[Achy Turtle Armor]

First, my questions, followed by the details. I apologize in advance for the length.

Do I have the right to intervene and point out to my friend or her therapist where I think mistakes are being made? Or should I mind my own business and let things take their course.?

I'm concerned that I'm going to seem like I'm obsessing on this but I'm really not. What is happening is that I am constantly reminded of or told about things. What the hell am I talking about? The inappropriate "boundaries" my friend Sue has with her therapist, Jane. (names are changed)

Quick background. Sue is a young woman who I have met in a DBT group. Jane is her therapist. Sue and I are kind of drawn to one another because we understand the intensity of the attachment we have towards our therapists.

I have been dealing with this kind of attachment since at least high school and specifically with my therapists since around 2002. In that time I have had 4 therapists and 2 psychiatrists. I honestly believe that I have finally landed on one with ideal boundaries. Not too hard and not too soft. Up to now though, I've had a wide spectrum of boundaries to traverse.

I would never claim that I am an expert in this subject but I have learned a lot over the years. My first lesson was when I went to Menninger. It was pointed out to me that the relationship I had with the therapist I had back home was very unhealthy and not good for me. I won't explain the details of what I have learned so far.

So here's where I struggle. This particular area is where I see similarities between Sue and me so when I hear about the things Sue's therapist does with or for her, I am flabbergasted. I would be lying if I did not say that I wish my therapist would do some of these things but I hope that I have come far enough to say to my therapist, "I think that you painting my nails confuses me and makes me feel like we are friends when I know that you are only my therapist so this should stop." My emotion mind thinks that I want to spend every moment of my day with my T, but my wise mind says that first it would f*** up my head and I think eventually I would have enough of her... But first my head would be totally effed up.

Now I just want to list the things that I know, or Sue says, that Jane has done with her. The first thing I learned was that they did a "fun run" together. I saw some photos of them doing this together as well. Then there is something about a blanket that Sue has that Jane washes for her so it smells like Jane. Let's see, they often do therapy outside of the office over a meal at places like Moe's. Jane ALWAYS gives Sue a necklace of hers to wear when they are apart for a week or more. Jane has gone to a lab appointment with Sue to hold her hand while she has blood drawn. It wasn't allowed at the lab but apparently they hugged for a long time after in the parking lot until Sue could stop crying. Jane has come to Sue's work and taken pictures of her doing something that was a challenge for Sue. When Sue worked at Disney, Jane used Sue's discount for hotel and entrance to the park. Recently, Jane had a special bracelet made for Sue for Christmas I think. Jane, who was an Olympic athlete, has also recently gone to Sue's diving practice to give pointers to Sue and her trainer. Today, I learned that Jane paints Sue's nails for her.That's a lot of inappropriate stuff for a therapist to do with a client. There's probably more I don't know about.

So why am I reacting to this? Well, I have been friendly with Sue because she is a good person who has a lot of issues like a lot of us. I have empathy for her and I try to help her when she asks for help. I get frustrated because I KNOW that she struggles as intensely as she does partly because Jane's lack of boundaries makes life more difficult than better. For some reason, this professional can't see what is so bleeding obvious. Her behavior f***s with her head confusing Sue as to the nature of their relationship. Jane also makes her own therapeutic relationship with Sue more difficult and she is making me want to distance myself from her. Not only am I frustrated with Sue's inability to grow due to the type of relationship she has with Jane, but remember that I am mentally unstable as well and it hurts that I don't have a fraction of that with my T. Again, I reiterate that my wise mind is thankful for my T. and her appropriate boundaries. I don't want to be confused like Sue surely is.

[Achy Turtle Armor]

I think I have the answer to my own question. I'm going to stay out of Sue's relationship with her T. I will try to steer our conversations away from her T. I will start there. See where that goes. I guess sometimes people need to sit back and let things happen. Just hope for the best.

