[sarahsweets]

I want to treat this subject matter as sensitively as I can and I certainly do not want to disrespect or offend anyone; especially anyone who has ever been affected by or who has been a victim of any sort of violence. I was reading an article just a little while ago and I was thinking very seriously about this subject. Do you think that mass shooting events have anything to do with gender or mental health?

The reason I ask is the article I was reading talked specifically of males and men in regards to mass shooting events. I do not know enough about this subject to determine if there ever has been a female or woman involved in a mass shooting event and I was just wondering about it.
I do not want to compare mass shooting events and violence to mental health but I wonder does mental health play any role in it at all? Or is it simply a misguided extremist issue with someone who is unstable but not suffering a diagnosable mental illness?
Is it a situation where sterotypically men are more prone to violence? Is that even a valid argument to consider ? I do not know if statistically men are more prone to violence. I would think that it’s a plausible possibility but I do not know for sure if any of that would provable. If you do you believe that men are more prone to violence and extremism why do you suppose that women are not? What kind of innate differences exist between the genders when it comes to violence and extremism?
One can even take into account bullying. All bullies are not extremists and there are female bullies as well, not just male bullies. I realize that this subject cannot be purely broken down into a male/female issue but it is something that I'm interested in exploring.
In regards to mental health: is it fair to assume somebody prone to violence is mentally ill?
On one hand someone could say that only a mentally ill person would commit acts of violence like this. But that is a stigma that we with mental illness suffer every day. People thinking that we are irrational and crazy and who don't understand what it is like to have a mental illness and live with a mental illnes. They might assume that mental illness by default means insane; and that you would need to be insane to commit mass shooting events or violence. Of course I know that is an unfair representation and I do not agree with it one bit. But the world at large think can this way so how do we differentiate between “our” type mental illness, mental illness as it relates to violence and if mental illness has anything to do with it at all?

I suppose the gender issue is less important in the long run but it was something that made me think. I don't recall ever hearing about a female mass killer or a female killing large amounts of people for an extremist reason or for any reason for that matter. I wonder if indeed it is something that is solely done by men or more likely in men; as in scientifically sound genetic or heritability. I think it's unfair to chalk anything up to gender but I was just curious as to why it seems like more men do this sort of thing unless of course I am missing a story or fact or situation where a woman committed a mass killing event.Of course there is a plethora of reasons some of which I will never understand behind why these events take place. Maybe it's a product of society or some other effects that haven’t been determined yet.
I would like to have an open dialogue about this without anyone being mean or derogatory. I would like us all to consider each other’s feelings about this subject. Please, if you feel that this will retraumatize you or trigger you, do not feel pressured to participate. I do not want to do that to anyone. I’m not trying to exclude anyone, I’m just trying to be as forthright and upfront about this uncomfortable subject as I can.

[unaluna]

I think it's pretty well accepted that a gun is a phallic symbol. So there is that. But then it probably goes back to hunters and gatherers. So it's a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[healingme4me]

There's 2 incidences in CA that come to mind with women involved.

And yes, I loathe the stigma that MI gets over such events. It's not fair to lump the notion that everyone with MI is remotely capable of such violence.

[WishfulThinker66]

I think it is obvious that the bulk of these mass shootings are terrorism related. When are they going to stop calling those shootings made by white Christian ultra-conservative men one-off events or those caused by mental derangement?

Why is it that we automatically call a Muslim man a terrorist yet not a white man?

Think of Timothy McVeigh, Alexandre Bisonette, the ecole polytechnique massacre, and most recently the New Zealand mosque shootings. These were not acts necessarily of a delusional male. They absolutely are the acts of terrorism. Take the first, he was a far right wing militia man with a grudge to bear against the establishment. Take the second and the last, these were acts of Islamaphobic racism. The third, the act of an incel with an accusation feminists had prevented him from he himself getting admission to the college.

I could go on. I am sick and tired of the failure to call the acts of white nationalist racist bigots terrorism.

As for the recent events in New Zealand. The American President had an opportunity to address this by disavowing white nationalism supremacy. Unless he has since come out and said otherwise without my knowing and condemned the actions as terrorist, he instead chose to say the American people were sorry, sending his condolences, and thoughts and prayers wasn't good enough.

Good post Sarah. Interesting questions.

