[here today]

This has been a problem recently in another forum. I'm guessing that's not the forum, really, to discuss that, in ways consistent with the community guidelines, so I'm starting this thread here.

[here today]

Many or most of us participating on PsychCentral have a history of trauma and/or mental health issues, and experience and knowledge about how to discuss differing opinions -- and disrespecting certain opinions, even -- without disrespecting others is something I know that I have lacked. There really aren't any classes anywhere about that, which I have found. So maybe, we can develop or come up with something ourselves? By participating here in a discussion, which may stray over the community guidelines sometimes, but then we learn and try again? Or something like that?

[missbella]

HT, I don’t think a discussion of one’s personal life or therapy journey is the same as say, debating a public policy issue. Not everything should be an “opinion” free for all. First we should respect each other’s personal boundaries and autonomy. I think it largely over the line telling someone else what to do if that hasn’t been requested. Likewise I think it presumptive to diagnose or interpret another person. To me this is simple courtesy.

[ArtleyWilkins]

It seems some personal introspection by many of us is needed. How honest is each person with him/herself about how loaded and underhanded their own rhetoric is when describing others? Often the people claiming ill-treatment use that same treatment they claim to be victim of on the very people they have a gripe with. What is the old saying? Physician heal thyself. We can't fix how others treat us if we don't take those steps first in our treatment of others, but that means we cannot turn a blind eye to ourselves.

[here today]

Originally Posted by missbella

HT, I don’t think a discussion of one’s personal life or therapy journey is the same as say, debating a public policy issue. Not everything should be an “opinion” free for all. First we should respect each other’s personal boundaries and autonomy. I think it largely over the line telling someone else what to do if that hasn’t been requested. Likewise I think it presumptive to diagnose or interpret another person. To me this is simple courtesy.

I get that, missbella. But without the development of a "good" or good enough sense of self -- that's what I call it, for myself, and I think there may be others who missed out on that, too -- it's hard to know/feel boundaries and autonomy.

I tended toward the enmeshed and codependent, I think, although I could/can turn into a bully sometimes, too.

"Therapy" is supposed to help with that -- that's the expectation that I got from our society, and I certainly hoped that it would -- but it sometimes it doesn't. And, in the meantime, how we can we try to participate in discussions and society? How can we learn about these social experiences if we don't try? It's more like riding a bike, to me, than reading a book, even though we can come up books of rules and guidelines.

I hate to be a tattle-tale, but I'm wondering about reporting individual posts more, rather than have us get into fights on topics that I think are important.

[here today]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

It seems some personal introspection by many of us is needed. How honest is each person with him/herself about how loaded and underhanded their own rhetoric is when describing others? Often the people claiming ill-treatment use that same treatment they claim to be victim of on the very people they have a gripe with. What is the old saying? Physician heal thyself. We can't fix how others treat us if we don't take those steps first in our treatment of others, but that means we cannot turn a blind eye to ourselves.

But, some of us can't introspect more. Or have "parts" or emotions that are cut off, or unconscious, and so not available to viewing with rational introspection.

I think that part of healing, or health to begin with, shows in an ability tolerate opposing views. But -- as we have seen, some folks are still so wounded and hurt that different viewpoints are personally triggering to them. They can't know who might do something like that, and thus put them on their personal ignore list. So -- they can either risk being hurt in their unhealed, wounded places again, or else they have to stay away from discussions that, I think, they have a lot to contribute to.

It may help to remember another old saying "Hurting people hurt people", too. Even if they are physicians, they may not be able to heal themselves. Very hard to do brain surgery on yourself, for instance.

[ArtleyWilkins]

So then we're back to "i'm wounded and can't help what I say" and "I'm wounded more than you, so you should help what you say and let me say what I want." (Not talking about you specifically at all, just in general). I don't buy it; that just rings as rationalization and justification of bad behavior. (Again, really replying to a general sentiment that I've seen voiced by multiple people, not just you.) And that is why this problem continues to be a problem. Everyone has a responsibility to do better here with our words, but too many of us push off that responsibility on other while ignoring the proverbial plank in our own eye.

I really don't know what else to say. I've kind of reached my limit of watching good people wound each other with their words. That's not the kind of place PC was designed to be, at least I don't think so. But the reality is that this is social media and social media has gotten more and more vicious in the last few years. I have seen the same decline here, and that is a sad declination to observe, particularly when people I care about (even if they are just cyber-acquaintances) continue to hurt each other with their words. More and more, members fade away into the shadows because PC just has lost that safety it once had. I admire your willingness to bring up this topic. It is very brave and actually encouraging that it isn't just me who is seeing this happening. I'm usually not cynical by nature, but this dynamic has left me there.

[DP_2017]

The problem is, you gotta be willing (open minded) to other things and without that, it will always be talking in circles. I have been torn down many times here since I was a member and I'm still here, still reading countless posts, sharing hugs/thanks and offering support if I can find the words... but yet, still get harassed and reported often. I'm unsure if this is fixable

and miss bella, as I don't wanna derail the other thread.. really "countless times a day"? LOL That's very drastic for asking for support. Maybe we could start with honesty instead of throwing out things like that?

[here today]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

The problem is, you gotta be willing (open minded) to other things and without that, it will always be talking in circles. I have been torn down many times here since I was a member and I'm still here, still reading countless posts, sharing hugs/thanks and offering support if I can find the words... but yet, still get harassed and reported often. I'm unsure if this is fixable

and miss bella, as I don't wanna derail the other thread.. really "countless times a day"? LOL That's very drastic for asking for support. Maybe we could start with honesty instead of throwing out things like that??

AND people who have been traumatized are NOT open-minded about that. I do get that.

