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Default May 20, 2019 at 02:49 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by SilverTrees View Post
I found this psych study really fascinating. Also on the tough love theme.

Researchers compared professor responses to college students who had an event during the semester (such as illness or a surgery). The college student is requesting flexibility with an exam date or deadline for a paper. The researchers assumed that professors who had personally experienced something similar during their college years were more likely to offer the flexibility and support than the professors who had no such experience. They found the OPPOSITE to be true!!! Professors who'd never had such an event were more likely to reason: "That sounds really stressful, sure, take the exam when you are feeling better" whereas professors who had been ill during their college years were more likely to reason: "Nobody did me any favors when I went through that....I had to tough it out so why should I give my student special treatment? No, I'm not offering a new exam date, you can take it that date or lose a % of your final grade."

Fascinating, right?!

Some of the most outspoken "pro-life" speakers were later discovered to have had abortions in their past which they kept a secret. Some of the most judgmental comments I've heard (offline) about people living with chem dep were from people already in recovery. Some depressives judge me for not taking medication. Some depressives judge others for not doing therapy.

Humans, we are a mucky bunch aren't we?
I have found this to be true, and not surprised by the outcomes. My stepmother hates all welfare programs because "no one helped her" when she was struggling as a single mother in the 80s. I have often thought, well no one made it easier for me, and then my thought is, but I want others to have it better than me, not worse.

Again, I think tough love gets confused with dissenting perspective. Tough love literally sounds like a person who is in a real relationship with the person receiving the "love" enforcing their personal boundaries. Like Sarahsweets said, enforcing financial boundaries with a child. So maybe it's the fact that this euphemism has been appropriated for abusive behavior, and we should call the behavior exactly what it is: are you enforcing a boundary? Are you expressing a differing perspective? Or are you forcing your thoughts and opinions down someone else's throat? Or are you being overly judgmental? I think if we're really specific to what the behavior was and how it made us feel, we can more clearly talk about it and also address it with each other.

Also, I'd like to encourage you to use person-first language. Don't mean to derail the thread, but I am a person with major depressive disorder, not a depressive. It's not a personality trait; it's a condition. Thanks.

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Default May 20, 2019 at 03:06 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by seesaw View Post
I have found this to be true, and not surprised by the outcomes. My stepmother hates all welfare programs because "no one helped her" when she was struggling as a single mother in the 80s. I have often thought, well no one made it easier for me, and then my thought is, but I want others to have it better than me, not worse.

Again, I think tough love gets confused with dissenting perspective. Tough love literally sounds like a person who is in a real relationship with the person receiving the "love" enforcing their personal boundaries. Like Sarahsweets said, enforcing financial boundaries with a child. So maybe it's the fact that this euphemism has been appropriated for abusive behavior, and we should call the behavior exactly what it is: are you enforcing a boundary? Are you expressing a differing perspective? Or are you forcing your thoughts and opinions down someone else's throat? Or are you being overly judgmental? I think if we're really specific to what the behavior was and how it made us feel, we can more clearly talk about it and also address it with each other.

Also, I'd like to encourage you to use person-first language. Don't mean to derail the thread, but I am a person with major depressive disorder, not a depressive. It's not a personality trait; it's a condition. Thanks.
Thank you for the post Seesaw. Yes, I think 12 people could probably come up with 12 different definitions of tough love and their own examples. That's why the exploration is so interesting per Iliovar's thread here.

With regard to person first language, I think this was addressed by DocJohn in the guidelines and a recent thread. I did not couple "depressive" with a pejorative therefore I have not violated the guidelines here. I felt comfortable using that term because I live with depression myself. I don't find the term offensive. There are times when people use the shortest version of a phrase or word in order to be efficient with language and communication. Depressive is faster and more efficient than "people living with major depressive disorder." Sometimes a sentence can get unwieldly with long titles and the idea gets buried under the phrasing.

I did not say that depression is a personality trait. I am well aware that all sorts of different people can present with depression from various walks of life. They are unique individuals. Remember that I live with it myself (lifelong) so I don't need to be educated on what it is.

If you feel very strongly about person-first language, even though it was already addressed by DocJohn on the recent thread, perhaps you'd like to discuss again with him? I believe I am within community guidelines and I also think that we need to respect that different people with the same illness are allowed to have different feelings about the language around it. The moderators can certainly correct me if I am wrong about the guidelines.

As a middle ground, I will refrain from referring to you directly as a 'depressive' Seesaw. Wishing you peace and a good day.

