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Old 07-04-2019, 12:39 PM   #1
Photonate
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Default Permanent psychiatric hold?

I've done a little searching but haven't really found anything 'solid', pertaining to the criteria of/when the government will/can take over and permanently admit and hold you in a hospital or facility, against your will or with consent.

Just wondering if something like attempting to end your life enough times or checking into a hospital enough times will cause this to happen, or if it's usually more only when someone poses an immediate threat to others or becomes in a vegatative/incoherent etc. like state.

This is one thing that worries and causes a fair amount of stress, because I can think of ~5 different times I've been hospitalized, and at least another 5 checking into a Community Mental Health clinic, and the thought of ever being permanently held, is just...

Thank you, and hopefully this is the right section to post this in.
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Permanent psychiatric hold?

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Old 07-04-2019, 06:59 PM   #2
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Default Re: Permanent psychiatric hold?

the only thing I can thin k of is if you do something like try to kill the president & you are found not guilty by reason of insanity & they are required to hold you until you are deemed sane. but there are hearing etc during your incarceration they just don't throw away the key, etc.
I can' think of any instance where you will be held until death without a chance for hearings etc. in this day and age you might be hospitalized long term (months etc) in a state facility but not years. no one has that good of insurance and if you are that sick chances are you committed a crime.
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Old 07-05-2019, 10:00 AM   #3
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Default Re: Permanent psychiatric hold?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Photonate View Post
I've done a little searching but haven't really found anything 'solid', pertaining to the criteria of/when the government will/can take over and permanently admit and hold you in a hospital or facility, against your will or with consent.

Just wondering if something like attempting to end your life enough times or checking into a hospital enough times will cause this to happen, or if it's usually more only when someone poses an immediate threat to others or becomes in a vegatative/incoherent etc. like state.

This is one thing that worries and causes a fair amount of stress, because I can think of ~5 different times I've been hospitalized, and at least another 5 checking into a Community Mental Health clinic, and the thought of ever being permanently held, is just...

Thank you, and hopefully this is the right section to post this in.
here in america there is no permanent psychiatric holds. not even for the criminally insane (those that have committed a crime and take the insanity plea)

here we have a mental health system where a person can be committed for only up to the point where the inpatient treatment providers state that person is no longer a danger to their self or others.

example a treatment provider can have a person escorted to the er if they are suicidal, homicidal or self injuring, making threats of harm to one self or others. then at the ER they are evaluated by two hospital psychiatrists who both must agree that the person is a real, honest to goodness threat to their self and others, if so they are placed on the hospitals mental health unit for 72 hours (3 days) for observation and treatment, at or close to the 72 hours the whole team of psychiatrists, therapists, psychiatric nurses that have had any kind of contact with the patient have a meeting, compare notes and decide whether the patient needs to stay for another 2 weeks. the same thing happens after two weeks but with a change. if the patent still needs inpatient they must meet a new set of criteria that includes they have been dangerous to their self and others on the unit (extremely aggressive making threats and behaviors of suicide attempts, self injury attempts, escape attempts, the whole nine years worth of negative behaviors, thoughts and actions against their self and others) in this situation a court hearing is held to charge the person with what ever assaults and such they committed on the unit or to show the court that the person can not be trusted on their own. most times the court just takes away that persons rights to make their own decisions and appoints a guardian and then the guardian decides whether to take them home or have them continue with inpatient treatment at a longer term facility.

in either case court or guardian a person is remanded to a longer term facility where they receive more intensive inpatient treatment. and every two weeks their case is reviews by the inpatient team to decide whether this person is still a danger to their self or others.

with those that have chosen the insanity plea for a reason for committing a crime or the court has decided that they were too mentally ill to take part in their defense the court remands them to a state mental hospital and their case is reviewed every so much time usually monthly and every 6 months by a special panel of psychiatrists and nurses called the Psychiatric Review board. in order to stay inpatient still a person must be showing on the unit that they are extremely aggressive, will continue to harm someone if released and inpatient treatment options are not doing any good.


most do not want this avenue of inpatent life....they dont have any say at all in their lives... they get up when told they are forced to take their meds, everything right now to their bathroom routines are documented, watched and decided. if they refuse their meals, feeding tubes are ordered, if they refuse their meds, restraints and injections are done. Some if resistant to more conventional treatments, the likes of ECT and other stricter treatments are done. all against the mentally ill persons permission and court ordered if needed.

finally when the Review board states the mentally ill person has been treated/ rehabilitated they either stand trial for their crime, or their guardian picks an outpatent half way house, group home or residential treatment program for them to continue with their treatment and progress, with the hope that they earn back their decision making rights ( right to live their life with out someone telling them when to get up, when to take meds, when to get dressed, go tot he bathroom, watching everything and documenting everything, planning their day for them, having to have someone with them at all times making sure they are behaving and doing what they should be doing deciding what doctors they see and when... all these decision making rights ) and can take care of their selves once again.

my suggestion is continue to work with your treatment provider and not worry about permanent inpatient care, here in america you will never be in places permanently, america did away with "warehousing the criminally insane, mentally ill and the disabled" long ago way back in the 1960's and 1970's. here in america our system is more making sure people are able to function out patient status..
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Old 07-07-2019, 06:36 AM   #4
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Trig Re: Permanent psychiatric hold?

