring to a full-on dx of BPD as opposed to a dx of BP.

I've located 1 of the articles online that my psychiatrist gave to me on paper. I find this one especially informative. It was written by a woman who is a GP.

Please note that the article can be upsetting and triggering for some of us. This is the thesis of the article, however:

My mood may swing from one part of the day to another. I may wake up low at 10 am, but be high and excitable by 3 pm. I may not sleep for more than 2 hours one night, being full of creative energy, but by midday be so fatigued it is an effort to breathe.

>TRIGGER LINK<
On madness: a personal account of rapid cycling bipolar disorder

Someone (Cashart, I think?) posted the link to a TV show that profiled a woman with BP...I enjoyed it because it was validating without being too heavy. If I can find that link, I'll repost it, or maybe Cashart will see this.

Hi BethRags,

I am sorry you have had a childhood of emotional chaos due to your mom's illness. It had to be so very difficult. I had an MI/alcoholic parent and it was so heart-wrenching. We want to help them and also feel a need to protect ourselves, etc. I am sure you have done a lot of work to put things into perspective to heal, to overcome and to go on to have a healthier life for yourself. While my heart goes out to you, especially to young BethRags, I also want to congratulate you.

You make some interesting points. I hope to read the link you have noted.

I agree there will likely be more subcategories for BP in the DSM in the future.

I also feel there will be more information concerning BPD also being on a "spectrum.' While many may have a BPD trait(s), they may not have full-blown BPD. I also feel we will see a change in the name of what is now referred to as BPD.

I am all for a movement to change the name and to educate people in order to reduce the stigma associated with BPD.

Thanks for your informative post.

[Wild Coyote]

Originally Posted by MarcusAurelius

I guess I was being a bit eccentric with my wording-- I just meant comorbidity of BPD with Bipolar is something that has been at least studied from my research with some prevalence, as well as any personality and mood disorder combo. I think there is some controversy with it as well.

Oh, I see.

This is an interesting topic!

I hear this often. I agree there is controversy.

I just wonder if there is any more prevalence of any PD amongst people with mood disorders?

Your findings are interesting. I have never found any studies to show the prevalence of PD with mood disorders.

I have heard people say a lot and/or write an opinion.

I wonder if there is any more prevalence of PD in any MI than in the general public?

it's an interesting question.

[*Beth*]

Originally Posted by Wild Coyote

Hi BethRags,

I am sorry you have had a childhood of emotional chaos due to your mom's illness. It had to be so very difficult. I had an MI/alcoholic parent and it was so heart-wrenching. We want to help them and also feel a need to protect ourselves, etc. I am sure you have done a lot of work to put things into perspective to heal, to overcome and to go on to have a healthier life for yourself. While my heart goes out to you, especially to young BethRags, I also want to congratulate you.

Thank you, WC You are so kind. I am also sorry that you also went through a painful childhood - and have clearly worked through painful issues, broken cycles.



My step-father was a mentally ill alcoholic, abusive in every way...ugh. Not a spectacular childhood. But yes, I am finally working on these things with a talented therapist.

As you mentioned, so much of the healing we have to do (if we choose to) is knowing when to give and when to stop giving.

I wish I would have learned about healthy boundaries earlier in life. But, better late than never.

You make some interesting points. I hope to read the link you have noted.

Yes, the article is informative, but I also want to encourage the show Cashart suggested. It covers BP in a way that isn't heavy or triggering, but they definitely get the point across.

I agree there will likely be more subcategories for BP in the DSM in the future.

Yes. I wonder when the DSM6 is released?

I also feel there will be more information concerning BPD also being on a "spectrum.' While many may have a BPD trait(s), they may not have full-blown BPD. I also feel we will see a change in the name of what is now referred to as BPD.

I am all for a movement to change the name and to educate people in order to reduce the stigma associated with BPD.

So am I! I feel so very bad for those who are stigmatized by the BPD label. I've read some blog posts that suggest renaming BPD "Emotional Regulation Disorder" or something similar.

I feel bad and kind of wince when I tell therapists that my mom had BPD. The reaction is almost always, "Ooooohhh..." Such stigma! Understandable in certain ways - but my mom (and others with BPD) almost always have a very sensitive, gentle and deeply loving side, too.


Thanks for your informative post.
Aw, you are so welcome

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Wild Coyote]

I just want to say:

I know there is a lot of stigma with a BPD diagnosis.
I am very concerned about anyone with a BPD diagnosis feeling hopeless.

I want to let people know that there is a lot of hope for recovery. I have seen two friends totally transform their lives by learning to apply DBT and mindfulness to their lives. It took them a couple of years of ongoing classes to "master" the skills. It was amazing to see the changes in them and in their lives! They just keep getting better and better!
Don't give up!