[Lilly2]

Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ

I think your logic is sound! It's interesting to hear this from someone who's been through it. I have heard stigma's attached to military service ptsd / military sexual trauma, but never about it so openly. Thank you for sharing that insight.

In saying this, I agree that separating the two is important!

You've got a lot to say and share and I look forward to hearing more. You've certainly opened my eyes to military abuse!

Any chance you might have a title in mind for your subsection?

Thanks,
HD7970ghz

LOL... There is not enough people for a subsection to be warranted. I think maybe 3 or 4 members have posted about mst, at least based on my search. That is too low a number.

Maybe in the future. But not now, unfortunately. As it is, no one has responded to my posts in the ptsd forum. Only one member replied to a post I made before i rejoined. That is not enough.

It is also a triggering topic for non vets to read. So even less likely to receive support. People like to see vets as heroic, not as me-too complainers. That is just the reality of our society.

[lizardlady]

Just a thought.... how about starting a thread about MST PTSD in the general PTSD forum. If it generates enough respnses maybe it could become a stickie at the top of the forum?

[Lilly2]

Originally Posted by lizardlady

Just a thought.... how about starting a thread about MST PTSD in the general PTSD forum. If it generates enough respnses maybe it could become a stickie at the top of the forum?

I tried a few times. One a while back, which now shows as anonymous because I left and came back. Another with mst ptsd resources. I think the poll was deleted, but I requested to delete the poll, lol. There is not many reaponses, not enough people.

It could be that many mst survivors do not join online groups, or if they do, they would rather discuss other things.

Not sure.

But you make a good point. Thank you.

[luvyrself]

I strongly disagree with anything that would discourage anyone from getting help. I have a friend who is a lead technician servicing fighter planes overseas. I think he is still hiding this from his family. It makes me crazy.

[Lilly2]

Originally Posted by luvyrself

I strongly disagree with anything that would discourage anyone from getting help. I have a friend who is a lead technician servicing fighter planes overseas. I think he is still hiding this from his family. It makes me crazy.

@luvyrself

(((safe hugs))) I'm so sorry to hear about your friend overseas. It's sad when he feels like he has to hide this from his family, especially when his family could be a strong support for him.

Sadly, I did the same thing. My family doesn't know about my MST at all. What was going through my mind at the time of discharge and for homecoming was shame. I felt ashamed for not speaking up and reporting what happened to me, even though at least one of the men went to the brig, and I felt ashamed for having my time cut short, even though I was honorably discharged. I felt ashamed that my wounds weren't cause by combat, but rather sexual victimization. It was hard for me to share anything about the service. And, because there is a level of clearance that we all have in service, I didn't think I could share this with any civilians, let alone any fellow service members.

It's a secret shame that I've held onto for over 20 years before I went to the VA to seek treatment for that. I was in civilian therapy for about 20 years and pretending that my "childhood" traumas represented my MST, since I didn't want to speak negatively about the Corps.

I can understand that moral injury of silence, and why people remain silent. It doesn't make it right. It angers me, too. Maybe I wouldn't be so f**** up had I said something and gotten help.

I hope your friend is able to reach out and get some help. Even if he feels he cannot report it, there are ways he can still get help when he's off duty, I think. If he can find the courage to report it, that would be best, too, of course.

I'm so sorry, once again, to hear about your friend. (((safe hugs)))

[Lilly2]

Here's the reality:

You sign the dotted line, agree to enlist in the military, and agree to serve your country. You are willing to lay down your life in order to save thousands or millions. You are willing to sacrifice everything you have to join a force that defends our nation.

Then MST happens. You feel betrayed. Your dreams of "fighting to the death" or serving out a long military/government career - gone. Your enemy becomes your own brothers in arms. You don't know how this happened. You ask yourself, "Am I too weak? Do they not want me here? Is there something wrong with me? Why was I singled out? Is this a ritual I must pass? Is this a test? Was I not trained well enough? WHY?!"

And then you contemplate the crede, the rules you were trained to abide by, the leadership skills you've learned. Your pressed uniform, made rack, shined boots, and medals meant nothing when you couldn't even fight off your own brethren. You wonder if you could even fight off the enemy. You wonder how you could ever serve alongside the men who did this to you. You wonder if it will happen again and again and again. Your own invisible torture chamber settles in - your own personal POW. Inside your own mind, your MIA. You're separated from yourself, as if floating to bide the time. You see yourself perform amicably, without tears or any emotion. You bide your time, as if it were a prison sentence. You work, and you work harder than ever. You smile bitterly.

And then the paranoia kicks in. You wonder why it seems so silent among the cadence that you hear. You wonder how you could let them get away with this. You want revenge, you were trained in defense. You should have defended yourself, you say. But you couldn't.

So then your esteem lowers, your confidence plummets to the ground like the bullets at the rifle range. Your focus and dreams are gone. You're only left with yourself in that uniform among uniforms, and you wonder if you fit in.

You're sick, so you go to Sick Bay. You barely eat, and you're weak. You take leave, and you're questioned about your performance. No, you're interrogated.

You get med-boarded out. You await their response before discharge. You receive your papers. You pack your s*** and leave.

Your homecoming is a joke. Your honorable discharge lacks honor. Your courage is stripped from your medals. Your shame is the only badge you wear. Your silence becomes your everything. And the life you once thought you'd live in service to this country is gone.

