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Amyjay
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Default Oct 07, 2019 at 05:03 PM
  #1
I want to put feelers out here for conversation around this topic. I am grappling with it in therapy at the moment and can't quite get it.
For many years our system was ruled by those alters who live in denial. They are positively attached to the perpetrators and live as though there is no problem in life at all. (Apart from the fact that, without being consciously aware of it, they had to live a very restricted life in order to not be triggered into Others.) T describes these alters as ANPs... they just get on with life and study and parenting and ignored anything and everything that might trigger them out of their little bubbles.
They have receded more and now there is new group of alters in front... me and others who are aware of the abuse and definitely do not like our perpetrators or want to see them. We go to therapy and very much struggle with work and parenting and depression and PTSD and triggers etc. T says we are much more connected to the EPs, the trauma holders. Which is true.
In therapy at the moment these two groups of alters are trying to understand the other... and while we can understand in theory, we are vehemently opposed to each other in practise. Those ones who are attached to the perpetrators make us sick... we cannot stand or tolerate being close to the perps, or even thinking about being attached to them in any way. We cannot get past the overriding thought that no part of US could be attached to them. If they are, then they cannot possibly be Us.
Likewise they cannot stand us. They think we are evil liars who should be excised or killed. They vehemently deny that their family is abusive, and do not believe the memories at all.
We have been stuck on this for quite some time now, although we have made progress in other areas this issue prevents us from moving forward any further.
Has anyone else grappled with this? If so , what worked for you to help you move past it?
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Default Oct 07, 2019 at 05:16 PM
  #2
I have. Disorganized attachment is what I have or had or continue to have. I am happy being single for that reason. I just want friends now.

The alters who were like my abusers were Damian and Delilah and the Evil Queen and Evil King and Mastermind. They were scary and mean at first. They learned to be protectors from Johnny and Julia, two protector alters. They wanted approval and love from our abusers, so that is why they were created... To try to please the abusers by identifying with them and then internalizing them. We are not bad; we were just hurt. The alters needed to learn that they were taught wrong and were morally injured. This is what moral injury looks like for DID. Our internalized persecutor alters may be triggering, but they need help and can change. They validate our pain, but it may not seem that way at first. They feel disgusting at first. But that is the self-love or system-love we have to learn for all of our parts.

Disorganized attachment is like constantly shifting different roles, different enmeshment types, different versions of Stockholm syndrome, different feelings. Unlike black-and-white thinking, we think on multiple levels and interact with people on multiple levels. Our moods not only fluctuate, but so do our perceptions, cultural beliefs, likes and dislikes. It depends on our system, and how well we communicate. Our traumas were stored in fragmented memories, it seems, but that is my non-scientific and biased opinion.

The alters you mention served a protecting purpose, though it may not feel that way now. They can learn to be kind and protective and to heal from their unrealized pain, and you can heal with them. It is painful though.
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Default Oct 07, 2019 at 10:27 PM
  #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by lillib View Post
I have. Disorganized attachment is what I have or had or continue to have. I am happy being single for that reason. I just want friends now.

The alters who were like my abusers were Damian and Delilah and the Evil Queen and Evil King and Mastermind. They were scary and mean at first. They learned to be protectors from Johnny and Julia, two protector alters. They wanted approval and love from our abusers, so that is why they were created... To try to please the abusers by identifying with them and then internalizing them. We are not bad; we were just hurt. The alters needed to learn that they were taught wrong and were morally injured. This is what moral injury looks like for DID. Our internalized persecutor alters may be triggering, but they need help and can change. They validate our pain, but it may not seem that way at first. They feel disgusting at first. But that is the self-love or system-love we have to learn for all of our parts.

Disorganized attachment is like constantly shifting different roles, different enmeshment types, different versions of Stockholm syndrome, different feelings. Unlike black-and-white thinking, we think on multiple levels and interact with people on multiple levels. Our moods not only fluctuate, but so do our perceptions, cultural beliefs, likes and dislikes. It depends on our system, and how well we communicate. Our traumas were stored in fragmented memories, it seems, but that is my non-scientific and biased opinion.

The alters you mention served a protecting purpose, though it may not feel that way now. They can learn to be kind and protective and to heal from their unrealized pain, and you can heal with them. It is painful though.
Thanks so much for your reply. Interesting that you raised the topic of Stockholm syndrome. T talked about that with us just last week and I wasn't ready to hear anything about it. I can't contemplate any part of this person liking them.
I thought I had an avoidant attachment style because I myself would prefer to avoid any attachment to anyone at all. T is trying to get me used to the idea that WE altogether fall into the disorganized attachment framework. So I am definitely trying to get used to the idea of there being other parts of me/this system that feel differently to me with regards to the perpetrators. Whom others in this system still see from time to time. They disgust me/I disgust them I suppose.
It sure is hard.
I guess I'd like to ask how did you get to a place of accepting those others in your system?
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Default Oct 07, 2019 at 10:54 PM
  #4
@Amyjay

I am so sorry you are struggling with this. I hope I did not trigger you. If so, please forgive me.

