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Default May 17, 2019 at 03:06 PM
  #1
It's not uncommon for me to come across people that give tough love to those they are trying to help.

I just want to know the communities thoughts on tough love. First of all, I wonder if such an approach is actually allowed here, since my intuition is that it's probably not considered supportive on here. More importantly though, does it work? Im sure there are many that think it has worked for them, many believe the opposite as well. What im curious about is, whether it might just work and actually be the best approach for different personalities, circumstances and such, or if the people that were recipients of this type of help just found value in it, but would have fared better with a different and objectively superior approach.

I wonder if there's been any studies on this.

Also, feel free to share your personal experience with this.

Lastly, this is not ment to be a personal attack on those who use this type of approach. As it is usually seems to be done with good intent. Im merely questioning the efficacy of the method itself.
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Default May 17, 2019 at 04:48 PM
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iloivar View Post
It's not uncommon for me to come across people that give tough love to those they are trying to help.

I just want to know the communities thoughts on tough love. First of all, I wonder if such an approach is actually allowed here, since my intuition is that it's probably not considered supportive on here. More importantly though, does it work? Im sure there are many that think it has worked for them, many believe the opposite as well. What im curious about is, whether it might just work and actually be the best approach for different personalities, circumstances and such, or if the people that were recipients of this type of help just found value in it, but would have fared better with a different and objectively superior approach.

I wonder if there's been any studies on this.

Also, feel free to share your personal experience with this.

Lastly, this is not ment to be a personal attack on those who use this type of approach. As it is usually seems to be done with good intent. Im merely questioning the efficacy of the method itself.
I think if you search the forums for this phrase, or "constructive criticism" you will see this topic has come up quite a few times.

I'm not sure I really understand what the definition of "tough love" really is, as I've heard it described in a variety of ways. But what I will say is that feedback that introduces an opposing viewpoint or a new perspective can be very helpful; however, it must be delivered with sensitivity and at the right time. I also think that many times people just think they are contributing to discussion, have no tough love or ill will intended at all, but due to the state of mind of the OP, a harsh response is given to the suspected "tough love."

I think we all just have to accept that sometimes, due to the nature of this public forum, we will hear things we don't want to hear. It's for us to discern what is useful or not useful, thank all for their time in responding, and move on. This is an exercise for many of us, myself included, in not reading into things. I know I have, in the past, read into things due to my fragile state of mind at the time. Looking back, I was kind of like, "what was I so upset about?" Now I try to just scroll past anything that starts to upset me, either read it later or just hit the thanks button and don't respond.

On the other hand, I have seen times where someone insists on being helpful and invades another's boundaries in their attempt to be helpful. I know I try to gauge whether the OP is wanting to hear suggestions in whatever vein that is, but I think sometimes I don't always consider the context of where they are at. I think it's helpful if we all consider context before responding.

I guess I'd need to understand what you mean by "tough love" to be more specific in my response. I think it's fine to offer a dissenting perspective or opposing perspective if it's done with sensitivity and kindness. I think often tough love, whatever it is, is done in a far too blunt manner, even rude and cruel.

So...I suppose that was entirely unhelpful.

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Default May 18, 2019 at 12:28 PM
  #3
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Originally Posted by seesaw View Post
I think if you search the forums for this phrase, or "constructive criticism" you will see this topic has come up quite a few times.

I'm not sure I really understand what the definition of "tough love" really is, as I've heard it described in a variety of ways. But what I will say is that feedback that introduces an opposing viewpoint or a new perspective can be very helpful; however, it must be delivered with sensitivity and at the right time. I also think that many times people just think they are contributing to discussion, have no tough love or ill will intended at all, but due to the state of mind of the OP, a harsh response is given to the suspected "tough love."

I think we all just have to accept that sometimes, due to the nature of this public forum, we will hear things we don't want to hear. It's for us to discern what is useful or not useful, thank all for their time in responding, and move on. This is an exercise for many of us, myself included, in not reading into things. I know I have, in the past, read into things due to my fragile state of mind at the time. Looking back, I was kind of like, "what was I so upset about?" Now I try to just scroll past anything that starts to upset me, either read it later or just hit the thanks button and don't respond.