You mentioned bullying. An important point. Many psychologists believe that girls are in fact as aggressive as boys but the difference is that angry boys are more likely to engage in physical aggression whereas angry girls engage in relational aggression (gossiping, trying to tarnish a girl's reputation, excluding her from the group etc).

You are right. The vast majority of violent crime is perpetrated by men. Why?

I think there could be a genetic factor though I think possibly what also makes a significant difference is how boys and girls are socialized. Girls at a very young age are expected to be quiet and "get along" and "be kind" etc. It is considered okay for boys to disagree and be loud and "boys will be boys." Boys are still being told not to cry or exhibit outward signs of sadness or fear.

Thought exercise:
imagine yourself at Starbucks waiting for your coffee one morning. You witness a 45 year old man in a business suit screaming and berating the barista (a 16 yr old girl) because the amount of foam on his cappuccino was wrong. Now imagine instead that the 45 yr old screaming at the girl is a woman. Did you feel the same way in each scenario? Have you ever seen that happen? I've witnessed grown men do this on more than one occasion. I have never seen a woman behave like that at a coffee shop. It's skewed I realize because I obviously have not been to every coffee place all over the world to make obs.
But you see my point. I think if a 45 yr old woman behaved that way, she would receive much harsher responses and more shock from the public than the man. I could be wrong...but if you look at something more serious....a man who killed his child versus a woman who killed her child....I find the press coverage is actually much tougher on the female perpetrator because on some level violence from men is expected.

I think it is possible that as women take on more and more dominant positions of power in society, we could start to see more violence from women. For example, there have already been some cases of sexual harassment perpetrated by women in a position of authority over a male subordinate but nobody wants to talk about it. And there are some men silently being attacked by their wives on a regular basis. My doctor recently told me about one of his male patients who has scratch scars all over his face from his wife.

I understand what folks are saying about the stigma of mental illness and not wanting the rest of us to be lumped together with violent offenders. I don't want that either. I live with depression myself. That said, I don't think we could call a 15 yr old boy mentally well right before he went to school one day, shot his peers, and then shot himself. Depression seems to be at the root of many of those school shootings (and easy access to guns).

There is something called psychotic depression. I am wondering if depressed boys are more at risk for it because they are socialized not to display or communicate their sadness, not to ask for help. To be clear, I am NOT saying that most depressed people would hurt someone else. Nor am I saying that a person living with psychotic depression would necessarily hurt someone. I personally knew one woman struggling with psychotic depression. She was not a danger to others; she was convinced that people were trying to poison her. I should also mention that with the right help she got better. Perhaps there was a man out there in the world with a similar condition who never told anyone, never got help, and went on to kill the people he was sure were trying to poison him?

There is evidence that when boys and men get depressed they often engage in externalizing behaviors whereas girls and women tend to internalize. The extreme for boys and men would be homicide. The extreme for girls and women would be suicide. These are trends of course, plenty of depressed men end their lives without a homicidal component. Is the trend genetic or is it because society normalizes girls who are sad and crying and boys who are angry and punch a wall (or someone else).

When someone commits a violent act, I believe we should be studying them and trying to figure out as much as possible about them so we can learn and grow and work on a safer society. When those individuals are deemed "evil monsters" and die by death sentence, I am not sure that helps the rest of us or future generations. Whether we like it or not, those people are human. And sometimes humans engage in heinous acts.

Serial killers. Mostly white men. Terrible abuse often in childhood though not always. Some were born as psychopaths; their brains simply aren't wired the way others are. Completely devoid of empathy. Though not all psychopaths are killers. Many are CEOs. Seriously.

An interesting study would be to compare female and male psychopaths. Is there any similarity in their aggression or violence compared with the rest of the population or are male psychopaths still much more likely to be violent than females?

Another interesting phenomenon I recently read about. Has anyone read about the history of adoption among many violent offenders? Including killers. To be clear, I am NOT saying that all adopted children grow up to be violent. Of course not. But there are some important statistics worth looking at. Some serial killers who targeted women had fantasized about meeting their biological mother and killing her...they never met her...they killed other women instead.

In short, there is much we do not know or understand about our own species. I think the answer is more objective analysis and remembering that humans are still humans regardless of what they have done...they didn't suddenly morph into a new species.

