[ArtleyWilkins]

So baiting through derogatory terms is okay? No. It’s not. It’s rude and manipulative and unworthy of what is supposed to be a supportive environment. It would be nice for people to stop justifying their rude behavior and rather just change it without the “but’s”.

[missbella]

I've never used psych medications. I didn't want anything to get between me and what I feel. That turned out a reasonable decision because I've become calmer through the years.

Yet I don't participate in medication discussions, harassing people who use them, imposing my way of living, judging them, name calling them. That would be abominable behavior.

I don't see the interrupters, the parsers, the scolds any differently when they disrupt a discussion that doesn't affect them.

[missbella]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

So baiting through derogatory terms is okay? No. It’s not. It’s rude and manipulative and unworthy of what is supposed to be a supportive environment. It would be nice for people to stop justifying their rude behavior and rather just change it without the “but’s”.

So what term meets your approval to describe a countless threads inevitably shut down because of disruption, parsing and ad homimen attacks? Is it the description, or the event? And wouldn't it be a more supportive community without this need to parse and dictate?

[ArtleyWilkins]

I give up. Have at it.

[missbella]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

I give up. Have at it.

Does this mean you can't answer the question?

I read about many mental health problems on this forum that I never had. It would be beyond atrocious to inject myself in those discussions with prescription, smugness and shaming. I simply skip them. I can't be supportive.

Yet, when a group here wants to banter insights around iatrogenesis, it nearly inevitably instigates a brawl by others who insist on adding something ad homimen, heckling or hateful.

It shouldn't be difficult to live and let live.

[sarahsweets]

I know I am new so I do not have the history that some other members have. There are times when a healthy debate is stimulating and good for the critical thinking part of our brains. Something I try to remember that I forgot recently but was able to reign it in is.... Is it more important for me to be right or to be kind? Is it more important to 'show that person how it is' or offer validation and compassion? There are times where I feel strongly about something and will continue to drive a point but that is generally relegated to when another member asks for advice or wants to know if they are seeing things with an open mind or if there is an ethical answer. I have come to understand that things that involve trauma or people that have been traumatized are not looking to find out if they were "right" or "wrong" Generally they are looking for validation and empathy. I can only speak for me, but my recent involvement in a thread where my compassion went out the window was a result of getting caught up in drama (which I NEVER do) and feeling like I had to take a side. Its hard when certain things from both sides make somewhat sense. Its also hard when I get on my high horse and think it I did things my way then everyone should do things my way. It involves ego and self righteousness. We all give in to our egos at times. And some of us have constructed a delicate layer to our egos that needs constant affirmations. That problem falls squarely on the persons' with the ax to grind. I do not agree with ditching the forums because its not "safe" or because I feel unliked. I first try and make sincere amends and usually that solves the problem because I mean it. I think if more people were able to see their part in a conflict that safety would be felt by more people. It always takes two or more to debate or argue and there isnt always an obvious "right" person. Being human is ok, admitting you were wrong or overeacted, or lacked sensitivity isnt concession to another person. It just means you made a mistake and we all make them. I hope people do not just shutdown and leave because often those people contribute a lot of useful stuff.

[luvyrself]

Originally Posted by here today

Many or most of us participating on PsychCentral have a history of trauma and/or mental health issues, and experience and knowledge about how to discuss differing opinions -- and disrespecting certain opinions, even -- without disrespecting others is something I know that I have lacked. There really aren't any classes anywhere about that, which I have found. So maybe, we can develop or come up with something ourselves? By participating here in a discussion, which may stray over the community guidelines sometimes, but then we learn and try again? Or something like that?

Assertiveness classes are in fact exactly for this purpose in that they teach how to stand up for yourself without being so aggressive that you work against yourself. I think its a matter of phrasing things tactfully. We might imagine that a whole audience is listening, which it is.

[TishaBuv]

The positives I’ve gotten from PC is the ability to connect with and learn from others here which educated me to help myself with issues hindering my life. I like to keep in mind, though, that posting here is like writing on a public bathroom wall.

Opinions are like azzholes, everybody’s got one! Nobody likes to get criticized and that mental image of being chased by angry mobs with pitch forks (which I’ve held that image myself), is a deterrent for many who would like to post but don’t out of that same fear.

As I’m feeling stronger now, I can control just not responding to bullies, trolls, rude people. I can shut them down by not playing into their hands. This is empowering!

[DocJohn]

I think @sarahsweets hit the nail on the head -- validation and empathy are key words when responding in a mental health community. We're not a debate community. We're not a place to find the "truth" about a particular type of treatment, especially given that different treatments work for different people.

Just try and remember, everyone you're responding to here is likely battling their own pain and demons, ones that just happen to be different than yours. Their life experience is also likely to be wildly different from yours.

All we can do is offer what we can, as fellow human beings, and do so in as non-judgmental way as possible. Sometimes a person just needs to vent and isn't really looking for advice or your "take" on things. That's okay to do here.

That's why I always say this is a self-help support community -- not a discussion forum. If you want to debate topics, there are plenty of online forums to do so. We're not one of them.

[ArtleyWilkins]

Thank you for the intent on non-judgment and support rather than debate and “truths”.

[missbella]

I think it wise default is refraining from advice-giving or worse, prescription and instruction, unless specifically requested. It’s possible to discuss how we experienced a similar challenge without disrespecting another’s boundaries. We’re merely guests in another’s backyard.

I’ll add that harm in therapy or iatrogenesis appears an extremely difficult topic for the profession.

[Calla lily12]

What I learned is "meet the person where he/she is". Just listen, sit with the person. All the topics here are difficult. Everyone's pain is different. Offer an ear and comfort.

