advertisement
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Display Modes
Buffy01
Wise Elder
 
Buffy01's Avatar
Buffy01 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Oct 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 9,461 (SuperPoster!)
5 yr Member
9,664 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Oct 17, 2019 at 06:58 PM
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by LundiHvalursson View Post
In my own personal experiences in all my 29 years, 11 months and 3 weeks on this earth, I would estimate that over 80% (a quite conservative estimate at that) of people, both male and female, who upon knowing that I am a virgin at an older age, they have reacted negatively to very negatively. Quite a few have reacted extremely negatively, as in laughing out loud, giving me the middle finger, calling me a virgin loser, saying that I will be single for the rest of my life, women calling me asexual or mentally ill, I have heard and seen it all. I expect people to act like this to me now. It is just recently that I learnt how to be content with how I am as a person and ignore what those people have said about me.

If I included people who seemed like they did not care but then made comments about my being odd or weird, the estimate would be over 90%. It is not just a few people, but I would say the vast majority of people. Of course by logical deduction, this most likely means that I am living in a place full of judgemental people.

What makes me happy is probably hard to define. I like my interests in sciences and mathematics, and my serious hobbies like chess and foreign languages. I plan to study medicine in Europe despite having 3 STEM degrees, and I have a one-track mind in being studious and academic. Perhaps this turns the women off back home where I live. I am not seen as a normal person for these interests, and I can barely make male friends as well, because they consider me too odd, and even way odder due to the virgin/single issue.

I think that you are also asking if I am tying happiness to relationship/sex. In a way, yes. It is certainly not the key factor to determine happiness though. It is a part of it, probably something like 20%. I feel like something is missing, quite lonely.

As an example, I am on holiday right now. I was in Germany for a week, and I just arrived a few hours ago in Portugal. As a sole traveller, I like to see dramatic landscapes and views from the city. Tomorrow I plan to do some photos from the city hills overlooking the Atlantic Ocean during sunset. I shall undoubtedly see hordes of couples there taking selfies. I have been in these situations before. Romantic view and romantic setting. Yet I am alone, no one to talk to but myself. The fact that this scene keeps repeating itself over and over in my life up to age 29, at just one week from my 30th birthday, makes me depressed instead of just feeling ambivalent.

So what I mean is, having a girlfriend and all of the stuff that comes with relationships would brighten up life at least a little bit. My entire life does not hinge on relationships, but it certainly would improve it.
I'm sorry that you are struggling right now! I myself have been shame because I wasn't dating anyone. The one guy who did go out with me? Went out with me on a dare to see if I was straight.
Buffy01 is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Lilly2

advertisement
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Oct 18, 2019 at 03:13 PM
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffy01 View Post
I'm sorry that you are struggling right now! I myself have been shame because I wasn't dating anyone. The one guy who did go out with me? Went out with me on a dare to see if I was straight.
One of the few times in my life that a woman has asked me out was two months ago. Clearly we were not compatible, and suddenly she started talking about how she used to go shopping for birth control.

I have no idea really how the equivalent of my situation would be, i.e. female virgins. But I am not sure why I get reactions so visceral, such as when women called me a fücking virgin loser or gave me the double middle finger. Fortunately this happens very rarely, perhaps only 3-4 times, but the other times, whilst not as bad as these, are still very negative reactions.

At least ten times in my life women have laughed at me when I told them. My mother was a virgin until age 27, but she said that men did not berate her with comments that I have received. The negative comments I probably take too seriously. I know that I should not believe these comments, but I keep hearing them.
LundiHvalursson is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Lilly2, Serpentine Leaf
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Oct 23, 2019 at 11:18 PM
  #23
There are just three hours left until midnight (tomorrow), i.e. my 30th birthday. I feel anxious. Over the past two months I have shed a lot of the shame/fear I have had from being single/virgin, but at least a little bit of that uncomfortable, uneasy feeling still remains. I am trying, though.
LundiHvalursson is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Gasplessy, Lilly2, mote.of.soul
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Oct 24, 2019 at 04:26 PM
  #24
Since today is my 30th birthday, I am trying to be easy on myself and not beat myself up (figuratively) like I always do.

It is funny, on my Facebook, since my birthdate is public and it gives notifications, I see that almost 50 people have defriended me, and over 45 of them were women. I just have to ignore things like that and focus on myself more.
LundiHvalursson is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Lilly2, Serpentine Leaf
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Oct 31, 2019 at 05:30 PM
  #25
One week into my 30s, I have done some introspection.

So I am now 30 years (and one week) old and still single/virgin. But since my mother knew just a few months ago that she had Asperger's, and then knowing that I had it as well, I wonder if this is handicapping me in social interactions. Very recently I started reading about this, and it seems like many older male virgins (and perhaps older female virgins?) are single/virgin that long usually because of some sort of ASD.

I am now back home from my holiday. Just this Saturday I attended my regular meetup. But this time it was a Halloween special fancy dress party, although fancy dress was not mandatory. Maybe because on my trip I did not socialise very much but mostly kept to myself, I felt very awkward during this meetup.

I seemed to have given off an stern, reprimanding vibe, because it seemed like many people, especially the women, seemed a bit put off by my tone. But I really do not notice it. I do know that I do not know when people cannot hear me, unless they tell me. Then I speak much louder. But then they say that I am shouting. And I am brutally honest, am one of those "tell it like it is" people. For many reasons, here in San Francisco people do not like brutal honesty. But I cannot help it, that is just how I talk. I noticed though that way more people tried to avoid me, even excusing themselves to go to the opposite side of the room when I tried to join in a group to talk.

There was one moment where this woman introduced herself to me after having stared at me with a strange look for more than twenty times throughout the meetup. We talked for a while, and she wondered why I had two books sticking out of my jacket pockets. I said that those were language textbooks that I read on the way to the meetup, since public transit is painfully slow here. She asked about my languages, and was impressed when I explained my foreign languages that I knew. The conversation seemed to somewhat flow, at least.

However, soon the DJ arrived and loud, blasting music was playing in the venue. The dance floor opened up, and the music was as loud as if I were on the tarmac of an aeroport waiting to board my plane and heard the engines running. Eventually everyone started dancing, including her. I just stood there, as stiff as the Rock of Gibraltar, with people dancing all round me. She then asked me, "What is wrong? Why are you not dancing?", and I just froze. I had a very bad flashback to when I was around 12 years old and at a school dance for students in the last year of my primary school. At that time, the same thing happened-a girl asked me to dance and I froze like a rock. Almost my entire class looked at me, and some male pupils tried to teach me in real time how to slow-dance with the girl. But I could not do it, inviting more embarrassment and ridicule. All of this returned to my memory when the woman asked me to dance during this meetup. I just stood there for over a minute. Then the woman seemed to feel pity for me, and said, "Please, just try to dance." I said, "No, I cannot do this." She said, Just try. Just try. It is not hard. Just give it a try." Again, I froze like a rock. I just stood there for five minutes in my own world, stiff and not moving with everyone dancing round me on the dance floor. Eventually, feeling completely out of place, I quietly left the dance floor and exited the door of the meetup venue. I felt the incident that happened when I was 12 repeating itself just two days after my 30th birthday.

It is during times like these that I feel completely lost in how to remedy my social awkwardness. It certainly is destroying my dating life (or whatever even existed of it).
LundiHvalursson is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Lilly2, Serpentine Leaf
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Dec 13, 2019 at 05:41 PM
  #26
I came across this article:

Later-in-life virgins – ‘At my age, it becomes a red flag’

I think that the title says it all.

I am not sure what to think of this article, whether to feel depressed or just brush it off and keep trying like usual. Here are some quotes from the article that really had me thinking about this:

Quote:
If it seems as though taboos about sex have lifted in these ostensibly open-minded times, there is one that holds steady: the stigma over never having had sex. While it has become widely unacceptable to criticise someone for having too many partners, being a virgin “still seems to be something that can be only mocked or shamed or suspect”, says Richard.
That is deflating to hear.

