[luvyrself]

I have been on these wonderful forums for years. I think the thing that slows us down most in giving relevant tips or sharing sources of information that will most help is having to dig for background information. I mean that for example if a woman says her partner is abusive, it doesn’t help us to give lesser examples of the abuse. Then we have to dig for the extent of the situation. Or you may be asking about careers, but you are not getting treatment and you are barely getting by.. Or you’re not getting treatment and asking very complex treatment related questions when you don’t have a place to live. Yes it’s hard to determine the first thing to do when youre overwhelmed, but food, housing, insurance or a program for assistance, psychiatrists and medical doctors come first.

[seesaw]

Every person chooses for themselves what is the most important need they have. It's not for you or I to judge what should be their most important concern. Frankly, if I came here with a question that was important to me, and someone suggested that something else should.be my priority I would be put off and leave and never come back. It's extremely invalidating to suggest to someone that you know better than them which need should be there most important concern.

People's anonymity is also their own choice, and they have very right not to state where they are and whether or not they are seeking a certain kind if treatment or any treatment at all. People's medical choices are their own. We are here for support. Not to enforce treatment choices on others.

[~Christina]

I think a member can decide what to share and what not to, so the full situation is rarely shared. I know for myself I don’t always share everything when posting.

As for advice given.... PC has always really been about support and sure loads of advice but the OP ultimately decides to pick and choose whatever “they “ feel is most important.

I have seen a lot of people especially newer members post there situations whatever that might be and get tons of responses but it’s like 101 questions in rapid fire and the OP just never responds and honestly I can’t blame them. Talk about being overwhelmed .

I feel members who are in a bad situation of any kind need a softer approach and maybe a simple question of “ what can I do to help? “

Anyway just my thoughts

[luvyrself]

I was afraid this would happen. Somehow I’m not getting across what I mean to say. If for example, you are truly suicidal, and manydont use the warning icons, it puts us on the wrong track to not have the basic facts. What if it was me who was in the serious stages of planning it. IM NOT. This is just an example. Wouldn’t you want to know if i was in treatment and as best I could describe it what was causing that feeling? In some of these situations the person, not just in danger of self harming, needs. The most basic treatment and info right away. Of course it’s their or my right to start an unrelated thread , like how’s the weather where you are? Sometimes a distraction is good. However, if, seriously planning self harm ( again just an example) I put our readers thru a long drawn out question, I:might not get help in time. Christina, you and I answer a lot of questions. Both of us have had to change our answers completely because the questions have not been specific with basic info. That happened to me as a poster recently. It was ok because I wasn’t in danger. However, sometimes there is a big lag time as we do other things in our lives, or those who answer us do other things.
Now I see what doctors are up against in trying to get the full picture in a short session.. I do outline my info before a session and give a huge packet of info on n me to a new doctor. The wonderful Skeezyks is no longer giving new members basic info to get started. Miss you, Skeezyks.
I’m on a community forum in my town. I see I need to save, then copy and paste some info that I have to keep repeating.
Ok, is this more clear? I like your idea, Christina, asking how can I help.

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by luvyrself

I was afraid this would happen. Somehow I’m not getting across what I mean to say. If for example, you are truly suicidal, and manydont use the warning icons, it puts us on the wrong track to not have the basic facts. What if it was me who was in the serious stages of planning it. IM NOT. This is just an example. Wouldn’t you want to know if i was in treatment and as best I could describe it what was causing that feeling? In some of these situations the person, not just in danger of self harming, needs. The most basic treatment and info right away. Of course it’s their or my right to ask an unrelated question , like how’s the weather where you are? Sometimes a distraction is good. However, if, seriously planning self harm ( again just an example) I put our readers thru a long drawn out question, I:might not get help in time. Christina, you and I answer a lot of questions. Both of us have had to change our answers completely because the questions have not been specific with basic info. That happened to me as a poster recently. It was ok because I wasn’t in danger. However, sometimes there is a big lag time as we do other things in our lives, or those who answer us do other things.

Now I see what doctors are up against in trying to get the full picture in a short session.. I do outline my info before a session and give a huge packet of info on n me to a new doctor. The wonderful Skeezyks is no longer giving new members basic info to get started. Miss you, Skeezyks.