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Default May 20, 2019 at 03:20 PM
  #23
Iliovar, as OP, is it okay to ask about your perception or personal experiences of "tough love" either related to mental health or some other problem? Did you find it helpful or problematic? Would you care to elaborate?
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Default May 20, 2019 at 05:28 PM
  #24
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Thank you for the post Seesaw. Yes, I think 12 people could probably come up with 12 different definitions of tough love and their own examples. That's why the exploration is so interesting per Iliovar's thread here.

With regard to person first language, I think this was addressed by DocJohn in the guidelines and a recent thread. I did not couple "depressive" with a pejorative therefore I have not violated the guidelines here. I felt comfortable using that term because I live with depression myself. I don't find the term offensive. There are times when people use the shortest version of a phrase or word in order to be efficient with language and communication. Depressive is faster and more efficient than "people living with major depressive disorder." Sometimes a sentence can get unwieldly with long titles and the idea gets buried under the phrasing.

I did not say that depression is a personality trait. I am well aware that all sorts of different people can present with depression from various walks of life. They are unique individuals. Remember that I live with it myself (lifelong) so I don't need to be educated on what it is.

If you feel very strongly about person-first language, even though it was already addressed by DocJohn on the recent thread, perhaps you'd like to discuss again with him? I believe I am within community guidelines and I also think that we need to respect that different people with the same illness are allowed to have different feelings about the language around it. The moderators can certainly correct me if I am wrong about the guidelines.

As a middle ground, I will refrain from referring to you directly as a 'depressive' Seesaw. Wishing you peace and a good day.
I wasn't suggesting that you were breaking community guidelines; I didn't say anything of the kind. I was, as I said in my message, encouraging you to state it in another way. You did refer to "some depressives", and I find referring to the group of people who suffer from depression as "depressives" offensive, so it wasn't just you that you referred to. You are free to state it as you want to, and I'm free to mention that I dislike that term in reference to those of us that have this condition as a group.

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Default May 25, 2019 at 09:24 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by SilverTrees View Post
Hi Iliovar, I don't know if you find this relevant to your post but it popped into my mind. Fixing versus empathizing. A person could certainly empathize with someone while offering ideas to help. No problem. But what happens when the focus of solutions is not offering ideas but endeavoring to "fix" or "correct" the person with the problem? Then the issue of boundaries arises. I think that may be related to your "tough love" exploration. If I have a few ideas for someone and they don't agree or don't accept my ideas, there's no need for any sort of "toughness" because I am not determined to "fix" them and so I leave them to it and go on with my life. However, if I decide that my role is to "fix" and "correct" the other person, my efforts may quickly devolve into the need to be "right" and telling the other person that they are "wrong." I believe that empathy tends to go out the window when fixing and correcting take over. And if we don't have empathy when helping others, what do we have? I've had both experiences in the mental health system....empathy with guidance and fixing with judgment/shaming. Can you guess which approach I kept going back to for more help?

Here's an example related to depression since that is something I live with myself. And two different ways of responding to a friend who is struggling and confiding to a friend who is not a mental health professional.

(Fixing and correcting approach)
Friend: My depression has been particularly unpleasant lately. I have suicidal thoughts. Nothing I would act on but the thoughts are uncomfortable.
Me: If you have suicidal thoughts you HAVE to go to the emergency room immediately. Right now!
Friend: But I don't want to go to the hospital. I'm not going to end my life. I just want to share how uncomfortable these thoughts are.
Me: I can't believe you are not on your way to the hospital!!! What are you thinking???!!! My sister's neighbor ended his life three years ago. That will happen to you if you don't go right now!!!
Friend: I'm not going to do that and I also don't want to speak with you about this anymore. I wish I hadn't brought it up.
Me: Well then you shouldn't have brought it up if you didn't want to hear my advice. I'm right. I know it. You should be at the ER right now. It surprises me that you value your life so lowly that you don't even care enough to get help.