[Misfit Toy]

Although I, too, think these situations are strange for the therapist/patient relationship, I am not sure how much you should say. She probably isn't in a place where she could hear you anyway. It would probably just strain your relationship with her. Now if she asks or questions this subject, she would be asking for your opinion on that specific topic. Otherwise, I would do what you suggested and steer away. Better to preserve the friendship and possibly be of help later.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by Achy Turtle Armor

First, my questions, followed by the details. I apologize in advance for the length.

Do I have the right to intervene and point out to my friend or her therapist where I think mistakes are being made? Or should I mind my own business and let things take their course.?

I'm concerned that I'm going to seem like I'm obsessing on this but I'm really not. What is happening is that I am constantly reminded of or told about things. What the hell am I talking about? The inappropriate "boundaries" my friend Sue has with her therapist, Jane. (names are changed)

Quick background. Sue is a young woman who I have met in a DBT group. Jane is her therapist. Sue and I are kind of drawn to one another because we understand the intensity of the attachment we have towards our therapists.

I have been dealing with this kind of attachment since at least high school and specifically with my therapists since around 2002. In that time I have had 4 therapists and 2 psychiatrists. I honestly believe that I have finally landed on one with ideal boundaries. Not too hard and not too soft. Up to now though, I've had a wide spectrum of boundaries to traverse.

I would never claim that I am an expert in this subject but I have learned a lot over the years. My first lesson was when I went to Menninger. It was pointed out to me that the relationship I had with the therapist I had back home was very unhealthy and not good for me. I won't explain the details of what I have learned so far.

So here's where I struggle. This particular area is where I see similarities between Sue and me so when I hear about the things Sue's therapist does with or for her, I am flabbergasted. I would be lying if I did not say that I wish my therapist would do some of these things but I hope that I have come far enough to say to my therapist, "I think that you painting my nails confuses me and makes me feel like we are friends when I know that you are only my therapist so this should stop." My emotion mind thinks that I want to spend every moment of my day with my T, but my wise mind says that first it would f*** up my head and I think eventually I would have enough of her... But first my head would be totally effed up.

Now I just want to list the things that I know, or Sue says, that Jane has done with her. The first thing I learned was that they did a "fun run" together. I saw some photos of them doing this together as well. Then there is something about a blanket that Sue has that Jane washes for her so it smells like Jane. Let's see, they often do therapy outside of the office over a meal at places like Moe's. Jane ALWAYS gives Sue a necklace of hers to wear when they are apart for a week or more. Jane has gone to a lab appointment with Sue to hold her hand while she has blood drawn. It wasn't allowed at the lab but apparently they hugged for a long time after in the parking lot until Sue could stop crying. Jane has come to Sue's work and taken pictures of her doing something that was a challenge for Sue. When Sue worked at Disney, Jane used Sue's discount for hotel and entrance to the park. Recently, Jane had a special bracelet made for Sue for Christmas I think. Jane, who was an Olympic athlete, has also recently gone to Sue's diving practice to give pointers to Sue and her trainer. Today, I learned that Jane paints Sue's nails for her.That's a lot of inappropriate stuff for a therapist to do with a client. There's probably more I don't know about.

So why am I reacting to this? Well, I have been friendly with Sue because she is a good person who has a lot of issues like a lot of us. I have empathy for her and I try to help her when she asks for help. I get frustrated because I KNOW that she struggles as intensely as she does partly because Jane's lack of boundaries makes life more difficult than better. For some reason, this professional can't see what is so bleeding obvious. Her behavior f***s with her head confusing Sue as to the nature of their relationship. Jane also makes her own therapeutic relationship with Sue more difficult and she is making me want to distance myself from her. Not only am I frustrated with Sue's inability to grow due to the type of relationship she has with Jane, but remember that I am mentally unstable as well and it hurts that I don't have a fraction of that with my T. Again, I reiterate that my wise mind is thankful for my T. and her appropriate boundaries. I don't want to be confused like Sue surely is.