I’m on a community forum in my town. I see I need to save, then copy and paste some info that I have to keep repeating.

Ok, is this more clear?

No, my response is exactly the same. People can choose what they want to share or not share and their choice of treatment or what they decide they want or need help with is up to them. It's not up to us to decide what should be important to them or not. This also isn't a crisis line. Our job here isn't to get someone to treatment or the "right" thing, as you suggest, but to provide support and validation. It is not for us to triage or diagnose or decide.

[DocJohn]

I think in an ideal world, everyone would share the exact amount of information needed in order to receive specific, useful, and practical advice from other members.

However, we live in a very messy world where people don't act in the ideal. And yes, while it would be nice to get all the info WE think we need in order to offer the best advice possible, the poster may not be comfortable in sharing what WE need, but rather what they're comfortable for THEIR needs.

I would certainly be uncomfortable in publicly sharing too much personal info in a public forum, especially when it came to specifics about where I live or what kinds of access to other healthcare systems I may have.

The good news is that for people looking for very specific advice to access resources, we can either interact with them at their level (and gently ask appropriate followup questions if we feel engaged to do so), or we can simply not reply to their post, if we feel like we don't have enough info to offer useful, practical advice. (One could also always PM a poster to get further details if they feel like they could find the resources the poster themselves could not.)

At the end of the day, we have to respect where each person is in their own journey, and what they feel comfortable in sharing.

[happysobercrafter]

I want to add to this discussion.

Over the years as I have gotten better, I have looked through earlier journals I wrote to get my thoughts on paper and out of my head. Consistently, I would read gibberish. I could not believe what I had written or what I could have been thinking about.

Then much later, it occurred to me that when I was traumatized, the event registered in my brain including the tangled emotions and thoughts that came with it.

Am I making sense?

When we are traumatized, it is a blow to our bodies and our brains. The physical bruises we see are also in our emotions and self-esteem. Those wounds have to be addressed physically and emotionally for us to straighten out and heal. And when that trauma hits a child, it is overwhelming and some will be locked away in amnesia. That is my personal experience.

That said, if the trauma is still in place, it is practically impossible to word it logically until it heals and straightens itself out first. Plus, those of us who live with that, building a logical productive life is difficult because our foundation is faulty. So, we keep struggling and repeating the same mistakes over and over without being able to understand why until we achieve that breakthrough.

[amandalouise]

yea Im with the others what you are asking for could possibly leave each other open to things like stalking, reading a post that may to one person sound suicidal even if its not, so lets contact that persons police and doctors. so many ways this can go wrong.

even in suicidal postings its up to each person.

lets put it this way theres a reason why there is a rule of no suicidal postings now. when I first came here there was so many postings of people saying they were going to dot dot dot. then after many others begged and conjoled and hugged and discussed the suicidal person disclosed they really were not suicidal they just wanted people to care.

bottom line is that if a person is seriously suicidal one they don't need online help they need real off the computer help of their own doctors. not the doctors and therapists that we tell them about, and two those that I know who have been seriously suicidal don't go on line and talk about being suicidal, expecting the online group to talk them out of it. they plan silently all the while not letting on anything is wrong then when they have their plan in place they do it when theres no one to stop them.

nothing we online can say or do is going to stop that. evidence of both of these is that there have been psych central members who we are notified after the fact are gone.

my point if a person really wants to commit suicide they are going to do it. providing a way to locate that member and report them for help isn't going to do anything but make people more watchful of what they post and instill fear about stalking and so on.

[luvyrself]

First, I wasn’t referring only to situations about suicide.If you dont know some basic info about the person, you can be wasting your time answering wrong or digging out information. I guess you have to be someone who answers posts a lot to understand this. I love Christina’s suggestion to ask,How can I help you? Sometimes you get a rant that means mostly that the person needs professional help.
Second, does anyone but you know that suicidal postings are banned now?What good does that do if no one knows about it. I’m on the forums a lot and didnt know.Im betting that few people do know.

[DocJohn]

Suicidal action posts have been banned for quite some time here... It's in our community guidelines (the ones every member has agreed to when they become a member here). These posts are those that describe specific methods, or a plan to commit suicide. We do not allow these anywhere in the community.