Or

(Offering ideas while empathizing)
Friend: My depression has been particularly unpleasant lately. I have suicidal thoughts. Nothing I would act on but the thoughts are uncomfortable.
Me: It is understandable that the thoughts would be uncomfortable and unpleasant for you. I am sorry you're experiencing that. Have you talked to anyone else about these thoughts?
Friend: I feel ashamed to tell anyone else. People might think I'm crazy. I took a risk by telling you.
Me: Thank you for sharing with me. I don't think you are crazy but I also understand your desire to protect yourself. Depression seems to be very common and suicidal thoughts can go along with that at times. I wonder how you would feel about one of the depression call lines. You could keep your anonymity while also sharing your discomfort about the thoughts with someone trained to respond appropriately. You know I'm not a doctor so I'm just troubleshooting here.
Friend: I haven't tried one of those call lines. I don't think I want to do that right now but maybe at some point I'll want to. Honestly, it helps to have been able to tell you about this.
Me: No problem. I know depression is not new to you. Do you get any help from a doctor?
Friend: I'm not a big fan of doctors but I did find one who was nice last time I mentioned feeling really down.
Me: Maybe you could have another appointment with that doc? For some new ideas and support?
Friend: I might do that. I need to think about it for a while.
Me: No problem. Keep me posted if you feel like it. I care and want you to feel better. You deserve to feel better.
Friend: Thank you. I'm glad we talked.

Would the first approach be considered tough love?
I suppose so, albeit an overexaggerated version of it.

I think it's accurate that givers of tough love intend to fix and correct. But is this necessarily a bad approach? And can it be a better approach than empathy? Three main variables to consider imo when giving tough love, the recipients disposition and their state of mind, good intent that's evident through what you say and/or your history, the quality of advice given.

While the first is difficult to do, especially on an online forum, it can be done.

You can look at how users have responded to some approaches of advice given in their threads. I've seen some receptive and even thankful of such advice in their threads. Admittedly I haven't seen anyone respond negatively to an empathetic approach. Yet this site is geared towards a particular way to respond and consider things (ideally, at least) if you go through some threads in which docjohn has responded to. This is not necessarily a critique, as it does strive towards more empathy. But it does limit the "types" of responses to the point that tough love is considered unsupportive. Anyways, to the point.

The best aspects of empathy imo is that it's non judemental, doesn't necessarily take sides, and acknowledges the persons pain and humanity. But perhaps a time comes when judgement is needed. Like when someone is doing something at the expense of others or lacks self awareness, to which tough love could be useful.

The advice has to be right. If you make an incorrect observation or insight, you appear presumptuous. However, there's the possibility that what you say is "correct" and gives the right kick to make the recipient contemplate what's said, and even realize it's right. Even though what was said might hurt initially.

That's not something empathy typically does.

Sisabel and sarahswerts mention that tough love is being conflated with a dissenting perspective or direct and honest feedback. But I would say that a dissenting perspective can be tough love because it can go against the recipients feelings and actions, and doing either has the potential to momentarily cause some emotional hurt.

It's simply to a smaller degree than the more extreme cases you provided in previous posts.

Here's some more comments on tough love if you want

What is your stance on " Tough Love" and it'''s effectiveness? : AskMen

Should also note to all incoming users, feel free to inject your own tough love into the thread idea and my opinions.
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Default May 31, 2019 at 07:36 PM
  #26
I don’t believe tough love exists....


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Default Jun 01, 2019 at 08:04 AM
  #27
Yeah it’s not as straight forward as it seems.

Some people make the most vile comments about others but it all covered by fake syrupy rainbows and unicorns. I personally usually see right through that. Sometimes people don’t see it and could tricked by fake “niceness”.

It really takes awhile to get to know the person like that. I know someone who starts and end every phrase with “G-d bless you and may G-ds blessing come upon you and may G-da goodness make your life a bliss etc etc” pretty much utter cliche nonsense. In reality she causes ton of suffering to people and eventually people get to know her and stir away.

She recently contacted someone who is estranged from her to tell her that family and friends all abandoned her and only strangers are willing to associate with her. All of us knew right away it’s because strangers buy fake “bless/shmess and and etc” bit as soon as they know her they stir away.

Sometimes tough love might be better than fake nonsense. At least tough live implies “love” while “fake ness” implies nothing but fake ness. Sure fake people suffer from something that causes them to be this way but it’s their responsibility to seek help. It’s not other people’s responsibility to figure them out. So yeah tough live versus fake support, hard to tell what’s what and which one is worse.

So for me it all boils to sincerity. How sincere are people in their words and actions and it takes awhile (or good insight) to get to know people where they coming from with their support and if it’s sincere etc
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Default Jun 01, 2019 at 11:57 AM
  #28
I have had “experiences” with people very similar to what you’re describing here.

Fake “niceness” indeed can be “worse” than “tough love” .... imo....

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Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
Yeah it’s not as straight forward as it seems.

Some people make the most vile comments about others but it all covered by fake syrupy rainbows and unicorns. I personally usually see right through that. Sometimes people don’t see it and could tricked by fake “niceness”.