On the other hand, I have seen times where someone insists on being helpful and invades another's boundaries in their attempt to be helpful. I know I try to gauge whether the OP is wanting to hear suggestions in whatever vein that is, but I think sometimes I don't always consider the context of where they are at. I think it's helpful if we all consider context before responding.

I guess I'd need to understand what you mean by "tough love" to be more specific in my response. I think it's fine to offer a dissenting perspective or opposing perspective if it's done with sensitivity and kindness. I think often tough love, whatever it is, is done in a far too blunt manner, even rude and cruel.

So...I suppose that was entirely unhelpful.
Straight out of wikipedia.

"The phrase tough love is believed to have originated with Bill Milliken's book of the same title[a] in 1968.[1][2][3][4][b] It is an expression used when someone treats another person harshly or sternly with the intent to help them in the long run.

Edit
Bill Milliken described tough love through the expression, "I don't care how this makes you feel toward me. You may hate my guts, but I love you, and I am doing this because I love you."[5][1]

Milliken strongly emphasizes that a relationship of care and love is a prerequisite of tough love, and that it requires that caregivers communicate clearly their love to the subject.[1] Maia Szalavitz believes, based on her own experience, that this may be difficult, since some people experiencing addiction consider themselves unworthy of love and find it difficult to believe others love them.[6][1]

In most uses, there must be some actual love or feeling of affection behind the harsh or stern treatment to be defined as tough love. For example, genuinely concerned parents refusing to support their drug-addicted child financially until he or she enters drug rehabilitation would be said to be practicing tough love.[7][8]

Tim Hawkes has described tough love as putting "principles before popularity" and allowing loved ones to learn through failure.["

So what you describe at the end is what is considered tough love, and is the target of my questions.
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Default May 18, 2019 at 12:33 PM
  #4
Then I dont believe tough love should be practiced in this setting. Tough love is something practiced by people who love the person and know them well. We do not. We're anonymous strangers. Many people come here who've been greatly abused and often treated very roughly.

As for me, keep your tough love to yourself.

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Default May 19, 2019 at 01:07 PM
  #5
Sometimes people who complain about tough love and criticism on PC (not you OP) on one subforum, post very harsh comments to other posters on different sub forums! Hard to believe it’s even the same person.

Personally. I believe if one reads posts that are too harsh or appear that way, it could be reported. Then moderators assess it. People could be also placed on ignore. There are features for it on PC. If unsure how to proceed one can ask a moderator
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Default May 19, 2019 at 01:22 PM
  #6
"For example, genuinely concerned parents refusing to support their drug-addicted child financially until he or she enters drug rehabilitation would be said to be practicing tough love"

In response to your question, Iliovar....the above example does not work in most cases based on the research. Rehab only works if someone wants to do it, chooses it, and feels supported rather than forced or coerced. There is a middle ground between enabling and coercing. Though when chemical dependence is involved, that middle ground is very challenging to find and establish. And there of course needs to be a different approach based on whether the parents are dealing with a 'minor' child or a much older legal adult.

There were clinics who used to apply a "tough love" approach to girls struggling with anorexia. The girls were sent to inpatient clinics where they were told they could not see or hear from their families again until they started eating again at regular intervals. I probably don't need to tell you the outcome. it did not "cure" their eating disorders but added to their trauma. Increasing a person's sense of alienation (via forcing them into rehab or to eat) does not actually help them to heal.

I don't know if there are still clinics who take that approach to eating disorders but I do know that was attempted at one stage. And we all know what used to happen to anyone with a mental health problem back in the day. I won't post that here....too cruel.

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Default May 19, 2019 at 01:29 PM
  #7
If you folks know Dr. Phil, he's a good example related to this topic. He throws out the "tough love" line but if you research him he has actually been involved in some very inappropriate situations. I think bully would be a more accurate term for him than therapist. Tony Robbins is another example. Some of the folks claiming to help are actually just profiting from other people's misery while harassing and exploiting them. I watched a video of Tony Robbins responding to a young man with suicidal ideation. He began by mocking the young man's shoes. Apparently that's a helpful approach to severe depression?? On another occasion, at one of his group events, Robbins was using his physical stature to intimidate a woman who disagreed with him. It was very disconcerting to watch. And yet, he and Dr. Phil are millionaires.