Suicidal thoughts posts are still okay, as long as they are accompanied with a trigger icon in the post. We prefer these posts to be made in the Depression forum. These posts are those that describe vague suicidal thoughts, with no talk of methods or a plan.

Please see this post from 2007 for more info on what's allowed and what's not: Our Suicidal Posting Policy & Suicide Resources

As for your request, I think everyone understands the rational reasons for it, and would agree that it's reasonable for you to want to know more before offering advice, if that's what you need in order to feel comfortable. I think that's perfectly okay for you. But it's not something we can ask all members to abide by, or believe it is needed for other members to reply.

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by luvyrself

First, I wasn’t referring only to situations about suicide.If you dont know some basic info about the person, you can be wasting your time answering wrong or digging out information. I guess you have to be someone who answers posts a lot to understand this. I love Christina’s suggestion to ask,How can I help you? Sometimes you get a rant that means mostly that the person needs professional help.

Second, does anyone but you know that suicidal postings are banned now?What good does that do if no one knows about it. I’m on the forums a lot and didnt know.Im betting that few people do know.

1. All the people who have commented respond a lot on the forums. So we are aware of how things work.

2. The no suicidal posts is pretty well known. Not only is it mentioned at the top of many forums, it is in the community guidelines and been openly discussed here numerous times.

3. Not everyone, in fact a lot of people, comes here to be referred to professional help. Most (I speculate) are here for peer support and validation. From my own point of view, I am not here at all to be referred to a provider bc you think I need some form of professional help based on anything I post. And this suggestion, if given when I was at my worst, would have driven me from the forums, and I would not have received the much needed peer validation and understanding I received. Referral is not really the way we help here. Often the best way we can help is to simply listen and understand and validate the person's feelings and experience, because no one else is. If they then decide they want further help and ask for it, then suggestions can be made. This is just my own point of view but most of us get advice and judgement crammed down our throats all day long. Yes, there are instances where people are asking outright questions, but even those questions are often asking simply for validation (ie: did I overreact? Is it right to feel this way, etc.).

[~Christina]

I just want to add something personal maybe it can help explain my view on this tricky topic

I have on numerous occasions been in a really bad place and honestly not been “Safe”

So I make a post I’m really just not doing well “ people respond and usually ask me what’s going on... “ I’m overwhelmed , not sleeping and I feel worthless “ “ the sun is too loud”

I know I’m going to get the standard “ you need to call your Pdoc right now and get a Med change! Did that help me ? No !!! Not. At. All.

What honestly helped me the most is people understanding what overwhelmed “ feels like. What not getting any sleep is like, what feeling worthless is like. How in my Bipolar world “the sun can indeed be too loud”

I feel these are some things a person needs to hear.

How can I help ?
Do you want to talk about what’s overwhelming you ?
I’m really sorry your not sleeping I understand how hard that makes everything.
I understand feeling worthless
I’m always around if you want to talk
How about I just sit right next to, your not alone.

Just knowing people understood how I was feeling just by my initial thread was a gift to me , validation that “hey it’s okay to be a mess”

Sometimes I would start giving more details and answer some questions, sometimes not.... but anyone that tried to “ push me” with lots of questions or made me feel like I was being backed into a corner I literally ignored them and focused on the people who just wanted me to know I wasn’t alone. That is an enormous gift to give someone.

Numerous people reached out to me through PM and said Hey I’m here I have a shoulder if you need one, I’ll say a prayer for you, I always have an ear, etc etc ....

I was really blown away by people offering to just listen. A member PM’d me and said ... Well I’m going to just sit next you and maybe we can just take some deep breaths together. That member ? She’s my person I love her to bits ... she lives in another country but she just helped me realize that I had indeed reached out for help and thats a huge step. We messaged back and forth for hours.

I appreciated everyone who took time out of there busy lives to just stop and offer a kind word.

Sometimes people just need to be heard and listened too. The world is a big scary place at times.

Sometimes people just need to vent and that’s perfectly fine. Many members even post “ I’m venting I’m not really looking for advice “‘ give a kind word and a hug, maybe after they are done venting they might want to talk, leave it up to the OP.

