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Default Jun 13, 2019 at 05:34 PM
  #1
At what point does a moderator step in and close a thread out of concern for the original poster's emotional health a welfare?

I speak of threads where it is quite clear that some sort of delusion or psychosis exists. Does it do the OP any service to stand by a watch the hoards offer repeated validation and encouragement for such far fetched and at times what can be harmful thoughts. At what point then does the site simply shut things down and insist the OP get help?

I realise we are a community of persons with mental illness. I realise everyone is due their voice. I realise the purpose of this site is to be supportive.

But, how supportive are we being when we play into, validate, and encourage what is pretty far fetched and obviously not real? Wouldn't the supportive thing to do be closing the thread and addressing the issue with the OP? Wouldn't the kindest and most supportive thing be to identify for the person a problem exists and make effort to advise them to seek help?

And what about the rest of us - those who see the posts for what they are and do in fact realise they are far fetched, unrealistic, and likely a fabric of the imagination made up and otherwise. Do we bite our lips and let the blood run out of not wishing to start something or be offensive? Are we being out of place for raising the very fact that things might not be as they seem?

I think it starts with the moderators. I don't think the responsibility should be in the hands of the regular membership.

I truly think this ought to be up for discussion and consideration amongst those who operate this site.

It is really upsetting to see these things and know the individual is neither being addressed nor getting help. It is also difficult to see the pats on the back, validation, and encouragement for such thinking. It definitely does not help the original poster, it certainly isn't supporting them, and thus can be seen as a detriment.

Please then take this under consideration. If you already have guidelines about this, I apologise - but I am not seeing any demonstration of them in fact existing.
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Default Jun 13, 2019 at 05:40 PM
  #2
Thank you for posting this. For me, I don't mind that, even if it's delusion or whatever, that someone is receiving validation, but my concern is when the person is expressing severe hostility toward and even the possibility to do harm to others or themselves. Or I think, as perhaps you were alluding, putting themselves in the way of harm due to the delusion or psychosis or detachment from reality.

I would like to know what the guidelines are and what the site does in response to such individuals.

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Default Jun 13, 2019 at 06:10 PM
  #3
PC is not a form of treatment or intervention. That's very clearly stated. The mods are neither doctors nor psychologists in clinical practice here. They are not here to treat people. It's just a place for people to come and get support and connection. If we don't want to support someone telling tall tales or in the midst of psychosis, we don't have to.

We aren't here to fix people. We can't. We are faceless strangers on a website.

The moderators aren't trained or authorized to assess people's mental health here. Same with suicidal ideation, for example. People can post about feeling like they'd rather die but PC is not the place to get an intervention. That does not mean that suicidal folks can't come here for comfort, right?

You mentioned psychosis, Wishful Thinker. If someone is truly psychotic, they don't know so. And intervention only works if a person actually sees a need for it. Though PC is also not a place of intervention.
 
 
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Default Jun 13, 2019 at 07:34 PM
  #4
Its funny because that is exactly what the USA Democrats (and much of the rest of the world) have been saying for the past 2 and a half years.
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Default Jun 13, 2019 at 10:55 PM
  #5
I have felt this way about the specific self harm threads that talk about methods. I avoid them but when I used to be unwell I would look at stuff on the net to get ideas.

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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 08:28 AM
  #6
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Originally Posted by SilverTrees View Post
PC is not a form of treatment or intervention. That's very clearly stated. The mods are neither doctors nor psychologists in clinical practice here. They are not here to treat people. It's just a place for people to come and get support and connection. If we don't want to support someone telling tall tales or in the midst of psychosis, we don't have to.

We aren't here to fix people. We can't. We are faceless strangers on a website.

The moderators aren't trained or authorized to assess people's mental health here. Same with suicidal ideation, for example. People can post about feeling like they'd rather die but PC is not the place to get an intervention. That does not mean that suicidal folks can't come here for comfort, right?

You mentioned psychosis, Wishful Thinker. If someone is truly psychotic, they don't know so. And intervention only works if a person actually sees a need for it. Though PC is also not a place of intervention.
———I see your point, but there are a lot of PCentral guidelines that are not enforced. With a limited amount of time, The moderators must prioritize. I do think a severely troubled poster might take a readers advice to seek help.