Props to DocJohn for developing a forum for vulnerable folks that does not require payment!!!

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Default May 19, 2019 at 01:31 PM
  #8
This is a really interesting topic Iliovar. Thanks for sharing.
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Default May 19, 2019 at 01:47 PM
  #9
For anyone interested, there is an excellent Ted Talk about how the "tough love" approach is not helpful for folks struggling with chem dep. I have shared it with someone I love who lives with alcoholism.

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Default May 20, 2019 at 01:57 AM
  #10
To me there is a difference between tough love and being direct or honest. Tough love implies that you have the wellbeing of the person you are dealing with and in order to help them you must make them feel pain, humiliation-withhold love and cut them with your words. Its like someone thinks its their job to say the "hard" stuff and by doing that you will force someone to "see the light" or change their behavior because you have been "brave" enough to tell it like it is or say what people are afraid to say. The people practicing tough love sometimes think too highly of themselves and their opinions and think struggling people just need to hear the hard truth and poof! Their lives will change. And I do not think that idea of tough love belongs here.
Now, that doesn't mean if someone asks for your honest opinion you have to hide what you think. You can say something with compassion and empathy when you are asked. No one says you have to say something with fake "niceness" just so you can drop a hurt bomb on them.
For example: if someone is in a relationship with someone who keeps cheating on them and they do not leave the relationship and they ask me what I think about it... "Saying " you are so stupid for staying. You are weak and you should know better than that" is not very constructive or helpful. Saying " that has to hurt alot- do you like that sort of treatment? Do you think that its ok that your partner is treating you this way" is an empathetic way of trying to say what you feel. (doing it that way is what works in a perfect world).

When you are a direct person this is a very tough area. I am direct and especially in the written word I can come off as a tough love supporter. I am in "theory" but I do not mean to hurt anyone or lack empathy. I try and apologize if I have forgotten my empathy or compassion and make it right. But I will not lie if I am asked about something and I will do my best to get clarification of whether someone wants support and validation or an opinion. Saying hard stuff is hard-because sometimes people do not want to hear what you think, sometimes they want validation. And that is where judgement comes into play. I do not always have the best judgement-and I feel bad when I do something that is harsh or insensitive. I have to remember that my opinion is just that-mine and it doesnt mean I am right and it doesnt mean that the world needs to hear it. Sometimes I need to be a listener.

Now as it pertains to drug addiction I also feel differently about it. My daughter ran away in high school a year ago and took up residence in some older girls' house and partied and made horrible hurtful choices. She was 18 and we had no legal recourse, we just had to watch the destruction and hope she made it. We figured out where she was in 48 hours. We went to that residence and took away the car she drove (it was ours) and we shut off her phone(we paid for it). She refused to contact us so we tried with the school and when that didn't work we had to let her be and got into family counseling to learn how to cope with the loss and deal with the circumstances. She came back eventually but if we had made it easy for her by letting her have her phone and car then we would have been condoning her choices. She would have had no motivation to change because why should she? She would have had freedom through transportation and be able to snapchat and text and use social media to do god knows what. We could not allow that to indicate our support. I do not know if that was tough love, maybe someone here can tell me if it was.

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Default May 20, 2019 at 04:24 AM
  #11
so you are saying only posts that are bubbly, and have rainbows and butterflies should be allowed here? isn't this a place with open forums so that everyone who is a member can respond? I don't respond all bubbly, and rainbowy. not my style...not in my life, not in my writing. i'll support you in the best way I know possible...you may not like the way I do it but that's the way I am.

if everyone here posts the exact same way with the exact same response then why even bother having open forums? what's the point? where is the discussion? if you are mature enough to join a site with open forums and then post, you should be aware that you will get a varied set of responses. some you will like , some not. just as in real life.

is the OP wanting to hear such things? who knows. really. some posts are so convoluted you have no idea what they really want to hear. they take so many turns that you can barely keep up. other times it seems that no response is the right one. if you are saying we should only guess what the poster wants to hear & then say that, then how exactly does that help? we are just pandering to them. conversations are usually 2 way streets sometimes with potholes.