Oh boy have I ranted sometimes, I didn’t need my Pdoc or T .... I needed to just dump everything out of me... I personally call it a word vomit lol

Unfortunately people can vanish and it’s not always that something bad happened, people come and go for all kinds of reasons.

Yikes I have rambled on and on , it’s just a topic that means a lot to me.

[luvyrself]

Yes, I agree that the best thing on the forum is when people accept us, understand us, and validate us. However, in my life, I want tips and information very much. Often the person is asking a specific question. With psychiatric doctors that take insurance, and some private doctors offering 15 minute sessions once youre past intake, I think info from peers is VITAL. Bipolar is complex and yay, I have mixed episodes. Most of the therapists I have encountered over my 40 years with this just sit there. I have to press for goal setting over and over. Obviously I like structure and specific help as fast as I can get it. And I have learned more than from 40 years worth of doctors here. I think its possible to validate the person just by giving a specific response--showing that you take them seriously, care about what happens to them, and intend in any way we can.
So I think we can help in two ways: 1. by showing warmth and acceptance and 2. by answering questions in an effective way. Again, I think people can be helped a lot more when we know what we're dealing with. Im going to try to be as specific as possible when I start a thread asking for ideas.
I dont think I should be ashamed of trying to help people by sharing all those years of experience that i got THE HARD WAY with very little support and almost NO information. Acceptance is important too, but I want people to tell me what has worked for them specifically or what they think will work for me. I just want people to get more information than I received and was starved for. It would have changed my life.
So thank God for Psych Central and for all of you. I think a balanced approach is the goal.
.
How about we provide a warm accepting tone AND specific information (in the clearest possible way)?

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by luvyrself

Yes, I agree that the best thing on the forum is when people accept us, understand us, and validate us. However, in my life, I want tips and information very much. Often the person is asking a specific question. With psychiatric doctors that take insurance, and some private doctors offering 15 minute sessions once youre past intake, I think info from peers is VITAL. Bipolar is complex and yay, I have mixed episodes. Most of the therapists I have encountered over my 40 years with this just sit there. I have to press for goal setting over and over. Obviously I like structure and specific help as fast as I can get it. And I have learned more than from 40 years worth of doctors here. I think its possible to validate the person just by giving a specific response--showing that you take them seriously, care about what happens to them, and intend in any way we can.
So I think we can help in two ways: 1. by showing warmth and acceptance and 2. by answering questions in an effective way. Again, I think people can be helped a lot more when we know what we're dealing with. Im going to try to be as specific as possible when I start a thread asking for ideas.
I dont think I should be ashamed of trying to help people by sharing all those years of experience that i got THE HARD WAY with very little support and almost NO information. Acceptance is important too, but I want people to tell me what has worked for them specifically or what they think will work for me. I just want people to get more information than I received and was starved for. It would have changed my life.
So thank God for Psych Central and for all of you. I think a balanced approach is the goal.
.
How about we provide a warm accepting tone AND specific information (in the clearest possible way)?

No one is suggesting that you shouldn't answer questions that people ask with specific information or that you can't ask for more details so you can give a legit response. We're just saying that it's the OP's prerogative how much they choose to share or not share, and we're not going to ask them, as a requirement of posting, that they share specific details that are pre-prescribed. If you want more info from an OP, just ask, but they aren't required to include anything they don't want in their post, and that is as it should be. People share what they are comfortable with.

And you are more than welcome to make as many suggestions to as many people as you like, drawing on your own personal experience.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by luvyrself

How about we provide a warm accepting tone AND specific information (in the clearest possible way)?