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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 11:13 AM
  #7
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Originally Posted by seesaw View Post
Thank you for posting this. For me, I don't mind that, even if it's delusion or whatever, that someone is receiving validation, but my concern is when the person is expressing severe hostility toward and even the possibility to do harm to others or themselves. Or I think, as perhaps you were alluding, putting themselves in the way of harm due to the delusion or psychosis or detachment from reality.

I would like to know what the guidelines are and what the site does in response to such individuals.
Seesaw, you have raised a very good point. I can think of several individuals who are or have spouted off some very alarming threads about harming other people or otherwise espousing violence. There was a fellow not that long ago obviously an incel and his posts went on for far too long without anything done about them. This sort of thing ought to have been shut down immediately. There are others that have spouted off some pretty extreme and hurtful thinking. Why are such things tolerated; yet those pointing out the inappropriate nature of the threads and forum behaviours are the ones chastised and shut down?

I realise one needs to tread carefully in such matters. I repeat, however, that validating pats on the back are not the answer. We absolutely should never then encourage the individual other than to urge them to get help. I don't think it a great effort for a thread to be closed - with full explanation of course - and the OP reached out to.
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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 11:17 AM
  #8
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Originally Posted by WishfulThinker66 View Post
Seesaw, you have raised a very good point. I can think of several individuals who are or have spouted off some very alarming threads about harming other people or otherwise espousing violence. There was a fellow not that long ago obviously an incel and his posts went on for far too long without anything done about them. This sort of thing ought to have been shut down immediately. There are others that have spouted off some pretty extreme and hurtful thinking. Why are such things tolerated; yet those pointing out the inappropriate nature of the threads and forum behaviours are the ones chastised and shut down?

I realise one needs to tread carefully in such matters. I repeat, however, that validating pats on the back are not the answer. We absolutely should never then encourage the individual other than to urge them to get help. I don't think it a great effort for a thread to be closed - with full explanation of course - and the OP reached out to.
Right, I agree. I know that moderators can't do anything if we don't report our concerns. So make sure to hit the little report button and let them know. If it continues and escalates, I will send a specific report to a moderator or DocJohn. I'm not sure what else we can do. Honestly, I considered reporting something to an actual authority at one point, not sure what they could do, but knowing at least I would have reported it and possibly that could help.

I mean, we're all anonymous IP addresses, there isn't much PC moderators can do besides put the person on moderation to check their posts before they post.

Again, I think it goes back to being responsible for our own community and reporting things that we see and not just assuming a moderator sees it. They don't have time to read every thread. They rely on us raising things up to them to check out.

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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 11:18 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by SilverTrees View Post
PC is not a form of treatment or intervention. That's very clearly stated. The mods are neither doctors nor psychologists in clinical practice here. They are not here to treat people. It's just a place for people to come and get support and connection. If we don't want to support someone telling tall tales or in the midst of psychosis, we don't have to.

We aren't here to fix people. We can't. We are faceless strangers on a website.

The moderators aren't trained or authorized to assess people's mental health here. Same with suicidal ideation, for example. People can post about feeling like they'd rather die but PC is not the place to get an intervention. That does not mean that suicidal folks can't come here for comfort, right?

You mentioned psychosis, Wishful Thinker. If someone is truly psychotic, they don't know so. And intervention only works if a person actually sees a need for it. Though PC is also not a place of intervention.
I realise this all too well Silvertrees. However, encouraging the OP to continue with their misguided delusional thinking is NOT appropriate - especially when there exists a very real risk to themselves and others.

I understand validating someone's emotional pain and suffering, but this shouldn't be happening in such cases as I have described. This is why it is absolutely essential it be nipped in the bud early on. I believe that is in fact a responsibility of a moderator and that is what they sign on to do.
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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by WishfulThinker66 View Post
I realise this all too well Silvertrees. However, encouraging the OP to continue with their misguided delusional thinking is NOT appropriate - especially when there exists a very real risk to themselves and others.

I understand validating someone's emotional pain and suffering, but this shouldn't be happening in such cases as I have described. This is why it is absolutely essential it be nipped in the bud early on. I believe that is in fact a responsibility of a moderator and that is what they sign on to do.
What exactly is it that you think the mods signed on to do? Assess mental health? Screen for psychosis? Treat psychosis? They did not sign on for any such thing. That would be impossible and also wildly inappropriate on an online forum. They aren't doctors or social workers.