I rarely sugar coat things...if you ask my opinion I am going to share it. if there is a problem I will do be best to come up with a solution. but if I think you are part of the problem I will let you know as well.

everyone here has some form of mental illness...it makes responding to posts somewhat of a challenge. people get triggered..sometimes for no apparent reason...sometimes just because you aren't rainbowy..and because of that you are blocked. sometimes because they themselves might not know what they want from their original post's direction and regardless of what is posted by everyone the post will never measure up. sometimes there no reasons at all. it just is.

to say no "tough love" would be permitted here is wrong..because who is anyone here to say what type of response is acceptable, and what type of response is appropriate. again, to have a blanket statement would negate the purpose of an open forum. also, everyone here is an individual that brings their own set of history, responses, etc to the table.

I don't do tough love..not my goal. I do me....and I posted about this a few weeks ago....and actually I got bullied about it. how dare I not be "nice"..and people suggested I read posts to "learn" how to respond, learn how to be supportive, it got ugly fast. some folks said that "geez I wasn't so bad and did have some sort of good stuff inside me after they had read my posts" well I feel so much better after your validation. college educated, lots of friends, done well in life....pretty good at being nice, but when it comes to problem solving I take a different approach other then rainbows, and balloons. my career required me to problem solve..take the issue, break it down & then assemble it. solve the problem. that is how I look at things. don't need a lesson in nice, or reading others posts. thank you.

be careful of what you wish for...a space where everyone thinks & speaks the same mantra while it may feel safe isn't always. diversity should always be welcome..a little pain due to exposure helps you grow.
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Default May 20, 2019 at 07:18 AM
  #12
I thought the term ‘’tough love” meant something like not enabling an addict by making it easy for them to hurt themselves. For example; stopping financial support from the parent to the child when the child is using the money to hurt themselves with substance. Thank you for posting the definition which confirmed my thoughts.

I’ve had people close to me telling me they were ‘only giving me tough love’ when they were just being abusive. They were verbally assaulting me because they were trying to control me to do what they wanted me to do. It wasn’t a matter of I was making choices that were hurting my very existence. I just was not choosing to do as they wanted me to do. I have also been cut off financially for the very same reason. It was tough love! What a joke!

As you can see, I find the very term triggering.

I have consciously never punished someone and had the nerve to call it tough love. I may have told someone off. I never lied by saying it’s because I love them. It was because I was hurt by them and very angry. Let’s just call it what it is.

Oh, wait, and let’s not forget... giving me the silent treatment for any slight and calling it ‘tough love’! (Bangs head in wall...)

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Default May 20, 2019 at 07:22 AM
  #13
Since you didn't quote anyone, I assume some of your questions are directed at me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by resurgam View Post
so you are saying only posts that are bubbly, and have rainbows and butterflies should be allowed here? isn't this a place with open forums so that everyone who is a member can respond? I don't respond all bubbly, and rainbowy. not my style...not in my life, not in my writing. i'll support you in the best way I know possible...you may not like the way I do it but that's the way I am.
I never said that. But interested in what you consider a bubbly and rainbows response. Imo,
sensitivity and honesty in a post are not mutually exclusive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by resurgam View Post
f everyone here posts the exact same way with the exact same response then why even bother having open forums? what's the point? where is the discussion? if you are mature enough to join a site with open forums and then post, you should be aware that you will get a varied set of responses. some you will like , some not. just as in real life.
Even if people post in the same manner, each person will have different insights, and ways of helping. Yet people here don't really post in the same manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by resurgam View Post

is the OP wanting to hear such things? who knows. really. some posts are so convoluted you have no idea what they really want to hear. they take so many turns that you can barely keep up. other times it seems that no response is the right one. if you are saying we should only guess what the poster wants to hear & then say that, then how exactly does that help? we are just pandering to them. conversations are usually 2 way streets sometimes with potholes.
My OP was intended to stir discussion. Im not looking for a "type" of response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by resurgam View Post

I rarely sugar coat things...if you ask my opinion I am going to share it. if there is a problem I will do be best to come up with a solution. but if I think you are part of the problem I will let you know as well.

everyone here has some form of mental illness...it makes responding to posts somewhat of a challenge. people get triggered..sometimes for no apparent reason...sometimes just because you aren't rainbowy..and because of that you are blocked. sometimes because they themselves might not know what they want from their original post's direction and regardless of what is posted by everyone the post will never measure up. sometimes there no reasons at all. it just is.

to say no "tough love" would be permitted here is wrong..because who is anyone here to say what type of response is acceptable, and what type of response is appropriate. again, to have a blanket statement would negate the purpose of an open forum. also, everyone here is an individual that brings their own set of history, responses, etc to the table.