Question: given that most violent crime is committed by boys and men, shouldn't we be trying to help them rather than place all the focus for human rights and development on girls and women? Doesn't equality mean that everyone should get a fair shot in life? If some men are also being sexually harassed by women or beaten by their wives, don't we need to be able to discuss their side of it too? Some feminists would immediately shut me down for even saying that.

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by SilverTrees

Good post Sarah. Interesting questions.


You mentioned bullying. An important point. Many psychologists believe that girls are in fact as aggressive as boys but the difference is that angry boys are more likely to engage in physical aggression whereas angry girls engage in relational aggression (gossiping, trying to tarnish a girl's reputation, excluding her from the group etc).


You are right. The vast majority of violent crime is perpetrated by men. Why?


I think there could be a genetic factor though I think possibly what also makes a significant difference is how boys and girls are socialized. Girls at a very young age are expected to be quiet and "get along" and "be kind" etc. It is considered okay for boys to disagree and be loud and "boys will be boys." Boys are still being told not to cry or exhibit outward signs of sadness or fear.


Thought exercise:

imagine yourself at Starbucks waiting for your coffee one morning. You witness a 45 year old man in a business suit screaming and berating the barista (a 16 yr old girl) because the amount of foam on his cappuccino was wrong. Now imagine instead that the 45 yr old screaming at the girl is a woman. Did you feel the same way in each scenario? Have you ever seen that happen? I've witnessed grown men do this on more than one occasion. I have never seen a woman behave like that at a coffee shop. It's skewed I realize because I obviously have not been to every coffee place all over the world to make obs.

But you see my point. I think if a 45 yr old woman behaved that way, she would receive much harsher responses and more shock from the public than the man. I could be wrong...but if you look at something more serious....a man who killed his child versus a woman who killed her child....I find the press coverage is actually much tougher on the female perpetrator because on some level violence from men is expected.


I think it is possible that as women take on more and more dominant positions of power in society, we could start to see more violence from women. For example, there have already been some cases of sexual harassment perpetrated by women in a position of authority over a male subordinate but nobody wants to talk about it. And there are some men silently being attacked by their wives on a regular basis. My doctor recently told me about one of his male patients who has scratch scars all over his face from his wife.


I understand what folks are saying about the stigma of mental illness and not wanting the rest of us to be lumped together with violent offenders. I don't want that either. I live with depression myself. That said, I don't think we could call a 15 yr old boy mentally well right before he went to school one day, shot his peers, and then shot himself. Depression seems to be at the root of many of those school shootings (and easy access to guns).


There is something called psychotic depression. I am wondering if depressed boys are more at risk for it because they are socialized not to display or communicate their sadness, not to ask for help. To be clear, I am NOT saying that most depressed people would hurt someone else. Nor am I saying that a person living with psychotic depression would necessarily hurt someone. I personally knew one woman struggling with psychotic depression. She was not a danger to others; she was convinced that people were trying to poison her. I should also mention that with the right help she got better. Perhaps there was a man out there in the world with a similar condition who never told anyone, never got help, and went on to kill the people he was sure were trying to poison him?


There is evidence that when boys and men get depressed they often engage in externalizing behaviors whereas girls and women tend to internalize. The extreme for boys and men would be homicide. The extreme for girls and women would be suicide. These are trends of course, plenty of depressed men end their lives without a homicidal component. Is the trend genetic or is it because society normalizes girls who are sad and crying and boys who are angry and punch a wall (or someone else).


When someone commits a violent act, I believe we should be studying them and trying to figure out as much as possible about them so we can learn and grow and work on a safer society. When those individuals are deemed "evil monsters" and die by death sentence, I am not sure that helps the rest of us or future generations. Whether we like it or not, those people are human. And sometimes humans engage in heinous acts.


Serial killers. Mostly white men. Terrible abuse often in childhood though not always. Some were born as psychopaths; their brains simply aren't wired the way others are. Completely devoid of empathy. Though not all psychopaths are killers. Many are CEOs. Seriously.


An interesting study would be to compare female and male psychopaths. Is there any similarity in their aggression or violence compared with the rest of the population or are male psychopaths still much more likely to be violent than females?


Another interesting phenomenon I recently read about. Has anyone read about the history of adoption among many violent offenders? Including killers. To be clear, I am NOT saying that all adopted children grow up to be violent. Of course not. But there are some important statistics worth looking at. Some serial killers who targeted women had fantasized about meeting their biological mother and killing her...they never met her...they killed other women instead.