Admitting I did not read beyond your question...

my views are here in the USA we have privacy laws and such that any one is free to seek out their own treatment providers and what goes on with the treatment provider and their clients is solely between them. I have had friend who have talked with me about their treatment providers and their treatments and so forth.

It all boils down to I can have my opinions and I may not like what my friends tell me about their treatment providers and treatments but I am not the one behind the closed door. which means I only know the details of what my friends are telling me. lets be honest here sometimes everyone at some point does embellish or down plays or takes out of context what goes on with their treatment providers. not to mention misunderstandings. I have learned that when friends tell me about their treatment providers and what goes on, to remember Im not getting the whole story. theres my friends story, the treatment providers story and theres the meeting in the middle non biased and the truth of what goes on behind the closed doors. since i am getting only one out of 3 sides of the story I stay out of what goes on, I support my friends in how they are "feeling" and make suggestions of how they can feel better about the situation like suggesting they call their treatment provider and tell them that they are feeling this or that and working out the problem with their treatment provider.

my suggestion would be to support how your friend is feeling and suggest that ......if...... they (the friend) feels their client therapist relationship is not what it should be to contact the treatment provider or the treatment providers supervisor.

[Caprinaholic]

Have you talked to your own therapist about this? Since they're good about boundaries, they might have some input about whether you can be helpful in this situation, or if you should distance yourself for your own protection.

At my session last week I asked about bringing my boyfriend in occasionally for couple's counseling, because we both have things that we're working on, and she said it could be really helpful for me to offer a third party point of view on things that he may not realize and therefore hasn't been discussing with his own therapist. But with us dating it's different from a friendship, since we're already emotionally invested in each other.

[Achy Turtle Armor]

I really appreciate the replies I have received here. I will answer some questions and respond to some comments. First, long posts turn me off mostly because of my short attention span so I understand if the post was not fully read.

I have decided to preserve the friendship and offer support when asked instead of unsolicited judgement. I did speak with my therapist about this. My therapist knows Sue because my T is a co-facilitator in our DBT group. She has served as a temporary T for Sue on occasion. Anyway, my T is uncomfortable with what Sue reports about her relationship with her own T. For now, my T says, "I don't like to do my own laundry so I'm not going to try to do anyone else's laundry." My T has also said to me, in the past, that she doesn't want to know the name of my first T because the things I have told her are things that should've been reported. My point is that I think she struggles with what to do in relation to what she has heard Sue say. We both acknowledge that we are only hearing Sue's account.

In summary, we are minding our own business at the moment and I don't want to use anymore of my time in therapy talking about this.

[Caprinaholic]

I am concerned about the reporting issue as well. Your history with your previous T is over and done with, but if what Sue's telling you is accurate, her therapist is crossing a line and should theoretically know that, and if your T knows them she may have a professional duty to intervene at some point. If that's the case maybe she can handle it through official channels, so it doesn't affect your friendship.

[sarahsweets]

While it does sound like there are some hazy boundaries your friendship would be damaged if you said anything to her.

[MDDBPDPTSD]

I would tell my therapist that I think my friend is being harmed by her therapist. I know I had a similar situation several years ago and it genuinely concerned me so I told my therapist about my concerns. She then acted (I don’t know what she did exactly) and less than a week later that therapist was no longer practicing. So I guess therapists have some self-policing protocols in place. Dunno though. Just a guess.
Anyway, if that therapist is not maintaining a therapeutic relationship then she needs to be re-educated so she stops harming people. JMO

[luvyrself]

Tho your friend might not take it well for you to intervene, it is very basic that a therapist is not supposed to do social things with a client because it causes transference. That is, therapists are supposed to maintain a professional distance from their clients so they can be objective and a guide or authority figure. Tho we can enjoy laughing with our therapist, etc, they are not our buddies and we are not supposed to think of them that way because we might take the advice of a buddy less seriously. I am astonished at how many people on these forums expect their therapists to be their friends.