About the same guy:
Quote:
He is articulate, even wryly humorous, about his virginity, even as he says it causes him day-to-day unhappiness. “It’s like trying to date with an STD that’s not contagious and easily curable, but still puts people off.”
So today's society regards virginity at 25+ as basically an STI. That is the extent to which people hate virgins?

Quote:
Three years ago Richard was pursued by a woman who retreated after learning, via a game of 20 questions over text, that he was a virgin. “When I kind of pried, she said that she thought that she would ‘ruin’ me.” That response is not uncommon, he says. “It’s like they’re dictating your sexuality for you, in a way – what you are and aren’t ready for, what you can handle emotionally, just based on that one titbit about you.”
I can relate. And this guy is only one year older than I am. Is this what is to become of my future?
LundiHvalursson is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Serpentine Leaf
Serpentine Leaf
Member
Serpentine Leaf has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2019
Location: Mid Atlantic
Posts: 166
3 yr Member
687 hugs
given
Default Dec 14, 2019 at 05:34 PM
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by LundiHvalursson View Post
I have but a little more than two weeks before I turn 30. After that one time over a month ago when I went to a restaurant with that woman who started talking about birth control, I have had no more dates so far. My obsession with numerical significance and statistics tells me that that it is more than extremely likely that I turn 30 still being single/virgin.

There is very little online dating coach advice specifically for guys on the spectrum. What I am doing instead if just seeing what some of the advice for NT guys is (and of course the advice from here), and pick what makes sense to me and ignore the rest. For example, following the advice about being less serious, but ignoring the advice about quickly escalating touching. If she loses attraction because I do not engage in touching, then so be it. We would not be compatible if that is the case.

I think that after reflecting for weeks on this, looking back, I have probably hated myself for too long. Dealing with social anxiety, generalised anxiety, OCD, sinking in and out of depression depending on life situations, plus the Asperger's have made most of my life, especially my 20s, a psychological torture. But now I realise that I have been to hard on myself. Anything good that I accomplish, I compare with someone else and say well they did even better than I do.

I fail to consider the positives in myself, always focussing on the negatives. Probably due to listening too much to the insults/criticism over the years, especially of the "haha virgin loser" sort of comments. After deep introspection, I truly believe that I have a lot to offer. Maybe I am not the worthless, disgusting person that I always have considered myself to be for decades. Sometimes I feel sad that it seems like here where I am the women whom I meet do not see my positives, or I am just incompatible with so many here. But it is what it is, and I cannot change the past.

I try to look forward to beginning the 30s on a good note. All of the torture of my 20s I think I did not deserve it, but it is what it is. I can only try to change the future.

You've achieved great insight and this will help you on your journey, Lundi. Feeling more comfortable with yourself, and not feeling like you have to hide anything or be perfect in every social situation, will help your positives shine more clearly. Putting too much pressure on yourself can too often increase the very same behaviors that you're worried about. I've been there too.

And I was 30 when I first had sex, so don't think it's impossible. I ended up thinking it would never happen either, but it did.
Serpentine Leaf is offline  
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Dec 14, 2019 at 06:10 PM
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine Leaf View Post
You've achieved great insight and this will help you on your journey, Lundi. Feeling more comfortable with yourself, and not feeling like you have to hide anything or be perfect in every social situation, will help your positives shine more clearly. Putting too much pressure on yourself can too often increase the very same behaviors that you're worried about. I've been there too.

And I was 30 when I first had sex, so don't think it's impossible. I ended up thinking it would never happen either, but it did.
This whole issue with singleness and virginity has affected negatively my physical health as well. I have suffered weight loss in the past as well as stomach problems, plus now I have chronic hypertension that started in my mid-20s. The stress and self-hatred that I placed on myself destroyed my self-esteem. Just in the past two months, I tried to rectify all of this.

I still have a long way to go. I see evidence of virgins at my age, especially males, being cast aside as if they were sub-humans. I need to keep up my confidence, looking at all of my abilities that I have despite being in this state.

I have heard many times about how opportunities arise when one least expects it. I have a hard time believing it, due to the repeated past failures in my life. But then again, I suppose that many people who did get those opportunities did not expect it either.
LundiHvalursson is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Serpentine Leaf
Serpentine Leaf
Member
Serpentine Leaf has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2019
Location: Mid Atlantic
Posts: 166
3 yr Member
687 hugs
given
Default Dec 14, 2019 at 09:03 PM
  #29
Please know that not all women are cruel. You've had some awful experiences, Lundi, but it might be the people you are trying to spend time with. They all sound like over-the-top extroverts. People like that, in my experience, are completely judgemental and not at all understanding of difference. Lots of nerdy women, whether they're on the spectrum or not, also remain virgins into their 30s. We live in a culture that thinks extroversion and NT is the only acceptable way to be. That isn't at all true. Doing the party scene isn't going to help you meet someone who will accept you. You're beating yourself to a pulp for not doing well with people who aren't right for you anyway. If you have the economic means, and the interest, places like ComicCon or a Trek convention might be good places to start. Also check out meeting venues within your scientific fields, or join some local book clubs. If you have a support group for ASD near where you live, that might be a good place to make some friendships at the very least.

Also check out this site for self-compassion; it sure has helped me with my self-esteem problems, beating the snot out of myself for my actual and perceived shortcomings and loneliness.
Self-Compassion
Serpentine Leaf is offline  
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Dec 15, 2019 at 06:36 PM
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine Leaf View Post
Please know that not all women are cruel. You've had some awful experiences, Lundi, but it might be the people you are trying to spend time with. They all sound like over-the-top extroverts. People like that, in my experience, are completely judgemental and not at all understanding of difference. Lots of nerdy women, whether they're on the spectrum or not, also remain virgins into their 30s. We live in a culture that thinks extroversion and NT is the only acceptable way to be. That isn't at all true. Doing the party scene isn't going to help you meet someone who will accept you. You're beating yourself to a pulp for not doing well with people who aren't right for you anyway. If you have the economic means, and the interest, places like ComicCon or a Trek convention might be good places to start. Also check out meeting venues within your scientific fields, or join some local book clubs. If you have a support group for ASD near where you live, that might be a good place to make some friendships at the very least.

Also check out this site for self-compassion; it sure has helped me with my self-esteem problems, beating the snot out of myself for my actual and perceived shortcomings and loneliness.
Self-Compassion
Thanks for telling me about the women that are virgins. I never thought about that before. Like in the article, it said that only around 2% of all men in the UK are virgins past age 30, and that only around 1% of all women in the UK are virgins at that age. My guess is that this pattern is similar in other Western countries. It scares me that I am in that 2%. I only meet the 99% of women who are not virgins, as far as I know. I never meet any of the 1%. The group must be small and/or they are in other social gatherings.

Once last year I went to a meetup at night at the Academy of Sciences. It was a nightlife event, so only adults were allowed. There was a bar and music and even a dance floor, even with the scientific exhibits open at nearby. For some reason, it seemed to me that even in a science environment there were a lot of neurotypical people who were gregarious and talkative. I felt still out of place. Not sure if here there are simply a majority of people who are neurotypicals who attend meetups.
LundiHvalursson is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Serpentine Leaf
Serpentine Leaf
Member
Serpentine Leaf has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2019
Location: Mid Atlantic
Posts: 166
3 yr Member
687 hugs
given
Default Dec 15, 2019 at 08:09 PM
  #31
The meetup venue you are using is, I presume, Meetup.com? I never had good experiences with that one either. It's very much focused on extroverts. I started a group that no one showed up to, was part of another group where someone liked to question other people super aggressively, and another where some guy got very creepy with me.