How do you know that a faceless stranger is "a very real risk to themselves and others?" Some people might post suicidal messages for attention. Sure, they aren't healthy if that's how they want to get attention but you could only know if they're actually about to end their life if you were right there in person with them. And you are not. You don't know who they are or what their life looks like. Similarly, how do you know they are about to harm others in the offline world? Someone could post angry messages and not have any intention of harming someone. If the messages are actually abusive/violating the rules, the mods will step in after a report. That's all they can do. They don't track people down and place handcuffs on them.

If you really feel this way, then I wonder why you are a member on an online forum for folks living with mental health problems? By the very nature of the medium, the mods and DocJohn cannot do what you are suggesting. They cannot be PIs or cops and show up at people's homes....file for orders of protection etc.

We are not here to "fix" or "correct" other people's lives. None of us. If that is what you feel the goal of PC is, then you are probably going to feel miserable here. It sounds like perhaps you already are miserable here. Are you? We aren't cops or judges or family members here. We can read messages and reply or not. If a post seems offensive or abusive, we can flag it for the mods. And that's it. I think you need to be realistic about the online medium and its limitations.

You sound like you may be jumping to conclusions about other people's lives based on their posts. A person could make up a tall tale right now which could suggest that something terrible is about to happen to them.....it may be anxiety-provoking for someone reading the tall tale but that doesn't make it true. There's no way to know on a faceless online forum. Similarly, if something terrible is about to happen to someone, they need to call the police for offline, tangible help. If someone were pointing a gun at me, I wouldn't be hoping to log on to PC for help. How on earth would that be the responsibility of a moderator or DocJohn when they don't even know who the person is or where they live?

It sounds like you might feel more comfortable with an in-person support group....face to face interactions and non-verbal cues etc. I think it's a cognitive leap to assume that because you don't feel comfortable with the online forum then it must be wrong.

Being able to come to PC has helped me during a really difficult time in my life. I've met countless others here who say it helps them too. If it doesn't help you and makes you feel angry or miserable, why not leave rather than slamming it? What you are proposing cannot be done online. That's reality.
 
 
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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 01:13 PM
  #11
You know, it seems like this post was a question for either moderators or DocJohn to elaborate on how they handle things. So maybe that's who we should let answer?

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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by seesaw View Post
You know, it seems like this post was a question for either moderators or DocJohn to elaborate on how they handle things. So maybe that's who we should let answer?
Agreed! It seems more appropriate that an Admin explains and/or elaborates on the guidelines and roles and fills in any of the grey areas rather than members themselves.
 
 
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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 01:33 PM
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What exactly is it that you think the mods signed on to do? Assess mental health? Screen for psychosis? Treat psychosis? They did not sign on for any such thing. That would be impossible and also wildly inappropriate on an online forum. They aren't doctors or social workers.

How do you know that a faceless stranger is "a very real risk to themselves and others?" Some people might post suicidal messages for attention. Sure, they aren't healthy if that's how they want to get attention but you could only know if they're actually about to end their life if you were right there in person with them. And you are not. You don't know who they are or what their life looks like. Similarly, how do you know they are about to harm others in the offline world? Someone could post angry messages and not have any intention of harming someone. If the messages are actually abusive/violating the rules, the mods will step in after a report. That's all they can do. They don't track people down and place handcuffs on them.

If you really feel this way, then I wonder why you are a member on an online forum for folks living with mental health problems? By the very nature of the medium, the mods and DocJohn cannot do what you are suggesting. They cannot be PIs or cops and show up at people's homes....file for orders of protection etc.

We are not here to "fix" or "correct" other people's lives. None of us. If that is what you feel the goal of PC is, then you are probably going to feel miserable here. It sounds like perhaps you already are miserable here. Are you? We aren't cops or judges or family members here. We can read messages and reply or not. If a post seems offensive or abusive, we can flag it for the mods. And that's it. I think you need to be realistic about the online medium and its limitations.