The road I took to integrating the perpetrator alters was long. The perp alters were encouraged to talk. But over 10 years ago, they shared online and got me kicked off of online support groups. I was hurt. But I understood the need to ban me. I was alone for many years until now, this being the only site I chose for support since there are mental professionals around.

But back to integration... I spent years in therapy. Some for DID, but some for PTSD. The persecutor alters were initially mean, angry, threatening, intrusive, and verbally harmful. I was depressed and my entire system was chaotic. The T told the persecutor alters to go away and for me to ignore them. That only made it worse. I left T and went with another T. The other T did not believe in DID, but the other T got to hear only the persecutor alter. The other T gave the persecutor alter some skills, but we wound up getting put into a psych ward. The T got scared. The persecutor alter just laughed. I cried. It was a mess.

Later, I tried to work with other Ts who somewhat understood DID. The internal family systems worked eventually. I kept writing to the dark, persecutor alters. They kept writing me back. We all worked to help them change. We eventually showed them consistent kindness but firmness whenever they threatened me or my parts. They were trained by helping alters through writing and internal talking to become better. They did some of the exercises we learned in the trauma hospital called relapse prevention, a form of CBT. We used CBT all the time with all of the alters. It helped us all to change eventually.

Then, after crying and shaking in a therapist's office, I had to deal with my feeling like a bad.person because of the persecutor parts of me, even though they changed. I realized they were there to really help me and protect me during the scariest times. I had lots of nightmares and depression. But about a year or so later, I realized that I felt some of the anger, fears, and memories. I could only remember bits and pieces before I blacked out. But it all made more sense the more the alters explained. We all needed to control our anger, paranoia, and fears, not just the persecutor alters. I needed to face it. I did, and I painfully accepted those parts as me. I fused with them during this entire time. I integrated and since then realized that I am in more control now and have more compassion for myself and others because of it. My emotions and memories were not as painful, though they are still there.

That is how I did it. It took about 5 years or more.
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Default Oct 10, 2019 at 01:32 AM
  #5
Huh. I never thought about how having anxiously attached system members and avoidantly attached system members might add up to a disorganized attachment style...but it makes sense and explains a lot. Thank you.
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Default Nov 02, 2019 at 04:05 PM
  #6
I want to raise this topic again after watching a new Netflix documentary called "Tell me who I am". It isn't about DID, but is the true story of identical twin brothers who were severely abused in childhood. They didn't dissociate but always remembered the abuse. That is, until one of the twins had a near fatal head injury and awoke from his coma with absolutely no memory of anything or anyone, except for his brother. Basic story is, his brother nurses him back to health but does not tell him about the abuse. So this twin interacts with his family as though nothing ever happened. This is the part that has intrigued me, as I have alters that interact with our family as though nothing has ever happened. But it HAS happened. And those alters just don't get it.

Has anyone else seen this movie or is anyone else familiar with this dynamic? We are trying so hard to work through this at the moment, and want to find a way to reach those alters in us that are still attached to the perpetrators.
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Default Nov 03, 2019 at 10:24 AM
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amyjay View Post
I want to raise this topic again after watching a new Netflix documentary called "Tell me who I am". It isn't about DID, but is the true story of identical twin brothers who were severely abused in childhood. They didn't dissociate but always remembered the abuse. That is, until one of the twins had a near fatal head injury and awoke from his coma with absolutely no memory of anything or anyone, except for his brother. Basic story is, his brother nurses him back to health but does not tell him about the abuse. So this twin interacts with his family as though nothing ever happened. This is the part that has intrigued me, as I have alters that interact with our family as though nothing has ever happened. But it HAS happened. And those alters just don't get it.

Has anyone else seen this movie or is anyone else familiar with this dynamic? We are trying so hard to work through this at the moment, and want to find a way to reach those alters in us that are still attached to the perpetrators.
@Amyjay

I haven't seen that documentary, but I'm interested in watching it in the future. Thanks for sharing.

I've watched movies like the "Bourne Identity" series and "50 First Dates," which remind me about my own memory loss. Both deal with trauma, but both also deal with memory loss. I've often wondered if DID could include memory loss, as opposed to fragmented memories that hold amnesiac barriers between them.

For the persecutor alters (I'm not sure what ANP stands for), they hold some sort of interalized yucky memories that mimic my various abusers.

Possible trigger:


We're still trying to figure out how disorganized attachment fits in. Maybe it's our switching behaviors and moods that appear "disorganized" to other people. It's not push and pull exactly, but it is different levels of engagement. --Could that be it??

As far as memory, I wonder if our identities are the sum of our memories, or if our identities are separate from our memories. That's another point to ponder. Hmm...

(((safe hugs)))
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Trig Nov 03, 2019 at 10:28 AM
  #8
It's natural for some parts to have amnesiac barriers with other parts, and it's hard for the host to hear this let alone for the other parts who don't hold those memories to hear the parts that do hold the memories. It's all a way of protecting the system as a whole, and the host from completely shutting down.

Possible trigger:


(((safe hugs x a million)))
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