Female virgins are likely to be those who are staying at home alone much of the time, as I did. I understand how embarrassing it can be, even though females don't face quite the same stigma as males in this case. One of the very few gender-based double-standards that we have the upper had on. But also remember there are women who are not virgins but have experienced bad relationships with men who have made sex feel dirty, degrading, or painful, or that sex was all she had to offer in a relationship. Your innocence will be appealing to a woman who has been hurt and used in this way.

Some scientists can be highly extroverted, and even world-class jerks. Those are the ones who attended that meetup. The introverted ones were probably in their rooms on their computers. A quieter venue like a lecture, forum, symposium, or the like might be a better option. There are also, counter-intuitive as it might seem, gatherings for people on the spectrum. Temple Grandin has spoken at some of these, and some other activists and public figures.

And never be afraid of being in a slim minority! That means different, not defective.
Serpentine Leaf is offline  
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Dec 16, 2019 at 01:13 AM
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine Leaf View Post
The meetup venue you are using is, I presume, Meetup.com? I never had good experiences with that one either. It's very much focused on extroverts. I started a group that no one showed up to, was part of another group where someone liked to question other people super aggressively, and another where some guy got very creepy with me.

Female virgins are likely to be those who are staying at home alone much of the time, as I did. I understand how embarrassing it can be, even though females don't face quite the same stigma as males in this case. One of the very few gender-based double-standards that we have the upper had on. But also remember there are women who are not virgins but have experienced bad relationships with men who have made sex feel dirty, degrading, or painful, or that sex was all she had to offer in a relationship. Your innocence will be appealing to a woman who has been hurt and used in this way.

Some scientists can be highly extroverted, and even world-class jerks. Those are the ones who attended that meetup. The introverted ones were probably in their rooms on their computers. A quieter venue like a lecture, forum, symposium, or the like might be a better option. There are also, counter-intuitive as it might seem, gatherings for people on the spectrum. Temple Grandin has spoken at some of these, and some other activists and public figures.

And never be afraid of being in a slim minority! That means different, not defective.
Yes, they are events from the platform meetup.com. I definitely felt the same vibe like you said, it is quite slanted towards extroverts. I used to attend a foreign language meetup, but you would be surprised how much sex was talked about despite the meetup not being anything related at all to sex. Instead, although people would speak different languages, just as I do, the topics would invariably revolve around dating and sex. And some people attended despite not even knowing any other language other than English. Some monoglot Anglophones talked to me, and just talked about how the dating scene was so hard that it would be better to talk to and try to date foreigners.

I actually tried to make my own semi-meetup group. In 2016, since I could not afford the $15 per month fee to own a meetup group, I just made a Facebook group and tried to invite people from other meetups to come. Eventually the turnout was so bad that only 2 or 3 people attended, then I ended up attending alone. Depressing would be an understatement to describe that experience.

I had talked a bit with my mother further about this virginity thing. You may be right--I know that as a male, a lot of things are heavily in my favour just for being male, but that male virginity is an exception--it is a big taboo up to this day. My mother reported never really feeling any sort of terribly low self-esteem nor experienced heavy bullying for being a virgin until age 27. Sometimes a random, occasional comment about when she would get married and stuff, but nothing along the lines of the "You are scum, virgin loser" or being called "worthless loser", "no woman will ever want a virgin like you" and related comments.

Just last night I had to go to an early Christmas dinner where extended family were present. I was asked the usual, "Hey boy, how old are you now?". Then when I said 30, the expected follow up was, "And you married yet? Where is your wife?". It is a lot of pressure on me from all sides. Since I was 13 or 14, extended family used to make fun of me for not having a girlfriend. There is gossip within the family that I am asexual or gay or mentally retarded. I have been suspected of being autistic, in which case they would not be exactly wrong about that. But retarded or gay, just for failing to have a girlfriend, well, that is a sign of as you say, the stigma of being a male virgin. I have a second cousin who is in his 60s yet still single. Extended family make him the butt of jokes and call him gay and f****t behind his back, even though I am very sure that the guy is not gay at all. It is part of the reason why I try to avoid extended family as well as negative people from meetups as much as possible.

I think that studies show that whilst on average, male virgin adults with Asperger's have a lot harder time finding girlfriends and losing their virginity compared to female virgin adults with Asperger's, even though their female counterparts do have on average more sex and more relationships, that often the relationships are broken and rotten, and the women get tricked and taken advantage of more. So it is quite hard for adult virgins for both sides, Asperger's just making it a lot harder. It is like trying to compare which is worse, having one's leg amputated or one's arm amputated. Neither choice is particularly appetising.

I do notice that some scientists are similar to those neurotypical, gregarious types that are highly judgemental. Perhaps they are book smart, but never let their knowledge of science positively influence their personal character in their lives. Perhaps in some cases, having a science background does not even make one a decent person at all. For example, Josef Mengele and Shiro Ishii were both well-trained doctors, but they were also both horrifically brutal, world-renowned war criminals.

That is interesting, I never knew that there were specific meetups for people on the spectrum. My intuition tells me that they probably are not listed on meetup.com, but perhaps Facebook or some other platform. It is strange, for being such a reputedly "accepting" city, people are othered here a lot, and ASD is not seen in a good light at all here, even amongst the younger. In fact, the younger generation, which unfortunately is my own generation, often regard ASD as just a step above "retarded" and "creepy". In the dating world here, "ASD = creepy" is almost an automatic reflex thought.
LundiHvalursson is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Serpentine Leaf
Serpentine Leaf
Member
Serpentine Leaf has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2019
Location: Mid Atlantic
Posts: 166
3 yr Member
687 hugs
given
Default Dec 16, 2019 at 11:01 AM
  #33
I know first-hand how much it hurts to have set something up and then nobody else attends. I wouldn't wish that experience on anybody. I felt like a speck of dust that everybody else had trod into the ground.

I'm a female but experienced embarrassment on my own part, and disgust and shaming from others, about being a virgin until I was 30. But it's so important not to have sex just to have it. Your first experience so often shapes how you view sex, and yourself, for a long time. One example is young gay males whose first experience is something empty and anonymous, and they come to think real love is never possible for them. They end up thinking the "cruising" life is all they deserve, and engage in some really risky behaviors, all because their first guy dictated the terms of the encounter and made it about his own gratification. Straight women can be that nasty to straight men too, so please be careful.

The people you have heard those horrible messages from were not speaking any version of truth, Lundi. Please don't believe them, and please don't think that all people are like that. They feel small and insecure and handle it by going on the attack rather than tackling their own brokenness. A quote may help you here: "Genuine goodness is threatening to those at the opposite of the moral spectrum." I forget who said that one.

It hurts the worst when you hear those messages from family members, especially if you feel you're outnumbered, or that it would be wrong to speak back to them. I have no advice to give on that one, save to hold to your own truth no matter what they say. A lot of people in these modern, unstable times are feeling lost and insecure, that the world is shifting beneath our feet and we have so little to hold onto anymore. Ripping other people apart is how some people boost their own egos. It sucks, but it's about them, not about the targets of their aggression. That's a lesson that took a long time to sink in with me, and I absorbed a lot of the negative messages I heard from other people. Not only that, but I repeated them to myself and smashed apart my own self-esteem. Please don't repeat my mistake! You're an awesome person and deserve to tell yourself that.

You're certainly right that it's hard to compare different people's particular difficulties. The arm or leg amputation is a very apt analogy. Everybody, no matter their specific struggle, would do well to remember that suffering is universal, no matter what form it takes. We can't fall to arguments about which group of people has suffered the most. That only invalidates everybody's pain.

You're certainly right that just because someone is a scientist, does not mean they live by reason or good character. Mengele and Ishii are not the only ones of their line, nor will they be the last. Intelligence, education, and training are all nothing more than tools, and it depends on the person's integrity whether those tools are used to improve people's lives or to destroy them.