I don't do tough love..not my goal. I do me....and I posted about this a few weeks ago....and actually I got bullied about it. how dare I not be "nice"..and people suggested I read posts to "learn" how to respond, learn how to be supportive, it got ugly fast. some folks said that "geez I wasn't so bad and did have some sort of good stuff inside me after they had read my posts" well I feel so much better after your validation. college educated, lots of friends, done well in life....pretty good at being nice, but when it comes to problem solving I take a different approach other then rainbows, and balloons. my career required me to problem solve..take the issue, break it down & then assemble it. solve the problem. that is how I look at things. don't need a lesson in nice, or reading others posts. thank you.

be careful of what you wish for...a space where everyone thinks & speaks the same mantra while it may feel safe isn't always. diversity should always be welcome..a little pain due to exposure helps you grow.

Last edited by Iloivar; May 20, 2019 at 10:54 AM..
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Default May 20, 2019 at 11:19 AM
  #14
'I wonder if such an approach is actually allowed here, since my intuition is that it's probably not considered supportive on here. "

rainbows & butterflies...that what I consider when all the poster gets are responses for the post ..they asked a question and then they get balloons and puppies. nice but do they offer a solution? if I can offer a solution (in my eyes) as a response why should that not be acceptable? because it isn't perky?

you stated your post was intended to stir discussion, well I am discussing, as intended. I don't understand what "type" of response you are or are not searching for. if the initial post questioned the presence of "tough love" on the forums and I responded explaining my take on the issue the, again what are you searching for?
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Default May 20, 2019 at 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by resurgam View Post
'I wonder if such an approach is actually allowed here, since my intuition is that it's probably not considered supportive on here. "

rainbows & butterflies...that what I consider when all the poster gets are responses for the post ..they asked a question and then they get balloons and puppies. nice but do they offer a solution? if I can offer a solution (in my eyes) as a response why should that not be acceptable? because it isn't perky?

you stated your post was intended to stir discussion, well I am discussing, as intended. I don't understand what "type" of response you are or are not searching for. if the initial post questioned the presence of "tough love" on the forums and I responded explaining my take on the issue the, again what are you searching for?
Don't see how that's rainbows and butterflies. It was indeed my intuition, based on the "constructive criticism" threads that began, and Docjohns response to them.

I don't really see anything wrong with a poster responding to the questions asked by the op. Not that it's also wrong to not just answer the questions and add insight or opinions relating to the post. At least in a non emotional thread like this.

Yes, you are indeed. That was in response to " some posts are so convoluted you have no idea what they really want to hear"

even if I come from a place of skepticism, that doesn't mean I don't want to hear posts that shut down my inquiries, or present evidence or their own experiences which validate the notion of tough love. Whether posts like or dislike it doesn't matter. It's all about the discussion, sharing of opinions, facts, experiences, etc. Im merely searching for contributions in whatever form they come.
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Default May 20, 2019 at 12:05 PM
  #16
got it. didn't mean your response...right there..just what I've read...thank you for reading my responses & validating them. I appreciate that...others have not been so forthcoming . and just for the record I love puppies and rainbows. :-)
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Default May 20, 2019 at 12:38 PM
  #17
Hi Iliovar, I don't know if you find this relevant to your post but it popped into my mind. Fixing versus empathizing. A person could certainly empathize with someone while offering ideas to help. No problem. But what happens when the focus of solutions is not offering ideas but endeavoring to "fix" or "correct" the person with the problem? Then the issue of boundaries arises. I think that may be related to your "tough love" exploration. If I have a few ideas for someone and they don't agree or don't accept my ideas, there's no need for any sort of "toughness" because I am not determined to "fix" them and so I leave them to it and go on with my life. However, if I decide that my role is to "fix" and "correct" the other person, my efforts may quickly devolve into the need to be "right" and telling the other person that they are "wrong." I believe that empathy tends to go out the window when fixing and correcting take over. And if we don't have empathy when helping others, what do we have? I've had both experiences in the mental health system....empathy with guidance and fixing with judgment/shaming. Can you guess which approach I kept going back to for more help?