I was open-minded, with a "false self", maybe idealistic approach to life, and my trauma was pretty closed off to me and the world. So I finally "got in touch" with it and the last T couldn't tolerate the rage I experienced, and expressed relatively mildly but still there. It was therapy for heaven's sake! OK, it was her "own wounds" but I am very much NOT open-minded about considering her side of things AT ALL. Further, I believe that is rational in that instance.

She told me at the next session that she was "triggered", as if that explanation should put things back on track, no apology, no interest in how her shaming had affected me. No interest in me, apparently -- and I think that is true, although some may be transference from family members who were not interested in me either. Enough said about my wounds here, I get where the non-open-minded people are coming from.

Does that make any sense to you? Even though it's not something that you have experienced personally?

[DP_2017]

I guess maybe just avoiding this forum is the only way. I was saying to be open minded that other people have different views. It's not saying to like or agree but humans will always have varying views.

I definitely think it's time for me to leave pc
Ive been wanting to a while now and I'm not welcome here anymore

Thanks for those who have been nice and civil to me. I hope everyone dealing with trauma of any kind can find some healing and peace in their lives. Best wishes to you all.

[FriendlyJoe]

Originally Posted by missbella

HT, I don’t think a discussion of one’s personal life or therapy journey is the same as say, debating a public policy issue. Not everything should be an “opinion” free for all. First we should respect each other’s personal boundaries and autonomy. I think it largely over the line telling someone else what to do if that hasn’t been requested. Likewise I think it presumptive to diagnose or interpret another person. To me this is simple courtesy.

Be careful, saying "going to therapy is not for everyone" or the pitch forks will come out again.

My reason for joining the forum was to read other posts of like minded individuals. Id rather have a conversation with someone like myself than with someone that has no clue. People can research their heart away but unless they experience it first hand then they'll never really grasp it.

I'm looking out the window and its raining, my day is shot. Damnit I should have made plans for a rainy day. Hopefully the weather is nicer where you're at, missbella.

[here today]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

I guess maybe just avoiding this forum is the only way. I was saying to be open minded that other people have different views. It's not saying to like or agree but humans will always have varying views.

I definitely think it's time for me to leave pc
Ive been wanting to a while now and I'm not welcome here anymore

Thanks for those who have been nice and civil to me. I hope everyone dealing with trauma of any kind can find some healing and peace in their lives. Best wishes to you all.

You're certainly welcome here as far as I'm concerned. Though who knows how long any of us will stick around. Your differing opinions haven't bothered me. I wish you well as you go forward, too.

[missbella]

Strangely we meet ourselves anywhere we go.

[here today]

Originally Posted by missbella

Strangely we meet ourselves anywhere we go.

Agree, though different ways to look at that!

[missbella]

Those who haven’t been exploited by therapists don’t understand the discussions. So they somehow see them as an invitation to debate or troll. They have not a clue we’re not self pitying or whining, we’re exchanging viewpoints to better understand events we sometimes carry for lifetimes.

Therapists themselves appear terrified by the topic of iatrogenisis. They barely touch it and many certainly don’t know how to treat any for it. That leaves peer support, and PC is one of the few possible places for us to encounter each other and get what we couldn’t from practitioners.

I had a lousy childhood too. But dealing with my family and cascading consequences has been a cakewalk compared to understanding my therapy experience.

Can’t those of you who are so threatened, so triggered that you must disrupt and troll find something else to do? Respect other people’s boundaries. It’s easy-peasy to skip threads that aren’t relevant. And while you’re at it dig deep and figure out why you’re so threatened by a topic that doesn’t affect you.

[here today]

I think there may sometimes be a tendency, too, to kick someone when they are down. That may frequently come from people who are avoiding facing/accepting their own wounds.

That's different from what I see in some posters, though, who are mostly trying to express their own point of view. And just don't see ours. AND when we come off so wounded and hurt and self-defensive then it's sometimes hard for them to see our point of view, even though they might otherwise be inclined to. Limitations of human nature sometimes, I think.

[missbella]

I almost accidentally found myself in a support group that had the rule, support others by talking about how we ourselves dealt with a problem. So that’s what I do. I’m not prescriptive. I say this happened to me; this is how I coped; this is what I felt. The other person can decide how much, if any, is relevant. That way I’m not bossy or presumptuous nor jumping over anyone else’s garden fence.

It’s the difference between saying “I’ve found steam helps my sinuses” and “you should steam your sinuses.” Or worse, “no wonder you feel bad; you don’t steam your sinuses.” Maybe the sufferer tried that already.

It’s possible to respond with full awareness that we’re visitors in someone else’s backyard. We don’t have to be bossy or prescriptive. No one is a life master here.

[ArtleyWilkins]

The use of the label “troll” and descriptions of mobs with pitchforks is indicative of a large part problem in communication.

[here today]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

The use of the label “troll” and descriptions of mobs with pitchforks is indicative of the a large part problem in communication.

Here's Wikipedia's definition of troll

Internet troll - Wikipedia

It seems an accurate description in some instances -- AND can definitely be received/felt as derogatory by a person, I get that. But people who are not trolls but share a point of view may experience the label at an attack on them as well. Which derails the possibility of some kind of relationship, and communication, with them about our different opinions.

Perhaps a description of the activity rather than a person might be equally accurate? I really appreciate missbella's ability to accurately describe things around the therapeutic situation, as she has for many years. Helped me out a lot. Many, many thanks.

Urban Dictionary: Trolling

[missbella]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

The use of the label “troll” and descriptions of mobs with pitchforks is indicative of the a large part problem in communication.

What word would you use then? Nearly every thread about iatrogenesis gets shut down after a hand full of people disrupt it with ad hominem remarks. "Troll" is a widely used internet word for heckling. And while we're at it, being prescriptive with one another, as well as parsing language, is one of the problems too.