It might be good to do some searches for conferences and such for people with ASD. I can't think of any specific names right now. FB probably has something, but I don't know, I'm not on that platform. Meetup.com is, as we have discussed, designed for the over-the-top extroverted NTs. Some people who consider themselves super open-minded have their own specific biases that they refuse to acknowledge. I see this first-hand all the time. I work as a custodian at a university and see how professors behave who consider themselves open-minded and free of bias. They'll be perfectly friendly to a black or Hispanic custodian, but rude to one who is white or Asian unless that person is an immigrant. That shows their racism: they consider the job appropriate for someone black or brown or an immigrant, but a native-born white or Asian person is supposed to have achieved more, and if they "failed" to do so, it's because they're lazy/stupid/etc. And some display open disgust and contempt to anyone in a working-class position there, as do the middle-class white students.

ASD is highly stigmatized in a culture that demands effortless, tip-top social skills as a measure of human worth. STEM careers are usually touted as a good path for those on the spectrum, but that discrimination exists in those fields too. All I can suggest is to find your niche, and don't listen to those trying to rip you down. You're going through a rough time right now and they're only making it harder. I really think you will flourish once you find your place of belonging. That's something we all need. Keep looking forward to your further schooling! You could find your right people and environment there.
Serpentine Leaf is offline  
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Dec 17, 2019 at 02:53 AM
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine Leaf View Post
I know first-hand how much it hurts to have set something up and then nobody else attends. I wouldn't wish that experience on anybody. I felt like a speck of dust that everybody else had trod into the ground.

I'm a female but experienced embarrassment on my own part, and disgust and shaming from others, about being a virgin until I was 30. But it's so important not to have sex just to have it. Your first experience so often shapes how you view sex, and yourself, for a long time. One example is young gay males whose first experience is something empty and anonymous, and they come to think real love is never possible for them. They end up thinking the "cruising" life is all they deserve, and engage in some really risky behaviors, all because their first guy dictated the terms of the encounter and made it about his own gratification. Straight women can be that nasty to straight men too, so please be careful.

The people you have heard those horrible messages from were not speaking any version of truth, Lundi. Please don't believe them, and please don't think that all people are like that. They feel small and insecure and handle it by going on the attack rather than tackling their own brokenness. A quote may help you here: "Genuine goodness is threatening to those at the opposite of the moral spectrum." I forget who said that one.

It hurts the worst when you hear those messages from family members, especially if you feel you're outnumbered, or that it would be wrong to speak back to them. I have no advice to give on that one, save to hold to your own truth no matter what they say. A lot of people in these modern, unstable times are feeling lost and insecure, that the world is shifting beneath our feet and we have so little to hold onto anymore. Ripping other people apart is how some people boost their own egos. It sucks, but it's about them, not about the targets of their aggression. That's a lesson that took a long time to sink in with me, and I absorbed a lot of the negative messages I heard from other people. Not only that, but I repeated them to myself and smashed apart my own self-esteem. Please don't repeat my mistake! You're an awesome person and deserve to tell yourself that.

You're certainly right that it's hard to compare different people's particular difficulties. The arm or leg amputation is a very apt analogy. Everybody, no matter their specific struggle, would do well to remember that suffering is universal, no matter what form it takes. We can't fall to arguments about which group of people has suffered the most. That only invalidates everybody's pain.

You're certainly right that just because someone is a scientist, does not mean they live by reason or good character. Mengele and Ishii are not the only ones of their line, nor will they be the last. Intelligence, education, and training are all nothing more than tools, and it depends on the person's integrity whether those tools are used to improve people's lives or to destroy them.

It might be good to do some searches for conferences and such for people with ASD. I can't think of any specific names right now. FB probably has something, but I don't know, I'm not on that platform. Meetup.com is, as we have discussed, designed for the over-the-top extroverted NTs. Some people who consider themselves super open-minded have their own specific biases that they refuse to acknowledge. I see this first-hand all the time. I work as a custodian at a university and see how professors behave who consider themselves open-minded and free of bias. They'll be perfectly friendly to a black or Hispanic custodian, but rude to one who is white or Asian unless that person is an immigrant. That shows their racism: they consider the job appropriate for someone black or brown or an immigrant, but a native-born white or Asian person is supposed to have achieved more, and if they "failed" to do so, it's because they're lazy/stupid/etc. And some display open disgust and contempt to anyone in a working-class position there, as do the middle-class white students.

ASD is highly stigmatized in a culture that demands effortless, tip-top social skills as a measure of human worth. STEM careers are usually touted as a good path for those on the spectrum, but that discrimination exists in those fields too. All I can suggest is to find your niche, and don't listen to those trying to rip you down. You're going through a rough time right now and they're only making it harder. I really think you will flourish once you find your place of belonging. That's something we all need. Keep looking forward to your further schooling! You could find your right people and environment there.
It is especially crushing when seeing that not only the number of attendees decreases, but also that the attendees are also just as rude and judgemental as any other person here. I eventually just went to the bar alone, a meetup of just one person.

That is unfortunate that you suffered so much stigma for being a female virgin. It seems that virginity has always been a negative trait, and that as time passes by this stigma is becoming more extreme rather than receding, which is also very unfortunate. It is impossible to influence society by trying to teach people to have open minds and be less judgemental, given that there seems to be a growing trend to berate others for their alleged "weird" characteristics.

I see what you mean about the first experience. On the forum, I see quite a lot of virgin males that are so embarrassed about their status, that they have to for example go to Amsterdam's Red Light District and "get it over with" as fast as possible, just to say that they have done it. I would never do something like that. I know that a lot of virgin men feel like they need to almost get rid of their virginity so that they can stop being in a stigmatised position in life, but I just cannot do that for the sake of it. Just to rush like hell to "get it over with" meaninglessly to please society is not worth it.

Over here this is a part of what is called a "social resumé". Just like a CV for job applications, one's social resumé means have you completed certain tasks and or have certain traits to be considered "normal". On your social resumé it is unspoken, but generally accepted that in order to be accepted by one's peers, it is imperative to not be a virgin adult under any circumstance, but also have had a list of ex-partners plus numerous sexual experiences as "proof" of your "normalcy". Then you can carry around your "social resumé" with good reputation. In this way, someone like I who is still a virgin has a poor social resumé. It would be comparable to having a record on your CV that you had been fired from your previous job for blatant incompetence, and thus is a black mark on your resumé. That would be approximately how virginity is treated in socialising here. So I am basically like an outcast. At least, according to societal norms. I have to ignore these as much as possible.

I think the worst part about extended family insulting due to being a virgin is that you expect blood relatives to be at least somewhat sympathetic no matter what since you are directly related to them. The ones whom you think would help you also shun you. So it is this type of reaction that makes me think that a lot of people really believe that being single and virgin is something very shameful.

It might take a while for me to find specific groups for ASD and such here. I think that just any sort of socialising is geared more to the "normal" people, and that even the nerdy things like tech are considered as given a reprieve from being called "odd" since here is the IT capital of the world. Anything that is nerdy that is not tech/coding/IT is not well received. Foreign languages like my interest is not really considered as interesting. It is basically seen as a useless waste of time that could be spent partying or going out to meet others. Sex is considered a very popular thing. I am not sure if I had said this before, but just like Los Angeles, San Francisco are an important hub for the international porn industry. Just a few miles away from where I live is a dungeon doubled as a porn production studio used for BDSM films to distribute to an international audience. And not to forget that the free love sentiment of the late 1960s and all of the 1970s was born here in San Francisco. I am not sure exactly what caused this obsession with sex, but I can say that one's sexual status and history is very closely tied in with someone's worth as a person. This is a very skewed way of thinking as you say, and one must be cognisant enough to reject this mindset, no matter how much peers try to influence you with this mentality.

I never knew that people in academics were like that. I do get shunned in social settings, for being from a working class background, for not making six figures or more, and of course for being single and virgin. I have a lot of traits that would count as negative points on what I had called the "social resumé".