Here's an example related to depression since that is something I live with myself. And two different ways of responding to a friend who is struggling and confiding to a friend who is not a mental health professional.

(Fixing and correcting approach)
Friend: My depression has been particularly unpleasant lately. I have suicidal thoughts. Nothing I would act on but the thoughts are uncomfortable.
Me: If you have suicidal thoughts you HAVE to go to the emergency room immediately. Right now!
Friend: But I don't want to go to the hospital. I'm not going to end my life. I just want to share how uncomfortable these thoughts are.
Me: I can't believe you are not on your way to the hospital!!! What are you thinking???!!! My sister's neighbor ended his life three years ago. That will happen to you if you don't go right now!!!
Friend: I'm not going to do that and I also don't want to speak with you about this anymore. I wish I hadn't brought it up.
Me: Well then you shouldn't have brought it up if you didn't want to hear my advice. I'm right. I know it. You should be at the ER right now. It surprises me that you value your life so lowly that you don't even care enough to get help.

Or

(Offering ideas while empathizing)
Friend: My depression has been particularly unpleasant lately. I have suicidal thoughts. Nothing I would act on but the thoughts are uncomfortable.
Me: It is understandable that the thoughts would be uncomfortable and unpleasant for you. I am sorry you're experiencing that. Have you talked to anyone else about these thoughts?
Friend: I feel ashamed to tell anyone else. People might think I'm crazy. I took a risk by telling you.
Me: Thank you for sharing with me. I don't think you are crazy but I also understand your desire to protect yourself. Depression seems to be very common and suicidal thoughts can go along with that at times. I wonder how you would feel about one of the depression call lines. You could keep your anonymity while also sharing your discomfort about the thoughts with someone trained to respond appropriately. You know I'm not a doctor so I'm just troubleshooting here.
Friend: I haven't tried one of those call lines. I don't think I want to do that right now but maybe at some point I'll want to. Honestly, it helps to have been able to tell you about this.
Me: No problem. I know depression is not new to you. Do you get any help from a doctor?
Friend: I'm not a big fan of doctors but I did find one who was nice last time I mentioned feeling really down.
Me: Maybe you could have another appointment with that doc? For some new ideas and support?
Friend: I might do that. I need to think about it for a while.
Me: No problem. Keep me posted if you feel like it. I care and want you to feel better. You deserve to feel better.
Friend: Thank you. I'm glad we talked.

Would the first approach be considered tough love?
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Default May 20, 2019 at 01:09 PM
  #18
I think pain assessment and management is another good example in this area. I've heard some doctors telling patients "You cannot possibly be in the level of physical pain you report." Would that be considered tough love?

Another doctor might say: "Sorry you are still in so much pain! That sounds miserable. Let's talk about how the pain affects your activities of daily living. What we tried before doesn't seem to be working for you. Let's talk about some other options."
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Default May 20, 2019 at 01:22 PM
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
To me there is a difference between tough love and being direct or honest. Tough love implies that you have the wellbeing of the person you are dealing with and in order to help them you must make them feel pain, humiliation-withhold love and cut them with your words. Its like someone thinks its their job to say the "hard" stuff and by doing that you will force someone to "see the light" or change their behavior because you have been "brave" enough to tell it like it is or say what people are afraid to say. The people practicing tough love sometimes think too highly of themselves and their opinions and think struggling people just need to hear the hard truth and poof! Their lives will change. And I do not think that idea of tough love belongs here.
Now, that doesn't mean if someone asks for your honest opinion you have to hide what you think. You can say something with compassion and empathy when you are asked. No one says you have to say something with fake "niceness" just so you can drop a hurt bomb on them.
For example: if someone is in a relationship with someone who keeps cheating on them and they do not leave the relationship and they ask me what I think about it... "Saying " you are so stupid for staying. You are weak and you should know better than that" is not very constructive or helpful. Saying " that has to hurt alot- do you like that sort of treatment? Do you think that its ok that your partner is treating you this way" is an empathetic way of trying to say what you feel. (doing it that way is what works in a perfect world).