You're now at home, alone, without praise. Your time was cut short, and you tell no one about your reasons for discharge. You have a blank face, and you're numb. You wonder what your reason for existence is since your identity and everything you worked hard in training to accomplish has been stripped from your title. You're now a coward, and you're afraid to go to the VA. You find alternative means to seek treatment, but only years after homecoming. Your past becomes a blur, as the darkness settles in. You no longer train because that just reminds you of the loss. Your mind is invaded with flashbacks. Everyone becomes suspect. You argue, you leave, you disconnect. Your body is not yours anymore.

Years later, you break down. You don't cry, but you cower into a lifeless child. Your direction in life is fraught with fear of being disempowered yet again. You think thoughts about ending it all. You get help without saying what it is that brought you there. You blame it on your childhood, since no one will understand MST. You blame it on anything but the reasons why you're f**** up.

For years you go on like this. None of the treatments are working, but you try. Some tools help, and you're convinced that your displaced anger at childhood will help you to recover. You try and TRY AND TRY.... It still brings you back to this mess.

And when you finally find the courage to visit the VA, your body is a mess. You're broken and scarred all over. You've lost your bearings, and you fear the men in uniform again and again, with every appointment. You cancel many times. You return. You cancel again. You try again.

You're retraumatized again and again.

The nightmares neverending, the thoughts never ceasing. You dare to shed a tear, but the tear only reminds you of that time you were betrayed by your brothers in arms. And today's silence reminds you of that time you were betrayed by your brothers in arms.

[Lilly2]

On the flip side of all this, I do celebrate Veterans Day. And I do honor all the fallen soldiers on Memorial Day, who gave their ultimate sacrifice. I also celebrate my own nephews' and friends' service to their country, as they are in various branches with various ranks in the military. And, I celebrate all military and government personnel who work hard every day to defend this country. Most of all, I do celebrate the courageous efforts of combat soldiers (and veterans), special ops (and veterans), clandestine (and veterans), etc.

I've even considered the possibilities of "restorative justice" between MST survivors and MST offenders. I've often wondered what that would look like. If even one could come forward, at least far past the statute of limitations (if there is such a thing in Military Law), and apologize for their actions, offer clues as to why they made such mistakes in the first place, and help us to raise awareness about this ongoing issue. I've contemplated my own thoughts about forgiveness, as I want to forgive them, my noxious brothers in arms. I've often wondered if their MST offending stemmed from combat stress, peer pressure, alcohol abuse, or a combination of those factors. I've often wondered if their views about women or those men they perceive as "weak" led to their heinous actions; did they do their acts to purposefully make us fit for duty, or did they do it because they thought they were "training us"? It would help, I think, to figure out the genesis of their behaviors.

I often wondered if any of those veterans, including those with OTH discharges, experience moral injury from their MST perpetration. I wonder if they are in treatment for that, or if they go on to abuse some more in the civilian sector. After all, they were my brothers in arms, and I cared about not even leaving them behind, even if they left me behind (purposefully).

I've often wondered if restorative justice exists in the military. I wonder if JAG takes that into consideration. I wonder if both victim and offender could return to duty as fit siblings working alongside one another.

I commend their services apart from their MST offenses. I do. I'm sure they had put in a great deal of effort to defend our country, despite their intentional offenses or their semi-intentional "mistakes."

But where's the honor and leadership in MST perpetration? I don't see any courage in that. As a victim, I cannot see how MST bettered the military, their various units, and their victims. Where's the defense against our country for that? Are we even defending our country against sexual offenses, or are we training our soldiers to use that as a weapon? Why? - this becomes the ruminating question throughout our lives.

And MST survivors aren't the only ones suffering. The families and loved ones of MST survivors also suffer. The effects of MST perpetration (not just the MST PTSD among survivors) affects many lives beyond its victims. The effects of MST perpetration also affect the lives of those who know the offender, even if they don't know of his offenses.

And, an even scarier thought: How many female MST perpetrators exist? What say the governing authorities about them? Do they exist? Do they join in as bystanders and/or perpetrators? Males cannot be the only ones who are culpable when there are many accomplices or even phallic tools that can be used in place of human body parts.

And verbal sexual harassment is also part of MST: let us not forget that component. How many male and female perpetrators are there? Their victims are counted, but what about the perpetrators? There could be more than one, and coverup involves accomplices to such crimes.

What about military culture encourages MST offending? Is there such a thing as rape culture within society and the military? Under what conditions are these actions allowed or honorable? It would appear that the stripping of honor should fall on the perpetrators of MST, but instead it usually falls on their victims. Why?

And so, on Veterans Day, I consider these things and more. I consider my love for my brothers in arms - all of them, even the attempters with OTH discharges. I have enough room for forgiveness and praise for the good deeds that everyone had done and are continuing to do.

To my MST offending brothers in arms, "I forgive you." (((safe hugs)))

[luvyrself]

Oh, Lilly, I feel so bad for all of you who go through any kind of ptsd. They really need to create a safe place for you folks to talk about this. The va tries to help, but it’s so complicated.Thanks so much for giving us all your insights. It’s hard for us to understand. You’re the best!

[Lilly2]

Originally Posted by luvyrself

Oh, Lilly, I feel so bad for all of you who go through any kind of ptsd. They really need to create a safe place for you folks to talk about this. The va tries to help, but it’s so complicated.Thanks so much for giving us all your insights. It’s hard for us to understand. You’re the best!

@luvyrself

Thank you.

BTW, how is your friend overseas? Is he still in service? Does he reach out to you about MST? I hope he is doing okay.