I am not sure where you are exactly, but your profile says Mid-Atlantic, which I presume is somewhere like Pennsylvania or West Virginia. But here in West Coast California, especially the Bay Area, there is a lot, and I mean a lot, of judging others. Judging others is almost like a pasttime; people will openly roll their eyes at you, turn their backs on you, pretend that you do not exist, gossip with their hands over their mouth whilst pointing at you and whispering to other people, plus other ridiculously blatantly rude things. It really is strange. This city is known to be "accepting", yet I think that it is the most unaccepting, judgemental city not only out of all major cities in USA but also in Europe and other places.

I do see how ASD is shunned especially when social expertise is more or less a prerequisite to be accepted in society. I do see it in STEM fields, but in their own weird way. Here, for example, where there are countless tech people, I notice that a lot of people in tech generally act like teenagers. Saying "bro" and "dude" when they are in their 30s and 40s is common. It is as if their brains were stuck at age 13 and never matured properly thereafter. Attitudes about sex are often held to the same standards to those of people in high school. That is, saying things like "ew virgin loser", which a select few of women have told me over the years, is quite common, no matter that they are in their late 20s or 30s or 40s. What is really annoying about gossip is that it affects how other women think of me.

In the past when people knew about it, another woman could find out through gossip. Losing my "dateability" due to this virgin stigma easily spread, and that was quite depressing.

I think that when I studied in the past, most of my fields were very male-heavy. I studied mathematics, biology and chemical engineering. My classmates in mathematics and chemical engineering were almost all male. I think that the percentage could easily be over 95% male in those fields. In biology, it was a bit more even. However, due to studying too much, I almost never thought too much about dating. I was very focussed on academics. I had no social life. I think that after all of this studying, it stunted my social skills, and by extension, my dating skills. It would not be a lie to state that a 13 year old probably has better social and dating skills that I do.

I take solace as well that I plan in the future probably within the next year or two to study medicine, my lifelong dream that I had insofar been unable for various reasons to fulfil. If I understand correctly, in almost all faculties of medicine in any university, there are usually more female students than male students in this course. Obviously I am not studying medicine just to date the women. But it could help by coincidence that the gender ratio is not horrifically skewed towards males, such as some fields like the notorious computer science/IT field, where it is common to have the entire year's class be 100% male. Perhaps female students of medicine, by the virtue of the subject manner, would be more compassionate, since they are by default aiming to treat ill people. Surely this experience would instill a sense of understanding and a less judgemental attitude. At least that is what I hope. It was what drew me to this field in the first place, the good feeling that one gets from helping people. I know that over here it seems like this mentality is lost on a lot of people, but I would hope that this would offer me a bit more of an opportunity. Over here, I have met a few female acquaintances who had studied medicine but acted very judgemental, especially when they found out about my virginity. But as you say, just because one is in a certain field does not mean that they are going to have compassion or empathy.
LundiHvalursson is offline  
Serpentine Leaf
Member
Serpentine Leaf has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2019
Location: Mid Atlantic
Posts: 166
3 yr Member
687 hugs
given
Default Dec 17, 2019 at 11:05 AM
  #35
When people feel insecure, some will go on the attack. I could go into a whole sociopolitical thing here but that would probably be inappropriate to this forum. Please remember that when they behave that way, it's about them, not you.

You're very wise to avoid those kinds of districts! There are so many risks, and listing them would become a novel-length post.

What you're facing is the local culture, not anything universal. There will always be people who judge, but it's their own insecurity that drives them. That applies to your extended family as well. They're your blood but they still have all the same foibles as those not related to you. You will fare better elsewhere, and keeping a mental barrier in place to protect you from family insult.

Woah, I never knew that about San Francisco, no wonder the culture is so awful! You'll do very well to get out of that nightmare. Just stay true to yourself until you can escape to a more suitable place. Even if no ASD support groups exist around there (though such a major city must have at least one), you have a path forward with your schooling. Focus on that, not what surrounds you.

Professional academics are no different from anybody else. Some are petty, looking down upon each other for specializing in a subject they view as "less than." Some hold onto rigid biases, or are hypocrites. For example, those who go to climate marches yet throw trash and recycling in the wrong bins on a daily basis and use Styrofoam cups for their coffee multiple times in a day. Yet some others are dedicated instructors and researchers. No group of any kind is a monolith.

I'm in southeast PA. It's a patchwork of mini-cultures around here. If you don't mind me saying, it sounds like your area really @@$%ing sucks. A good person can't be expected to thrive in an environment like that. I urge you again not to beat yourself up over it, and not to focus on it excessively. That will only harm your self-esteem and make you too focused on the negative. A lot of people, no matter where they stand in life, never actually grow up, they just grow older. That, unfortunately, is something that seems universal. In a new place where nobody knows you, there won't be gossip. You can get a totally fresh start.

STEM is overwhelmingly dominated by white heterosexual cisgendered males. Efforts to address this have had limited success. You are certainly not the only one to have put an academic career over a social life! No offense intended, but that's almost a cliche. Americans and Brits use the term "wonk." The Japanese use the term "otaku." It's common enough worldwide to have special names, so you most certainly are not alone in that regard!

I wish you the best in your studies. The medical profession is a noble one, so long as the doctor has empathy. I've known some awful ones, but also a few good ones. You will be one of the good ones. The higher percentage of women in your field is a good sign of hope! Most of them will also be likely to have put off the dating scene to focus on their careers. And you'll be alongside people with shared values and goals. Your current environment is full of those who are selfish and shallow. What you'll find in medical school should be completely different. Be prepared for meeting some who are there because of the money and status, or because their parents pushed them there, but just as many if not more will be there because like you, they want to help people become well.
Serpentine Leaf is offline  
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Dec 17, 2019 at 07:14 PM
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine Leaf View Post
When people feel insecure, some will go on the attack. I could go into a whole sociopolitical thing here but that would probably be inappropriate to this forum. Please remember that when they behave that way, it's about them, not you.

You're very wise to avoid those kinds of districts! There are so many risks, and listing them would become a novel-length post.

What you're facing is the local culture, not anything universal. There will always be people who judge, but it's their own insecurity that drives them. That applies to your extended family as well. They're your blood but they still have all the same foibles as those not related to you. You will fare better elsewhere, and keeping a mental barrier in place to protect you from family insult.

Woah, I never knew that about San Francisco, no wonder the culture is so awful! You'll do very well to get out of that nightmare. Just stay true to yourself until you can escape to a more suitable place. Even if no ASD support groups exist around there (though such a major city must have at least one), you have a path forward with your schooling. Focus on that, not what surrounds you.

Professional academics are no different from anybody else. Some are petty, looking down upon each other for specializing in a subject they view as "less than." Some hold onto rigid biases, or are hypocrites. For example, those who go to climate marches yet throw trash and recycling in the wrong bins on a daily basis and use Styrofoam cups for their coffee multiple times in a day. Yet some others are dedicated instructors and researchers. No group of any kind is a monolith.

I'm in southeast PA. It's a patchwork of mini-cultures around here. If you don't mind me saying, it sounds like your area really @@$%ing sucks. A good person can't be expected to thrive in an environment like that. I urge you again not to beat yourself up over it, and not to focus on it excessively. That will only harm your self-esteem and make you too focused on the negative. A lot of people, no matter where they stand in life, never actually grow up, they just grow older. That, unfortunately, is something that seems universal. In a new place where nobody knows you, there won't be gossip. You can get a totally fresh start.

STEM is overwhelmingly dominated by white heterosexual cisgendered males. Efforts to address this have had limited success. You are certainly not the only one to have put an academic career over a social life! No offense intended, but that's almost a cliche. Americans and Brits use the term "wonk." The Japanese use the term "otaku." It's common enough worldwide to have special names, so you most certainly are not alone in that regard!