In short, there is much we do not know or understand about our own species. I think the answer is more objective analysis and remembering that humans are still humans regardless of what they have done...they didn't suddenly morph into a new species.



Question: given that most violent crime is committed by boys and men, shouldn't we be trying to help them rather than place all the focus for human rights and development on girls and women? Doesn't equality mean that everyone should get a fair shot in life? If some men are also being sexually harassed by women or beaten by their wives, don't we need to be able to discuss their side of it too? Some feminists would immediately shut me down for even saying that.

There is a need to address at a psychology level, I concur.

I don't have much to add. I'm at a bit of a numb point on some non homicidal but violent behavior from within a social circle at the moment.

[-jimi-]

Among ALL risk factors, gender is the absolutely biggest one. There is no way of getting out of that.

Both men and women commit acts of violence but I do think violent crime arrests/incarcerations show a larger # of men do.

What about the theory that in early society, powerful (and many times violent) men had numerous wives resulting in the gene population of men being a bit more violent? I faintly recall reading that Genghis Khan genes can be found in a large part of the world population and only men can pass down Y traits. Violence passed down through natural selection? Perhaps it will moderate over time since there aren't any modern day Genghis Khans?

And in regards to MH and natural selection--some of our mental health issues may simply be a case of characteristics that were once optimal aren't in modern society. My anxiety and jumpiness worked against me on the phone when I worked in a call center but that same jumpiness saved me from stepping on snakes growing up in a remote area. And it is my understanding that there is such a thing as a nonviolent psychopath. A nonviolent psychopath might really have an advantage in today's modern world....

[WishfulThinker66]

Please please please please get it folks. These are not the acts of bullied men. These are the acts of white nationalism. These are the acts of (usually men) bigots intensely set up with the idea that somehow their interpretation of the way life should be is under threat. These men are generally white, with a supreme idealogical viewpoint of the supremacy of maintaining the status quo of white Christian male domination and supremacy. They are racists. They are anti-immigrant. They are religiously intolerant. They are homophobic. They are anti-feminist. For God's sake stop calling these one-off events committed by delusional lunatics. Stop using bullying as an excuse. Call it what these are - acts of terrorism. And stand up against the American President's own racist Islamaphobic behaviour which has encouraged such disgusting viewpoints and can be directly linked to the rise in such thinking. He is responsible for making thinking this way acceptable. This is not acceptable. Remember, he called the marching far right-wing conservative white-supremists 'good people'. Don't accept this.

The Islamic Mosques in this province (Saskatchewan) and elsewhere across my country have opened their doors this week to the public. What a fabulous opportunity to meet your neighbours, stand in solidarity with them against hatred, and learn a little about your fellow brothers and sisters in this world. This is but one start to end domestic terrorism.

And to get back to the subject of mass shootings, though I support common sense gun control measures, remember, our country was only able to break away from England (who were insisting their soldiers be "guests" in our homes) because we had arms. Mass murderers are a serious threat but so were Nazis, the Khmer Rouge, Stalin, Mao, etc. We might like to think we are immune but whenever civil society totally disarms itself, you are risking these types of events on future generations....

Also, maybe people should be just as armed as the White Supremists. Mutually Assured Destruction has kept the US and Russia from many direct confrontations.

[nicoleflynn]

It has to do..with evil.

[eskielover]

It definitely has to do with evil.....but when you trace where & what these people have been involved in.....I think there is much more than will ever known about what is REALLY behind the mass shootings & the training or use of those who end up involved. Yes they are responsible & should be held responsible for their evil actions BUT I think if we knew the whole truth behind ALL terrorist training there would be a lot more that would be held responsible than JUST the person(s) doing the shootings.

My prior comments weren't specifically about shootings such as at the NZ mosques. I was thinking of violence in general and particularly why American boys are shooting their peers at school for example.

With regard to mass shootings such as the recent massacre in NZ, it is the result of tribalism in it's most extreme form. It all starts with an idea. Just one idea. "We are right and therefore good...they are wrong and therefore bad...so they must be punished." That one idea has been used to rationalize heinous acts all over the world for as long as there have been humans. Tribalism is not specific to one race, religion, class, or sex.

Question: what is the antidote to tribalism?