I can fully understand that …………….you...………… would like specific information when you post..and that's ok.

how about when ……………..you ……………….are looking for specific information you place that in your posts....

that way those reading your posts can see what you are looking for.

trying to require everyone to do this for the whole site in my opinion is not going to happen.

first because Doc John the owner of the site already stated that's not going to happen, that everyone is free to post or not post specific information but its not a requirement.

second this is not a the kind of site and forum where a person can always every replier post specific information. its a mental health support group. all members or most of the membership have mental disorders, and post are posting while they their selves are in active symptoms phases.

by asking on a site like psych central this , you are asking it be required that someone who may be having delusions. hallucinations, may be manic or depressive or in a dissociative state of mind or having an anxiety panic attack and so on to be required to post specific information.

let me show you an example....

when my medications are not working I am having hallucinations I may be looking at my computer, trying to read and reply to a post and because I may be in the state of mind of my computer is talking to me it can be very lucky if I can post coherently let alone read each post and try to read between the lines to see what each poster may be looking for in the way of specific information, then find my way past my talking computer to google the specific information, then coherently post that information.

bottom line its not going to happen where everyone on psych central is going to be able to include in their posts specific information.

like doc john and others in this thread have said its ok for you to ask for specific information but other posters have the right to post what is comfortable for them to post.

[*Beth*]

I sense that this is an important post, but for some reason (maybe 'cause I'm tired) I'm not understanding what the topic is.

Are we discussing how much people share, or is it how much advice we give...or the type of advice we give, and are we direct or solely supportive?

I'm lost, lol

[bpcyclist]

Very interesting discussion here. I would only add that I certainly do try to keep Maslow's Hierarchy somewhere in the back of my mind when reading a new poster's posts. Just personally and for me, not saying anyone else has to agree with this, but I might have slightly different feedback for someone who is homeless and living under a bridge than I might for a gainfully employed suburban person. Not because one is more valid or important than the other, but because the reality is options are not the same.

I would also say that, while I agree validation is very important, it is not always appropriate. For example, someone who states that they are dealing illegal drugs is not going to have those illegal and dangerous and anti-recovery activities validated by me.

Similarly, someone who admits that they are abusing a spouse or child. No validation of that either--at least not from me. There are some things, it seems to me, that nearly every sensible person can agree are just wrong--dealing drugs, beating a husband. And I don't think we need to be in the business of validating those activities. Not telling anyone else what to believe, just sharing my take.

[~Christina]

Luv, I understand what your saying and wanting to do but it’s a slippery slope. People post what they are comfortable sharing , if they ask questions about where to find professional help you can tell them to google their town to find providers in there area.

If a person asks if anyone knows of a T or Pdoc in X town then you can probably help them find a list, and that’s wonderful.

Your goal orientated ?? I am too with my T we see problem X and work on it until it’s resolved. So I know what’s driving your need for wanting more information. But maybe take a few minutes to re read their post and see if they are looking for specific answers or are just wanting to hear other people’s experience with X situation. Those are very different things.

You are going to find people who are willing to answer lots of personal questions and they will be lucky to find you as you do have a lot of advice to give

As for support given to people that are abusive or drug dealers. Iv been kicking around PC for over 8 years I have never seen a post where someone will admit they are a drug dealer, we get a lot of posts about having a drug problem of course ..,you can validate there addiction.. Hey,I’m sorry your dealing with this addiction...is there’s anyway I can help .. or... there’s lots of help to be found here , I could probably show you some websites if you want... if they want them they will say .. sure, yes, please etc . My experience with anyone with whatever addiction is looking for someone else that’s been there, birds of a feather kinda deal. I have only absolute basic understand of AA, so I don’t get involved.

I’ve seen maybe a dozen posts over the years that someone admits to either physically hitting a partner or being emotional abusive etc. but they come asking for help , they want to know how to find help, they want to stop.

So in those cases of course no one will validate what they Are doing or HAVE done is right , time and time again the responses are pushing for them to find professional help , other responses will be about how much damage they have/are doing to the other person.

Some threads for personal reasons I don’t even open as it triggering.

If a person is posting whether it be the OP or a members response is something that is iffy as to be within community guidelines just click that X and let the Moderators handle it.

If I ask someone a question and they don’t respond then I just move along I don’t ask them another.

I’m just grateful PC exists

[*Beth*]

Originally Posted by luvyrself

I have been on these wonderful forums for years. I think the thing that slows us down most in giving relevant tips or sharing sources of information that will most help is having to dig for background information. I mean that for example if a woman says her partner is abusive, it doesn’t help us to give lesser examples of the abuse. Then we have to dig for the extent of the situation. Or you may be asking about careers, but you are not getting treatment and you are barely getting by.. Or you’re not getting treatment and asking very complex treatment related questions when you don’t have a place to live. Yes it’s hard to determine the first thing to do when youre overwhelmed, but food, housing, insurance or a program for assistance, psychiatrists and medical doctors come first.