I wish you the best in your studies. The medical profession is a noble one, so long as the doctor has empathy. I've known some awful ones, but also a few good ones. You will be one of the good ones. The higher percentage of women in your field is a good sign of hope! Most of them will also be likely to have put off the dating scene to focus on their careers. And you'll be alongside people with shared values and goals. Your current environment is full of those who are selfish and shallow. What you'll find in medical school should be completely different. Be prepared for meeting some who are there because of the money and status, or because their parents pushed them there, but just as many if not more will be there because like you, they want to help people become well.
I kind of understand what you mean. I myself am heavily mixed-race, and do not fit easily to any one particular racial group. Based on my physical features, I can pass for all sorts of random ethnicities, like Mexican, Japanese, Arab, Uyghur, Persian, Brazilian, Turkish, etc. People seem to not like my unusual racial makeup since I always get asked about it then lambasted. So I probably seem like an easy target to make fun of to those people.

There is a saying that the women here in the city cooked up. It refers to the men. It is, "The odds are good, but the odds are good." This is a very loaded meaning, but it refers to the fact that San Francisco's gender ratio is heavily skewed towards males, such that like I had said before, in ages 20-40 males it is at least 70% male/30% female. In some areas it might be even higher than that at around 80% male. So the saying refers to the fact that mathematically speaking, women have a lot of choice since there are so many men. However the "goods are odd" part means that the "goods", i.e. the men, are "odd", as in weird. So it is like going to a store and saying that the "goods", i.e. like meat or canned products are "odd" or bad. In other words, the women have so much choice because men outnumber women heavily, but that all of the men are weirdos. I have heard several women tell me this. Not sure if they were hinting at me being odd as well, but I would not be surprised.

I see what you mean about scientific hypocrisy. There are actually those types exactly here: they fight climate change, attend climate marches, yet if you have seen the news, San Francisco is the most polluted city in the entire country. Walk around in the streets, you see rubbish, plastic, food, drink, even human faeces. There is no real sympathy for cleanliness despite San Francisco's heavy support for climate change. It makes no sense.

What also makes no sense is hearing from medical students that they just studied medicine or nursing for the money. I think that is a completely erroneous way of thinking. At least, when I think about why I want to study medicine, making huge sums of money is definitely nowhere near the top reasons for doing so.

I am not familiar too much with your area, as the only near place that I have visited in the general region was Philadelphia and some closeby part of New Jersey more than a decade ago. But you are right, this place has serious problems here. I think that the extreme competitive mindset is a combination of the IT industry, being surrounded by Stanford University to the south plus UC Berkeley to the east, the millionaire/billionaire Marin County to the North, mixed in with general West Coast Californian superficiality. If you ever visit here, I am not sure if you would notice it unless you stayed for a longer period, but you would definitely notice the high level of rubbish in the streets. Not exaggerating, there have been cases in the news where people have been infected by HIV due to stepping on syringes left back by drug addicts in Downtown streets. And they were wearing regular shoes. Imagine wearing sandals or heels.

I think that also what is a negative for me here as well is that my dating mentality is dissimilar to other guys. I feel much more comfortable when a woman approaches or talks to me, rather than when I try to approach. If I approach, I feel very awkward and extremely nervous, since I have had social anxiety since childhood. If a woman approaches me, it takes away a lot of the anxiety for me. So my dating mindset is a bit more like a woman's rather than like the stereotypical man's. This is why a lot of men (and even some women) call me p*ssÿ and other names because I feel uncomfortable doing straightforward approaching women to talk to them.

I think that medicine would be the first time since studying biology where women would outnumber men. I have been in very heavily male environments for most of my adult life. All of my 20s has mostly been in environments that were 90%+ male. Even meetups were terrible. Some meetups were even 100% male. Not once, not twice, but ten times in a row even. Women just never attended. I wonder if they just felt uncomfortable being around so many guys, many of whom were single, and some very desperate.

I do think that medical school in Europe, where salaries are a bit lower than in USA and universal healthcare is the norm rather than privatised healthcare like here, that perhaps the students in general studying there, which by definition extends to mean the women as well, are more sympathetic and more caring. I do not think that parents push their children to study medicine just for some sort of abstract "prestigious" title feeling. I had a vague dream of marrying a woman who were a doctor when I was younger, because I thought that the sympathetic factor would be a big plus. For example, my female doctor had asked me if I was sexually active. Not for the same motive as the women at meetups obviously, but she had to know and if I were at risk for STIs. I cannot imagine any of the women who made fun of me for being a virgin being a good doctor. I mean, what would they do if they were my doctor, I tell them I am a virgin, and then they laugh at me? It would be beyond ridiculous.

I remember one date in 2016 with a Venezuelan woman who was studying English here, where we had planned to go to a certain restaurant then a certain bar thereafter. However, upon meeting, she immediately changed plans and told me that we were going to some other places instead. I was completely baffled, and throughout the whole night I was just confused as to why she had done this. She was laughing on and off throughout, and made fun of me for being rigid and getting startled/confused by change. She told me in Spanish, "You really need everything organised like clockwork, eh?" then laughed at me. Later, since she had already known that I was an introvert who spent a lot of time alone at home, she said, "Well, I got you to get out of your cave this time." This is probably one of my "better" dates, compared to the other disasters. You may be right that the environment is not conducive to people like me. Not only the Asperger's, but the crippling social anxiety that was worse when I was a child, plus social awkwardness. It seems like acceptance is not really a prized trait here.
LundiHvalursson is offline  
Serpentine Leaf
Member
Serpentine Leaf has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2019
Location: Mid Atlantic
Posts: 166
3 yr Member
687 hugs
given
Default Dec 18, 2019 at 09:38 PM
  #37
People who don't like to think with nuance don't respond well to someone they can't place into a neat little box. I'll repeat the advice to not worry about it; its them, not you. Especially in our modern climate, people think of the "other" in terms of stereotype or even caricature.

Hetero cis men all over the world speak of women as commodities; that's a strange reversal where you live, and no better.

Jobs with high pay and high prestige will always draw those who seek that alone, regardless of whether the idealized version if the job is one of helping people or not.

A lack of community, belonging, and mutual respect will inevitably lead to just about every issue you have mentioned that plagues your city. Have you ever considered volunteer work, faith groups, or political groups? Taking action in my area has helped me to feel more connected and helped me to meet other people with similar values.

Trust me, lots of women out there like "shy guys" and see it as sweet, not shameful. You have to be who you are. Women spot a phony pretty quickly and that's always a turn-off, unless all she's looking for is a quick easy shag. But most women will feel uncomfortable being that outnumbered by men. I'm not sure if any straight man can understand what that's like. I too would bolt if I was the only woman in a room full of desperate men. I experienced sexual harassment in my first job, an ex-boyfriend's behavior after a breakup verged on stalking, and I've had SO many very creepy middle-aged men hit on me. A woman's safety is in danger from men everywhere she goes; that's just a daily reality of life anywhere in the world. Shy guys are much less threatening than more assertive ones. That isn't a downside to every woman, even if the ones you have met were put off.


You might fare much better when you head to Europe. American culture, especially the twisted microcosm of it that surrounds you in San Francisco, is not the whole world.

The woman just didn't understand ASD; your needs are textbook traits of the neurological difference. Bad experiences form such misunderstandings will cause social anxiety. I really think an ASD support group would help you if there's one near your home for adults. Check for online support groups too. There's a forum here on PC as well, I'm not sure how active it is. But you don't have to tie yourself to just one. It isn't uncommon for people to accept certain types of difference but not others. Unfortunately that happens even in activist groups working for cultural change.
Serpentine Leaf is offline  
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Dec 18, 2019 at 11:45 PM
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine Leaf View Post
People who don't like to think with nuance don't respond well to someone they can't place into a neat little box. I'll repeat the advice to not worry about it; its them, not you. Especially in our modern climate, people think of the "other" in terms of stereotype or even caricature.

Hetero cis men all over the world speak of women as commodities; that's a strange reversal where you live, and no better.

Jobs with high pay and high prestige will always draw those who seek that alone, regardless of whether the idealized version if the job is one of helping people or not.