Perhaps folks will enjoy this article:

Biker gangs stand guard outside NZ mosques during first Friday prayer since massacre | London Evening Standard

[divine1966]

People are easily brainwashed and are very suspectable or to propaganda. Not all. But many many people are.

That’s how it works. If you repeatedly tell them that Muslims, Jews , immigrants, non whites, gays or any other minorities are endangering this country (or any country) and disrupt the status quo, they’ll eventually believe it and if you give them or allow them to have a gun, they’ll go and shoot.

That’s how propaganda works, that’s how genocides happen. That’s how mass extermination of Jews made possible. You tell people that Jews aren’t really humans so they could be squashed like ants, and many people eventually believe and rejoice in genocide.

Sure some people are bullied. Many believed that Nazism was justified and Hitler’s was in the right because people felt bullied by other nations so they had the right to attempt to take over the world.

Anything could be explained as an effect of something else including bullying.

Unfortunately too many people are gullible and not very knowledgeable of history, they tend to believe what they see and hear without much thought, hense history unfortunately tends to repeat itself

[WishfulThinker66]

Case in point - there is a huge rally planned in my province organised by the 'yellow vests'. These are not the same yellow vests that are protesting in Europe, these are self described white nationalist, climate change deniers, gun toting, religiously intolerant, supporters of the far-right wing in Canada. Many espouse violence against non-Christian immigrants and refugees.

The truly awful thing is that our provincial Premier is attending and giving them his support.

Scary

Awful

Embarrassing that these people exist in my province.

I am not religious, so I don't believe in the concept of evil. I rather believe we are all influenced by a combination of nature and nurture, though sometimes much more one than the other.

I don't believe a child is born a racist or terrorist. They are taught/influenced to be. Sadly misguided! Honestly, it's a shame for them. And many criminals without mental illness are brought up under terrible conditions, misguided themselves, perhaps desperate, often influenced by drugs.

So what about psychopaths that kill or torture for "pleasure"? Many psychiatrists do believe they have a mental disorder that made them think dysfunctionally. So, stigma against psychopaths (or say, pedophiles) is particularly harsh because their illnesses seem particularly scary.

"Did he/she choose to have antisocial personality disorder?" Or "Did he/she choose to be taught that killing infidels is good and will result in a better afterlife? That it's a good deed and not a bad one?"

I wrote a blog post sort of on this topic a while back. I did get some angry responses. A fellow person with bipolar disorder wrote that he "sort of agreed with my points, but in the case of pedophiles, he'd be the first one to pick up a gun and shoot them dead or torture them." Well, his strong feelings are indeed more common than rare. Though I absolutely agree that dangerous people must be kept from hurting others, I sort of feel that it's a double standard coming from a person with a mental disorder who claims to hate stigma. So, don't stigmatize people with a mental disorder who are not "as sick" as other people with a mental disorder? Might he be thinking he doesn't deserve to be stigmatized because he can work a full-time job while having bipolar disorder, but I do because I am on disability and a "leech on society", as my brother calls some people, though of course not his little sister.

Mass shootings are horrible tragedies, indeed, for all of the people who lost their lives and the people who loved/cared about them. There are surely plaques with the names of the murdered people on school walls and elsewhere, but those plaques don't include the killer who also may have died that day. It's understandable in this day and age, but those persons are also quite tragic figures.

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

I am not religious, so I don't believe in the concept of evil. I rather believe we are all influenced by a combination of nature and nurture, though sometimes much more one than the other.

I don't believe a child is born a racist or terrorist. They are taught/influenced to be. Sadly misguided! Honestly, it's a shame for them. And many criminals without mental illness are brought up under terrible conditions, misguided themselves, perhaps desperate, often influenced by drugs.

So what about psychopaths that kill or torture for "pleasure"? Many psychiatrists do believe they have a mental disorder that made them think dysfunctionally. So, stigma against psychopaths (or say, pedophiles) is particularly harsh because their illnesses seem particularly scary.

"Did he/she choose to have antisocial personality disorder?" Or "Did he/she choose to be taught that killing infidels is good and will result in a better afterlife? That it's a good deed and not a bad one?"