Okay, I have re-read your OP several times and I might understand it now.

Are you saying that it would be helpful if each member shared their background so others can understand what that person's history is?

If that's what you mean, I also have a problem with not knowing someone's basic history. Yet I recognize that some members don't want to share every detail of their lives. And what about the practicality of doing so...how can a member share their story?

In other words, even if someone wants to give background information, how would they do that on every post...put succinct information in their signatures, or...?

I don't mind sharing personal information at all. I can't think of anything I don't want to share, within reason. But of course, many people are not comfortable sharing their background story.

The only practical way I can think of to find out about other members' history is to make a thread specifically for members to give their history and current issues. Ask posters to limit their history to a specific length...perhaps remind people to use paragraphs, and to tell their story as clearly and directly as as possible; i.e., not write a book. That way whoever wants to answer can do so.

Another idea is to ask members who want to do so to list, say, 3 goals related to their history. For example, "Goal #1 My sister always made fun of the way I dressed, She really hurt my self-esteem. Now she has invited me to dinner because I think she wants to reconcile. I'd like some tips on how to forgive her so she and I can be closer now."

That's just a random examlpe that could be used. Or, maybe someone wants to post something that requires a trigger warning because it's intense.

I hope I've understood the meaning of this thread. If I haven't....

[bpcyclist]

Originally Posted by ~Christina

Luv, I understand what your saying and wanting to do but it’s a slippery slope. People post what they are comfortable sharing , if they ask questions about where to find professional help you can tell them to google their town to find providers in there area.

If a person asks if anyone knows of a T or Pdoc in X town then you can probably help them find a list, and that’s wonderful.

Your goal orientated ?? I am too with my T we see problem X and work on it until it’s resolved. So I know what’s driving your need for wanting more information. But maybe take a few minutes to re read their post and see if they are looking for specific answers or are just wanting to hear other people’s experience with X situation. Those are very different things.

You are going to find people who are willing to answer lots of personal questions and they will be lucky to find you as you do have a lot of advice to give

As for support given to people that are abusive or drug dealers. Iv been kicking around PC for over 8 years I have never seen a post where someone will admit they are a drug dealer, we get a lot of posts about having a drug problem of course ..,you can validate there addiction.. Hey,I’m sorry your dealing with this addiction...is there’s anyway I can help .. or... there’s lots of help to be found here , I could probably show you some websites if you want... if they want them they will say .. sure, yes, please etc . My experience with anyone with whatever addiction is looking for someone else that’s been there, birds of a feather kinda deal. I have only absolute basic understand of AA, so I don’t get involved.

I’ve seen maybe a dozen posts over the years that someone admits to either physically hitting a partner or being emotional abusive etc. but they come asking for help , they want to know how to find help, they want to stop.

So in those cases of course no one will validate what they Are doing or HAVE done is right , time and time again the responses are pushing for them to find professional help , other responses will be about how much damage they have/are doing to the other person.

Some threads for personal reasons I don’t even open as it triggering.

If a person is posting whether it be the OP or a members response is something that is iffy as to be within community guidelines just click that X and let the Moderators handle it.

If I ask someone a question and they don’t respond then I just move along I don’t ask them another.

I’m just grateful PC exists

I have been on PC a far briefer time than you and certainly am far less well acquainted with all of its ins and outs and nooks and crannies than you are. Those two examples you commented upon were both taken from actual PC posts read and/or commented on by me, one of them rather recently. I cannot direct you as to where to find them because I do not keep records of other people's posts. But that's where the examples arose from.

But I fear I didn't make myself very clear, because the specifics of those examples were not at all my point. My point was that I was responding to the notion set out that PC ought to serve as a kind of blanket validation center for all those who come here. That's why we're here. To validate. That's one position and many of us are here in America and so, that is fine. But I don't happen to agree with that. I believe there are a goodly number of things that ought not be validated ever, even if the poster is struggling/suffering with some kind of clear mental illness. No need to go into it any more than that. That was my point.