It really takes awhile to get to know the person like that. I know someone who starts and end every phrase with “G-d bless you and may G-ds blessing come upon you and may G-da goodness make your life a bliss etc etc” pretty much utter cliche nonsense. In reality she causes ton of suffering to people and eventually people get to know her and stir away.

She recently contacted someone who is estranged from her to tell her that family and friends all abandoned her and only strangers are willing to associate with her. All of us knew right away it’s because strangers buy fake “bless/shmess and and etc” bit as soon as they know her they stir away.

Sometimes tough love might be better than fake nonsense. At least tough live implies “love” while “fake ness” implies nothing but fake ness. Sure fake people suffer from something that causes them to be this way but it’s their responsibility to seek help. It’s not other people’s responsibility to figure them out. So yeah tough live versus fake support, hard to tell what’s what and which one is worse.

So for me it all boils to sincerity. How sincere are people in their words and actions and it takes awhile (or good insight) to get to know people where they coming from with their support and if it’s sincere etc

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Default Jul 18, 2019 at 07:45 PM
  #29
I would say my father is a good example of tough love, especially regarding things that I tried hard to get his approval in when I was younger. I really remember the times where I would work all day to clean room and organize but if the tops of my dressers were still unorganized at the end of the day I remember him always saying "wow good job but you still need to do something about this" and he never just said good job. This has left me feeling like I'll never be good enough because trying my best wasn't good enough for him. And I still always feel like I have to prove to him that my decisions were valid because of this or that. So in this case I would believe tough love wasn't helpful for someone that already had motivational issues.
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Default Jul 19, 2019 at 12:34 AM
  #30
There is no such thing as tough love. Tough and love cannot be used in the same sentence. You cannot hurt someone and tell them you did that out of love. My father has always said he criticized me, hit me, and yelled at me only because he "loved me" and for my own sake. To succeed in life. He created a fragile and immature person instead with social anxiety and depression issues, and now as grown up as a failure in every aspect of life. I believe that only love and respect can make people change and make them better. Punishing people in the of hope they become better is an illusion. But it's easier than being patient and loving unconditionally. I identify as an atheist/agnostic now, but St. Paul verses on love are things to recall.
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Default Jul 19, 2019 at 03:45 AM
  #31
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Tough and love cannot be used in the same sentence.
Agree.

Also I think people that don't really know eachother well need to be extra careful. People usually go by what they can do and think it is the same for everyone else.

I remember when I was at my worst, and online people really helped, basically they helped me tread water until I could find a doctor to help me. It took ages. Once in a while some asshat showed up and told me that I just chose to feel bad and they had chosen to feel good so if they can, everyone else can. That was really discouraging.

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Default Jul 19, 2019 at 12:01 PM
  #32
Of course it is OK to warn a person not to do something that could be harmful. As long as it is cuz you really want to give this advice, and not because you want to shut someone up.

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Default Jul 19, 2019 at 02:14 PM
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Agree.

Also I think people that don't really know eachother well need to be extra careful. People usually go by what they can do and think it is the same for everyone else.

I remember when I was at my worst, and online people really helped, basically they helped me tread water until I could find a doctor to help me. It took ages. Once in a while some asshat showed up and told me that I just chose to feel bad and they had chosen to feel good so if they can, everyone else can. That was really discouraging.
Some people think mentally-ill people who seek validation and support are playing victims and lazy, and their support is feeding this "victim mentality". These people probably have never suffered from any mental illness or forgot how it is like , and they don't know how crippling it can be (anymore).
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Default Jul 19, 2019 at 02:42 PM
  #34
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Some people think mentally-ill people who seek validation and support are playing victims and lazy, and their support is feeding this "victim mentality". These people probably have never suffered from any mental illness or forgot how it is like , and they don't know how crippling it can be (anymore).
Yea. My counselor was like that because when she went to school way back they learned that depression is a made up thing not a real illness that we create so we can get people to cater to us. She told me only schizophrenics and bipolar people have real mental illness.

Fact is I never really wanted to waste people's time, but I survived because people encouraged me to.

My counselor thought if I was kicked off welfare and had to work full time, I would snap out of it. She yelled at me because she said my BFF enabled me in my bad habits by giving me food so I wouldn't starve.

Since then I understand that I really don't understand much about what other people go through... but I try not to think they aren't trying enough...