When you are a direct person this is a very tough area. I am direct and especially in the written word I can come off as a tough love supporter. I am in "theory" but I do not mean to hurt anyone or lack empathy. I try and apologize if I have forgotten my empathy or compassion and make it right. But I will not lie if I am asked about something and I will do my best to get clarification of whether someone wants support and validation or an opinion. Saying hard stuff is hard-because sometimes people do not want to hear what you think, sometimes they want validation. And that is where judgement comes into play. I do not always have the best judgement-and I feel bad when I do something that is harsh or insensitive. I have to remember that my opinion is just that-mine and it doesnt mean I am right and it doesnt mean that the world needs to hear it. Sometimes I need to be a listener.

Now as it pertains to drug addiction I also feel differently about it. My daughter ran away in high school a year ago and took up residence in some older girls' house and partied and made horrible hurtful choices. She was 18 and we had no legal recourse, we just had to watch the destruction and hope she made it. We figured out where she was in 48 hours. We went to that residence and took away the car she drove (it was ours) and we shut off her phone(we paid for it). She refused to contact us so we tried with the school and when that didn't work we had to let her be and got into family counseling to learn how to cope with the loss and deal with the circumstances. She came back eventually but if we had made it easy for her by letting her have her phone and car then we would have been condoning her choices. She would have had no motivation to change because why should she? She would have had freedom through transportation and be able to snapchat and text and use social media to do god knows what. We could not allow that to indicate our support. I do not know if that was tough love, maybe someone here can tell me if it was.
I very much agree that being honest and direct is important. I'm not going to tell lies or say I think something I don't just to pacify someone. But I think being honest, and having a dissenting opinion, is not the same as "tough love." I think there are two different things being discussed there. Tough love is not the same as simply stating a different perspective or viewpoint. Tough love, as described by the OP, sounds like being harsh to the purpose of making someone behave as you want them to.

I also don't find you to be harsh or giving "tough love." I just find you honest and open with your thoughts. And sometimes that's a different viewpoint than the OP. But just because we disagree does not mean it's harsh. It's all about delivery. And we all can mess up on delivery from time to time.

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Primary Dx: C-PTSD and Severe Chronic Treatment Resistant Major Depressive Disorder
Secondary Dx: Generalized Anxiety Disorder with mild Agoraphobia.

Meds I've tried: Prozac, Zoloft, Celexa, Effexor, Remeron, Elavil, Wellbutrin, Risperidone, Abilify, Prazosin, Paxil, Trazadone, Tramadol, Topomax, Xanax, Propranolol, Valium, Visteril, Vraylar, Selinor, Clonopin, Ambien

Treatments I've done: CBT, DBT, Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), Talk therapy, psychotherapy, exercise, diet, sleeping more, sleeping less...
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Default May 20, 2019 at 02:03 PM
  #20
I found this psych study really fascinating. Also on the tough love theme.

Researchers compared professor responses to college students who had an event during the semester (such as illness or a surgery). The college student is requesting flexibility with an exam date or deadline for a paper. The researchers assumed that professors who had personally experienced something similar during their college years were more likely to offer the flexibility and support than the professors who had no such experience. They found the OPPOSITE to be true!!! Professors who'd never had such an event were more likely to reason: "That sounds really stressful, sure, take the exam when you are feeling better" whereas professors who had been ill during their college years were more likely to reason: "Nobody did me any favors when I went through that....I had to tough it out so why should I give my student special treatment? No, I'm not offering a new exam date, you can take it that date or lose a % of your final grade."

Fascinating, right?!

Some of the most judgmental comments I've heard (offline) about people living with chem dep were from people already in recovery. Some depressed people judge me for not taking medication. Some depressed people judge others for not doing therapy.

Humans, we are a mucky bunch aren't we?

Last edited by atisketatasket; Jun 01, 2019 at 11:02 AM.. Reason: Guidelines
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