A lack of community, belonging, and mutual respect will inevitably lead to just about every issue you have mentioned that plagues your city. Have you ever considered volunteer work, faith groups, or political groups? Taking action in my area has helped me to feel more connected and helped me to meet other people with similar values.

Trust me, lots of women out there like "shy guys" and see it as sweet, not shameful. You have to be who you are. Women spot a phony pretty quickly and that's always a turn-off, unless all she's looking for is a quick easy shag. But most women will feel uncomfortable being that outnumbered by men. I'm not sure if any straight man can understand what that's like. I too would bolt if I was the only woman in a room full of desperate men. I experienced sexual harassment in my first job, an ex-boyfriend's behavior after a breakup verged on stalking, and I've had SO many very creepy middle-aged men hit on me. A woman's safety is in danger from men everywhere she goes; that's just a daily reality of life anywhere in the world. Shy guys are much less threatening than more assertive ones. That isn't a downside to every woman, even if the ones you have met were put off.


You might fare much better when you head to Europe. American culture, especially the twisted microcosm of it that surrounds you in San Francisco, is not the whole world.

The woman just didn't understand ASD; your needs are textbook traits of the neurological difference. Bad experiences form such misunderstandings will cause social anxiety. I really think an ASD support group would help you if there's one near your home for adults. Check for online support groups too. There's a forum here on PC as well, I'm not sure how active it is. But you don't have to tie yourself to just one. It isn't uncommon for people to accept certain types of difference but not others. Unfortunately that happens even in activist groups working for cultural change.
The treating people like commodities is very common here. In dating, the numerical scale of 1-10 by marking someone by their physical looks is very popular. It is also used as labels. Instead of referring to people by name, they use the number. For example, a man might tell his male friend, "Hey did you talk to the 5 over there?" and the friend might respond, "No, I only talked with the two 6's". A woman might tell her girlfriend, "Did you see that 3 over there?" and her friend could reply, "That guy was a 0.5, just look at him!" Both genders seem to consider each other as sub-humans on a regular basis. However, that saying, "The odds are good, but the goods are odd" is specifically women referring to there being excessive amounts of men in the city, and that all of the men are defective.

I am considering formally joining a certain working-class presidential candidate's campaign, probably as an entry-level local campaign worker. His name starts with "B", which probably makes it a bit obvious who he is. I have been a supporter for years, and I was thinking that perhaps there would be more like-minded people, less judgemental and less classist, especially given that most of his supporters earn less than six figures, like me. And unlike the majority of people in this city. Most people here make not only more than six figures, but many make millions. $120000 is the poverty line in San Francisco--making less than $120000 per year is officially considered as "poor". I attended his rallies before, and the supporters there were kind and friendly. And clearly, no one there asked me about my sex life.

I do find, and have always found since I was a young boy, that I felt more at home in Europe than here in USA. The culture in Europe is, to summarise, just more similar to me as a person. Introverted people are not considered scum in Europe. I studied in the UK and had a nice time. Although whether you can call UK as part of Europe as of right now is to be debated, but that is another story. In any case, people were much friendlier than in California, notwithstanding the very untrue stereotype that British people are reserved and stand-offish. A Mediterranean country like Italy have even more welcoming and friendlier people.

That does comfort me to know that the "shy guy" is valued by some women. In my mind, I always had this belief that shy, awkward guys like I were considered as rejects. That was mostly due to how I was treated, as well as fellow shy guy friends and acquaintances. I had one acquaintance from a foreign language meetup. He was 33 and still a virgin despite not wanting to be one, so similar to me but older. He had told me various times about how he had went on dates and got rejected outright immediately when women had found out about his virginity. I have even seen him get sly comments at meetups. For example, he would be in a group and introduce himself to a group of women. Then someone next to him would tell the women, "Oh, he is a bit shy, because you know, he is still a...virgin, so, ya know..." and I could see him get embarrassed due to his face turning red. I thought, well if not only I get treated like this due to being a virgin, but also other shy virgin males, then I guess that shy, virgin males really are universally considered as rejects by women. Again, forgetting to take into account sample bias. It may very well be true that in this city the shy, virgin male is considered a reject compared to other places in the world, but the world is so large that there are so many other places where this is not the case.

I see what you mean about thinking outside of my city. Recently I was in a group that was, as you guessed, talking about dating. A guy said how the dating scene is so brutal for guys. A woman retorted, "The dating scene is brutal because the men are just sub-par. Up your game guys, if you cannot handle the heat, get out of the kitchen! Dating is for the cream of the crop, we do not want average guys. Being an 8 or 9 is a minimum!" I think that that really opened my eyes about how dating is considered here. Dating is almost entirely based on Social Darwinism--like in the wild, the shy, awkward animals get no mates whilst the so-called "alpha males" get all of the mates. So I probably just should not even be trying in such an environment. Not to mention, I find Social Darwinism to be an appalling philosophy.

I just noticed how Social Darwinism infests society here. San Francisco have the highest homeless population not only of any city in USA, but also of any city in the entire Western World (Europe, North America, Australia, New Zealand). That is astonishing. The mentality is if one is rich, ***** the poor. If one is attractive, ***** the ugly. If one is extroverted, ***** the introverted. Society is so much about the "me, me, me" mindset, combined with a nasty twist of the early 1980s saying, "Greed is good".

I had a feeling that she did not understand me. Just recently also I realised that I kept going out with extroverted neurotypical women who most likely have absolutely no idea what ASD is like. Probably neither social anxiety, since they seemed at ease in almost all social situations, when I felt shaky and nervous. It would be very hard for such different personalities to match.
LundiHvalursson is offline  
Serpentine Leaf
Member
Serpentine Leaf has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2019
Location: Mid Atlantic
Posts: 166
3 yr Member
687 hugs
given
Default Dec 19, 2019 at 10:30 AM
  #39
I've donated to a candidate for the first time this year and volunteered for his campaign events in my area. We might be supporting the same one! We can PM about that if you like. But the fellow supporters have all been very nice people with a strong values system, and genuinely believe in respect and equality. There has been a little class bias form a few, but not intentional. Implicit bias, especially on class issues, is woven into the fabric of American culture.

What's considered "poor" where you live is unfathomable to me. They'd probably consider me underclass rather than working class. That extremity of easy affluence certainly taints their world view. I urge you not to focus too much on a culture that toxic. You won't find your place there, so keep on looking forward to your goals. You'll find your pond somewhere else. I've been following Brexit too, and I fully know what you mean about the UK being European and yet not, with a steadily increasing murkiness of the definition. It sounds like you already found a better fit for you, so you already have a path ahead.


Shy guys are only rejected by over-the-top extroverts. Shy women, women who have been in bad relationships, women on the spectrum, and several others who don't quite fall into "type" would likely prefer a shy guy. Good for you for placing your experiences in the context of sample bias. Where you live does not at all represent the entire world.

That was classic Social Darwinism right there. I 100% agree that it's appalling, both morally and factually. Imagine the loss to the scientific world if Stephen Hawking had been told to go and die when he was diagnosed with ALS at 21. And how many other scientists, artists, and philosophers have had disabilities, or been on the spectrum, or been LGBTQ? That alpha male and alpha female nonsense disgusts me and I wouldn't date either one (I'm bisexual).

It isn't at all uncommon for areas with very high affluence to also have nearby high poverty. That affluence comes from somewhere, and it sure isn't hard work alone. America is considered one of the richest nations in the world, if not the very richest, yet we also lead the world in rates of child hunger and poverty. Areas of rural poor have no nearby physical or mental healthcare and terrible schools, and certainly no higher education. Social Darwinism at work again, because rural is considered "less than." In any regard, not just economic, those who have less are considered as BEING less.

The ubiquitous narcissism in our culture disgusts me and makes me also battle against misanthropy. I have seen people who genuinely care about others and devote their lives to selfless service. The candidate I support also gives me hope. That ugly element certainly exists, and sees greed and selfishness as natural or even beneficial, but it isn't the whole of our population.