Of course sometimes I don't have patience, which is basically no one's fault, and sometimes I say the wrong things, but at least I'm not saying my ignorance is knowledge.

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Default Jul 19, 2019 at 03:26 PM
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Some people think mentally-ill people who seek validation and support are playing victims and lazy, and their support is feeding this "victim mentality". These people probably have never suffered from any mental illness or forgot how it is like , and they don't know how crippling it can be (anymore).
I think it is also plausible that some people who think like that also suffered from mental illness, found a solution, way of coping, or perspective which was helpful to them, then expect others to follow suit. Failing to realize that people deal with their own issues differently, and perhaps what worked for them might not work for the other person they are dishing "tough" love to.
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Default Jul 20, 2019 at 08:02 AM
  #36
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I think it is also plausible that some people who think like that also suffered from mental illness, found a solution, way of coping, or perspective which was helpful to them, then expect others to follow suit. Failing to realize that people deal with their own issues differently, and perhaps what worked for them might not work for the other person they are dishing "tough" love to.
Very likely, I've bumped into those.

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Default Jul 22, 2019 at 06:30 AM
  #37
I know I already posted in this thread but I was reading it over and thinking. I think "honest love" with compassion exists. It means supportively sharing what you believe to be the case (when asked), not pushing your views on someone and realizing when to step away. Stepping away can be a way for letting natural consequences happen-in the case of my daughter who is an addict we had to let her go until she came home asking for help. But "tough love" is more like asshole love. Its self righteous and self serving and more focused on the person giving the tough love being "right" rather than having concern for the welfare of the person receiving the tough love.

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Default Jul 27, 2019 at 12:03 PM
  #38
Tough love....it's such a selfish, mean way to treat another person. To me, it seems there are more creative options.

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Default Jul 27, 2019 at 12:21 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Nxious View Post
There is no such thing as tough love. Tough and love cannot be used in the same sentence. You cannot hurt someone and tell them you did that out of love. My father has always said he criticized me, hit me, and yelled at me only because he "loved me" and for my own sake. To succeed in life. He created a fragile and immature person instead with social anxiety and depression issues, and now as grown up as a failure in every aspect of life. I believe that only love and respect can make people change and make them better. Punishing people in the of hope they become better is an illusion. But it's easier than being patient and loving unconditionally. I identify as an atheist/agnostic now, but St. Paul verses on love are things to recall.
I so agree with this. Tough love, IMO, is a guise for abuse. It's completely different than holding to boundaries, or enforcing house rules, or enforcing consequences for disobeying parental rules. When I truly think of people who did what others refer to as "tough love" I see parents who it really hurt themselves to enforce a boundary with a child. As another person who suffered a lot of abuse under the guise of tough love, including a parent thinking that tough love would actually cure my medical condition, I find it really upsetting on here when people claim to be using "tough love." You don't love me, so no, it's not tough love. And I don't mind directness, and even, when called for, bluntness. What I dislike is people who claim to "just be blunt" when it's really a guise for allowing themselves to speak without thinking, regardless of considering what they are saying, to whom, and if it's truly helpful to the person they are saying it to, or if it's just their insatiable urge to say what they have to say regardless of it actually being compassionate or helpful. No one is perfect, and we all misspeak from time to time, but some people, it's their M.O.

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Default Jul 27, 2019 at 06:46 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
I know I already posted in this thread but I was reading it over and thinking. I think "honest love" with compassion exists. It means supportively sharing what you believe to be the case (when asked), not pushing your views on someone and realizing when to step away. Stepping away can be a way for letting natural consequences happen-in the case of my daughter who is an addict we had to let her go until she came home asking for help. But "tough love" is more like asshole love. Its self righteous and self serving and more focused on the person giving the tough love being "right" rather than having concern for the welfare of the person receiving the tough love.
Lol, I loved this. Including "asshole love".

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What if I fall? Oh, my dear, but what if you fly?

Primary Dx: C-PTSD and Severe Chronic Treatment Resistant Major Depressive Disorder
Secondary Dx: Generalized Anxiety Disorder with mild Agoraphobia.

Meds I've tried: Prozac, Zoloft, Celexa, Effexor, Remeron, Elavil, Wellbutrin, Risperidone, Abilify, Prazosin, Paxil, Trazadone, Tramadol, Topomax, Xanax, Propranolol, Valium, Visteril, Vraylar, Selinor, Clonopin, Ambien

Treatments I've done: CBT, DBT, Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), Talk therapy, psychotherapy, exercise, diet, sleeping more, sleeping less...
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