[Fuzzybear]

Originally Posted by Calla lily12

What I learned is "meet the person where he/she is". Just listen, sit with the person. All the topics here are difficult. Everyone's pain is different. Offer an ear and comfort.

[here today]

Originally Posted by luvyrself

Assertiveness classes are in fact exactly for this purpose in that they teach how to stand up for yourself without being so aggressive that you work against yourself. I think its a matter of phrasing things tactfully. We might imagine that a whole audience is listening, which it is.

Although this may have been intended as helpful information, it is not. I learned about assertiveness training maybe -- could it have been 40 years ago? Yes, at least -- it was new then.

Assertiveness training, as it was at the time, was behavioral training. It had nothing to do with, nothing to say about, what if there was a loss or fragmentation of an underlying sense of self, or something like that, if anybody even believes that something like that can exist. It's taken me years and years since then to try to address -- try to even find out -- things that prevented "assertiveness training" to be a satisfactory solution in my case.

So -- thanks for the intention, but I'll support missbella's comment on this:

it wise default is refraining from advice-giving or worse, prescription and instruction, unless specifically requested.

Well, maybe, wisdom varies from person to person, but it does seem wise to me and to how I want to be interacted with.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by luvyrself

Assertiveness classes are in fact exactly for this purpose in that they teach how to stand up for yourself without being so aggressive that you work against yourself. I think its a matter of phrasing things tactfully. We might imagine that a whole audience is listening, which it is.

This was indeed wisely in response to a direct request. Im sorry it was not recognized as such. In my experience, assertiveness training that i took 40 years ago was not as effective to my underdeveloped self as was my more recent DBT training. Even something seemingly as simple as saying "No!" felt overwhelming at first.

[here today]

1.

Originally Posted by here today

Many or most of us participating on PsychCentral have a history of trauma and/or mental health issues, and experience and knowledge about how to discuss differing opinions -- and disrespecting certain opinions, even -- without disrespecting others is something I know that I have lacked. There really aren't any classes anywhere about that, which I have found. So maybe, we can develop or come up with something ourselves? By participating here in a discussion, which may stray over the community guidelines sometimes, but then we learn and try again? Or something like that?

2.

Originally Posted by luvyrself

Assertiveness classes are in fact exactly for this purpose in that they teach how to stand up for yourself without being so aggressive that you work against yourself. I think its a matter of phrasing things tactfully. We might imagine that a whole audience is listening, which it is.

3.

Originally Posted by here today

Although this may have been intended as helpful information, it is not. I learned about assertiveness training maybe -- could it have been 40 years ago? Yes, at least -- it was new then.

Assertiveness training, as it was at the time, was behavioral training. It had nothing to do with, nothing to say about, what if there was a loss or fragmentation of an underlying sense of self, or something like that, if anybody even believes that something like that can exist. It's taken me years and years since then to try to address -- try to even find out -- things that prevented "assertiveness training" to be a satisfactory solution in my case.

So -- thanks for the intention, but I'll support missbella's comment on this:


Well, maybe, wisdom varies from person to person, but it does seem wise to me and to how I want to be interacted with.

4.

Originally Posted by unaluna

This was indeed wisely in response to a direct request. Im sorry it was not recognized as such. In my experience, assertiveness training that i took 40 years ago was not as effective to my underdeveloped self as was my more recent DBT training. Even something seemingly as simple as saying "No!" felt overwhelming at first.

Maybe the written words, and the time and spaces between responses above, illustrates the difficulties in discussing differing opionions -- and different understandings, perspectives, and intentions.

It may be too tedious for most -- or any? -- to go through all the posts above and see where things didn't mesh, or were misundertood, or were in disagreement. But they seem to be there, to me.

One thing I found in dealing with conflict and working with a family member I was estranged from is that it was important to focus on our common interest, and common overall goal, and then to learn how to discuss our different approaches, different talents in working toward our common interest, and developing changing goals and steps to get there along the way.

Happily, we have succeeded. And though the project has yet to be completed, and I don't want to discuss what's next in detail with her yet until it has, we have both touched recently on our satisfaction that we were able to learn to work together, and our wish that we might have some kind of relationship (we haven't worked that out yet) going forward.

So -- it can be done, I think. In some instances. If/when we have a common interest or goal that we can identify.

Let me just say that, in my experience, assertiveness training as I have experienced it is not up to the task. If it is for some, go ahead with that route. I have had to do some "pre-requisite" work, as I felt I also needed before DBT would be of any help for me. I tried that, too.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by unaluna

This was indeed wisely in response to a direct request. Im sorry it was not recognized as such. In my experience, assertiveness training that i took 40 years ago was not as effective to my underdeveloped self as was my more recent DBT training. Even something seemingly as simple as saying "No!" felt overwhelming at first.

I don't see it as such. Advice for one person is not necessarily for another. Sometimes the best course of action is to acknowledge when a piece of advice is no good for one's own self.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I don't see it as such. Advice for one person is not necessarily for another. Sometimes the best course of action is to acknowledge when a piece of advice is no good for one's own self.

The question was simply whether or not it was in response to a direct request. Not for whom the bell tolls.

[stopdog]

Never the twain shall meet.

[here today]

Originally Posted by unaluna

The question was simply whether or not it was in response to a direct request. Not for whom the bell tolls.

The direct questions were, in fact these:

So maybe, we can develop or come up with something ourselves? By participating here in a discussion, which may stray over the community guidelines sometimes, but then we learn and try again? Or something like that?

That's why looking at the 4 quotes above could be helpful? Seeing where there were misunderstandings, misinterpretations, differences of perspective, etc.? Do you have any interest in participating in a discussion like that?