I wrote a blog post sort of on this topic a while back. I did get some angry responses. A fellow person with bipolar disorder wrote that he "sort of agreed with my points, but in the case of pedophiles, he'd be the first one to pick up a gun and shoot them dead or torture them." Well, his strong feelings are indeed more common than rare. Though I absolutely agree that dangerous people must be kept from hurting others, I sort of feel that it's a double standard coming from a person with a mental disorder who claims to hate stigma. So, don't stigmatize people with a mental disorder who are not "as sick" as other people with a mental disorder? Might he be thinking he doesn't deserve to be stigmatized because he can work a full-time job while having bipolar disorder, but I do because I am on disability and a "leech on society", as my brother calls some people, though of course not his little sister.

Mass shootings are horrible tragedies, indeed, for all of the people who lost their lives and the people who loved/cared about them. There are surely plaques with the names of the murdered people on school walls and elsewhere, but those plaques don't include the killer who also may have died that day. It's understandable in this day and age, but those persons are also quite tragic figures.

Hello Bird Dancer. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I found your post and viewpoint to be very enlightened and rare. We seem to think along similar lines regarding these topics. Not long ago, I watched a Ted Talk given by the mother of one of the Columbine shooters. I found her presentation to be deeply humbling and important. On that terrible day, she was also a mother who lost her child but many people would deny her any comfort or empathy because supposedly "she created a monster." I wonder if you have seen her Ted Talk?

Your points are very well made about selective resistance to stigma. I believe there is another poster on PC who pointed out that some folks living with depression are judgmental of people with "personality disorders" but in his/her view depression is another type of personality disorder. I found that to be a very interesting perspective. I live with chronic depression myself...I've been thinking a lot about that post since I read it.

I agree with you that for someone to live with pedophilia or a desire to hurt or kill others is a tragedy. That does not in any way condone their actions, as you already pointed out, but still remains tragic. I believe the research also indicates that not all pedophiles present in the same way. Some struggle with their feelings their whole lives and never act on them. Some commit criminal acts of which they are ashamed and some (after being caught) seem to take pleasure in those acts and continue to brag about them. My friend and I were talking about child-killers one day. My friend is a loving father of two young children. I asked if becoming a parent changed his thinking at all with regard to child-killers and society's responses to them. His response was profound: "Yes, my thinking has changed because instead of thinking child-killers should be killed by death penalty, now I sometimes wonder what I would do if one of my children grew up to be a child-killer. What would I say? What would I think?"

Sam Harris (neuroscientist) reminds people: "If you had the brain wiring of a serial killer, you'd be killing people too."

What I always come back to is, whether we are comfortable admitting it or not, we are all humans regardless of what we do or say. If someone commits a heinous act, they don't suddenly morph into a new species. And, like you, I do not believe in the concept of abstract "evil" or an evil baby or toddler. I do not support torture or the death penalty under any circumstances. When humans do terrible things, we need to figure out how to prevent them from repeating those acts while still remembering that they are in fact human.

I watched a documentary about solitary confinement..at a U.S. prison where the prisoners are confined to their cell every single day for 23 hours of 24 for many years...often indefinitely. This is not ordered by a judge. The system allows other prisons to send prisoners to that site where solitary confinement is the norm. Supposedly, solitary confinement is designed to make the prisoners safer. However, the reality is that when prisoners are confined to a small cell for 23 of 24 hours every day without interaction or stimuli...they become more and more mentally ill and often more aggressive...therefore they are less safe than before. I perceive it as a form of torture and believe the practice of solitary confinement should be illegal.

Tribalism is a very common and very dangerous human phenomenon. We are all prone to it and must continually monitor our biases. To say that some humans deserve peace and safety while others deserve to be tortured or to die via death sentence is another form of tribalism. "We are right and good, they are wrong and bad, therefore they must be punished." As I said in another post, that one idea has been used by humans all over the world for as long as there have been humans...to hurt, torture, or destroy other humans. When we turn our backs on living peacefully, (there is no peace to be found in torturing criminals) we could wind up on a road leading to the destruction of others. Nobody is "pure" or completely free from the biases of tribalism...we have to self-monitor and hopefully surround ourselves with others who self-monitor....in order to live in peace.

My son was a Columbine shooter. This is my story | Sue Klebold

YouTube

@SilverTrees , I will watch the TED talk you referenced. Thanks for sharing the link. I very much appreciated your posts and will think more about the issue of tribalism you brought up.

I am happy that this thread's topic, started by sarahsweets, has been discussed peacefully and thoughtfully. Thank you, sarahsweets, for bringing up these controversial yet significant topics.