You sound like you may be jumping to conclusions about other people's lives based on their posts. A person could make up a tall tale right now which could suggest that something terrible is about to happen to them.....it may be anxiety-provoking for someone reading the tall tale but that doesn't make it true. There's no way to know on a faceless online forum. Similarly, if something terrible is about to happen to someone, they need to call the police for offline, tangible help. If someone were pointing a gun at me, I wouldn't be hoping to log on to PC for help. How on earth would that be the responsibility of a moderator or DocJohn when they don't even know who the person is or where they live?

It sounds like you might feel more comfortable with an in-person support group....face to face interactions and non-verbal cues etc. I think it's a cognitive leap to assume that because you don't feel comfortable with the online forum then it must be wrong.

Being able to come to PC has helped me during a really difficult time in my life. I've met countless others here who say it helps them too. If it doesn't help you and makes you feel angry or miserable, why not leave rather than slamming it? What you are proposing cannot be done online. That's reality.
I don't think it's right or OK to question the OP in this manner or question why she is here. Why are you suggesting that she leave? She's here asking a question to the community and I believe mainly to bring the issue to the Admins attn. You're suggesting she find another means for support.
 
 
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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 01:43 PM
  #14
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I don't think it's right or OK to question the OP in this manner or question why she is here. Why are you suggesting that she leave? She's here asking a question to the community and I believe mainly to bring the issue to the Admins attn. You're suggesting she find another means for support.
Thanks for this @golden_eve. I think it's also worth a mention that in the past 5 years I have seen the guidelines and policies shift and change as a result of member feedback and concerns. The admins and @DocJohn have made changes based on member input right from this sub-forum. It is absolutely appropriate for the OP to ask this question and express this concern. There may or may not be a solution, but the concern comes out of care for other members not judgment (at least that's my impression).

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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 01:51 PM
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My intention was to emphasize that PC is optional. Nobody is forced to be here if they feel it violates their personal value system. Of course it is not for me to decide if Wishful Thinker stays or goes. That is obvious and a given. If you re-read my message, you will see that I did not tell anyone to leave. I mentioned that it is an option to leave if someone thinks the medium itself is wrong or immoral. If I felt that way, I am sure I would want to leave but that's me. Wishful Thinker will of course decide that for herself. Again, a given.

I do think it's untenable to suggest that online moderators ask as police or doctors. I don't see how a shift in policy could bring that into effect.
 
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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 01:53 PM
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The main point is that it is not a nice thing to suggest that PC may be the wrong place for the OP. She asked an earnest question, she has an earnest concern and we as a community are meant to support her in that.
 
 
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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 01:55 PM
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And I am earnestly going to end this argument with you Golden Eve. I wish you peace and a lovely weekend.
 
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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 01:58 PM
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SilverTrees, there is no argument. I am simply pointing out that we as a community are here to support one another. Your post suggested that she leave, which is not supportive, and I was pointing that out.
 
 
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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 02:04 PM
  #19
I hear you wishful thinking.

But it’s anonymous forum so it’s hard to really provide proper help. We don’t even know if someone posts things that appear delusional because people are really unwell and suffer from delusions or is it someone makes stuff up out of boredom.

Sure some stuff is quite obvious but there is no proof due to anonymity.

As about people who encourage things that probably shouldn’t be encouraged, I usually think these people might be very unwell themselves or perhaps don't know any better. Can’t really expect great insight from everyone especially people who are themselves in a bad shape.

Personally when I am reading very questionable things, I urged people to seek professional help. There is really all we can do and of course we can also report posts that we deem inappropriate
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Default Jun 14, 2019 at 02:04 PM
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SilverTrees, there is no argument. I am simply pointing out that we as a community are here to support one another. Your post suggested that she leave, which is not supportive, and I was pointing that out.
I have to agree. It may not have been intended but the message came off pretty hostile and ironically as judgmental as the post itself accuses the OP. I am sure it was not intended because we are all here to receive and give support. But I also think it's good to think about why we are responding and how our words come off.

Again, I am willing to wait to hear the thoughts of the administration on these issues.

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Meds I've tried: Prozac, Zoloft, Celexa, Effexor, Remeron, Elavil, Wellbutrin, Risperidone, Abilify, Prazosin, Paxil, Trazadone, Tramadol, Topomax, Xanax, Propranolol, Valium, Visteril, Vraylar, Selinor, Clonopin, Ambien

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