Highly extroverted NTs (I call them HENTs) would never understand ASD or social anxiety. I actually was diagnosed with ASD at 31, but I don't think it's accurate. I was in a bad place mentally at the time and while I do have some traits ( my whole family does), I don't think I'm all the way on the spectrum. I tend to think of the figurative before the literal, and I can read facial expressions and body language even though I was a slow learner (I grew up pretty isolated). But I do have hyper-sensitive hearing, have had some bad meltdowns, and have always thought in a way that's very different from others. The social situations you were part of were created by and for HENTs. They WILL navigate them with ease, and cast out those who can't swim along.
Serpentine Leaf is offline  
LundiHvalursson
Member
LundiHvalursson has no updates.
 
Member Since: Sep 2019
Location: California, USA
Posts: 129
3 yr Member
Default Dec 19, 2019 at 05:24 PM
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine Leaf View Post
I've donated to a candidate for the first time this year and volunteered for his campaign events in my area. We might be supporting the same one! We can PM about that if you like. But the fellow supporters have all been very nice people with a strong values system, and genuinely believe in respect and equality. There has been a little class bias form a few, but not intentional. Implicit bias, especially on class issues, is woven into the fabric of American culture.

What's considered "poor" where you live is unfathomable to me. They'd probably consider me underclass rather than working class. That extremity of easy affluence certainly taints their world view. I urge you not to focus too much on a culture that toxic. You won't find your place there, so keep on looking forward to your goals. You'll find your pond somewhere else. I've been following Brexit too, and I fully know what you mean about the UK being European and yet not, with a steadily increasing murkiness of the definition. It sounds like you already found a better fit for you, so you already have a path ahead.


Shy guys are only rejected by over-the-top extroverts. Shy women, women who have been in bad relationships, women on the spectrum, and several others who don't quite fall into "type" would likely prefer a shy guy. Good for you for placing your experiences in the context of sample bias. Where you live does not at all represent the entire world.

That was classic Social Darwinism right there. I 100% agree that it's appalling, both morally and factually. Imagine the loss to the scientific world if Stephen Hawking had been told to go and die when he was diagnosed with ALS at 21. And how many other scientists, artists, and philosophers have had disabilities, or been on the spectrum, or been LGBTQ? That alpha male and alpha female nonsense disgusts me and I wouldn't date either one (I'm bisexual).

It isn't at all uncommon for areas with very high affluence to also have nearby high poverty. That affluence comes from somewhere, and it sure isn't hard work alone. America is considered one of the richest nations in the world, if not the very richest, yet we also lead the world in rates of child hunger and poverty. Areas of rural poor have no nearby physical or mental healthcare and terrible schools, and certainly no higher education. Social Darwinism at work again, because rural is considered "less than." In any regard, not just economic, those who have less are considered as BEING less.

The ubiquitous narcissism in our culture disgusts me and makes me also battle against misanthropy. I have seen people who genuinely care about others and devote their lives to selfless service. The candidate I support also gives me hope. That ugly element certainly exists, and sees greed and selfishness as natural or even beneficial, but it isn't the whole of our population.

Highly extroverted NTs (I call them HENTs) would never understand ASD or social anxiety. I actually was diagnosed with ASD at 31, but I don't think it's accurate. I was in a bad place mentally at the time and while I do have some traits ( my whole family does), I don't think I'm all the way on the spectrum. I tend to think of the figurative before the literal, and I can read facial expressions and body language even though I was a slow learner (I grew up pretty isolated). But I do have hyper-sensitive hearing, have had some bad meltdowns, and have always thought in a way that's very different from others. The social situations you were part of were created by and for HENTs. They WILL navigate them with ease, and cast out those who can't swim along.
I also have donated for the first time to a political candidate. He has the most donations, both net money amount plus amount of donators. The people in his campaign are very different from people whom I have met at meetups.

There is no middle class here. People are in one of two camps--either one is making six figures, usually $200000+, sometimes millions, or one is very poor, living in a tent on the street. It really is a binary thing, there is nothing much in the middle. I have no friends here, because all of my old friends from school have moved out voluntarily or been evicted due to being unable to pay rent. Most people who live here are very well off, although many are struggling. $200000 is considered a "marginal" salary. Average rent now is between $3500-$6000 per month. I have met some people who pay even $7000 per month for a small one-bedroom flat Downtown. And as you say, affluence from the millionaire class brings a lot of a superiority complex and looking down on the poor people. Some people have made fun of me telling me to go on welfare and stuff. Since they make $400000 per year or whatever, they often slag on me. I get passive-aggressive insults for not wearing expensive designer clothes, or the fact that I do not own a suit. The famous saying is that money cannot buy happiness. I would add that money cannot buy manners nor good character.

I think that one of the reasons for the dating pool to be as it is, is that most males who move to San Francisco are almost invariably IT workers. I would say that well over 90% of all males moving to San Francisco are connected with IT in some way or another. However, most females moving to San Francisco are usually in finance, real estate or some other monied field. By virtue of males in IT, the males in the city have a higher than average incidence of ASD. However, the females seem to have a lower than average incidence of ASD. So now I can see that perhaps the fact that neurotypical women are meeting IT guys who may or may not have ASD, and someone like me who is not in IT but still has the disorder, relationships rarely work out and there is a lot of animosity between genders in the overall dating scene.

The women who are in finance, hotel management, business, etc. tend to be more on the extrovert side, as well as more on the hard partying side. I have extremely rarely met an introverted woman in this city, if I had to guess perhaps one, maybe two at the very most in all of my time living here. Like the last time that I went on a date in August 2019, she could with great ease navigate in any social situation. To me it was like seeing a genie work magic. When I stutter or screw up my speech when talking, it often raises eyebrows. They know right away that I am not socially adept. I have been told that perhaps because I am an only child, I grew up very socially awkward. This may be somewhat true, but I think that even if I had siblings, I would still have grown up awkward. In Europe however, in my experience there seems to be a lot of introverted women. Of course there are a lot of extroverted ones in Europe as well, but introverts are not bashed on a regular basis for being out of the norm.

Social Darwinism is in play here. Poor people are being kicked out of their housing due to unable to pay rent, and end up homeless. We already have the highest homeless population in the entire Western World, and it is just increasing more and more. But a lot of IT people especially support kicking poor people out of their homes. It means that rich people who move here can take their spot in buying properties where poor people's homes used to be. I find that sick and seriously lacking empathy. People with ASD are often accused of lack of empathy, but what about neurotypical rich people who hate poor people so much that they would rather make poor people homeless?

I hear Social Darwinism in dating too. People do not want a partner who is a "7" because a "7" would make their children be less than the best when they grow up. Or that being with a "7" in public would ruin their reputation for settling for someone like that. They want a partner who is 8, 9 or 10. Not even considering if they themselves are 8, 9 or 10. I can only imagine what women who only want an 8+ would think of someone like me. Or rather, I should probably not even think about it, since I would not date someone like that anyway.

I think that there are different levels of ASD. If I understand correctly Level 1 is Asperger's, or high-functioning. Probably we are both in that category. In any case, the neurotypicals do handle social situations with remarkable grace and tact. I know over five languages to either advanced or near-native level, and a few others to high-intermediate, but trying to speak "neurotypical" is something that I have failed to do and seem to have a lot of trouble with. I am learning non-related languages such as Russian and Farsi right now. Both are difficult for me, but much easier compared to speaking NT.
LundiHvalursson is offline  
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:09 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® — Copyright © 2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.



 

My Support Forums

My Support Forums is the online community that was originally begun as the Psych Central Forums in 2001. It now runs as an independent self-help support group community for mental health, personality, and psychological issues and is overseen by a group of dedicated, caring volunteers from around the world.

 

Helplines and Lifelines

The material on this site is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment provided by a qualified health care provider.

Always consult your doctor or mental health professional before trying anything you read here.