I'm in the UK, my doctors are concerned about me, I've been to the clinics and hospital, but no one will detain me under the mental health act and I also expressed concens. It seems they will only do it if I say I'm going to hurt myself or someone else immediately. If I say I 100% intend to hurt myself at a later date, they don't detain. And even then, if you act fine to the police and say you're not going to do anything then they let you go home

Last edited by sabby; 07-07-2019 at 03:23 PM.. Reason: Edited to bring within guidelines
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:16 PM   #5
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Default Re: Permanent psychiatric hold?

Yes you can be permanently held. I tell you this from experience. I am in the USA. I was literally in the hospital every week for about a year. I sh really bad. They sent me to a state hospital for 8 months. The only reason they let me out is because I wasn't hurting myself or anyone else in there. If I go back to the hospital for sh one more time I will go there again. Probably for the rest of my life. I know many people who are still there and some have died there. My cousin actually died there. Also you can go to the criminally insane side. They usually eventually go over to the civil side but I am certain there are those who are never getting out. What happens when you go in is you get a court date. It is held in a room at the state hospital with a judge. They decide how long you are going to stay. You have a bi monthly meeting with a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and several social workers. They basically really decide how long you will stay. I actually wanted to stay and they pushed me out. Reason being is the state is downsizing there hospital because of funds. So basically now you only stay there if you are majorly messed up and can not function in society. You have a mattress and a dresser. They have a female hall and male hall. There is staff in the center about 4. One is watching the door to the outside. One is watching the male hall. One is watching the female hall. One is watching and recording every single time you go in the bathroom. You cannot go to the bathroom for 10 min after med take because you might spit your pills. You go to the main building on a bus. You are there from 8 in the morning until 330 doing groups. The same boring groups over and over again. They arent even taught by real teachers. You can get a pass to go out with family if you are doing well enough but they search you everytime you come back. Anything you bring back has to be searched. Some people really have no hopes of getting out because they dont offer counseling. You are given a psychiatrist for meds, a psychologist that gives you all kinds of tests. Even ink blot tests to figure out what is going on with you. Then you have social workers to help you get placed somewhere if you can get out. If you are likely to get out they send you to day programs in the area you will be returning to see if you can adjust to the outside again. You do that for months before you are able to leave. You are in there with all kinds of people going off. They check on you every 10 minutes if you are in your room. It really sucks but I wanted to stay because I didnt get my problem resolved which actually was a physical problem but they saw it as psychiatric. There is a lady there who will not take her meds. She is depressed and delusional. The manager at the group home I live at says they are never letting her out. There is a catatonic lady there also never getting out. A lady who smashes her face into the wall also never getting out. They might claim they won't hold you for life but that is a lie. You only get medical treatment if you are half dead. You do not want to go there. If you are suicidal there you will have someone sitting within reaching distant 24\7 until your psychiatrist says that can be lifted. At the State hospital I was at they shut down one of the long term wards which forced me and some high functioning people out quickly. You get very little food and it's state regulated so not greatest quality. If you are fat they cut your food even more. So you may get a apple a vegetable and a piece of shady meat. The best meal there was a turkey and cheese hoagie which consisted of a large roll with barely any meat or cheese on it and chips. Sometimes people steal your food but they do try to keep an eye on that because in the lunch room they have about 4 people in there as well doing the same watching the outside door, bathroom, and two people watching you eat. Luckily the staff was nice but I heard that is not everywhere. Sometimes they snuck me pizza. They can also mandate Electric Shock Therapy and any meds they see fit. You don't have to believe me. I know it seems far fetched but I was there for 8 long months. One thing they do which is kind of stupid is if you are goid you can get ground privileges. They let you out to walk the non gated hospital grounds. You could easily walk off. There was a police station sitting at the front of the hospital so you couldn't get far. I was tempted to walk to McDonald's lol. One day on grounds I did sneak up to the old abandoned part of the hospital up on the hill. There was a window ajar where the homeless had been hiding in there. I really like old buildings and the paranormal so I was going to go in and look around but I was so afraid the floor would cave in. I was going to write a note that said hey if y'all cant find me I'm in the old hospital but they check the rooms every 1O minutes so they would have come to get me before I could make it in to see anything. In the state hospital you are not eligible for insurance state money pays it all which is why you get crappy medical care. When you first arrive there they take a chest cray and some blood. Anything else you have to be on deaths door and that's mainly just to make sure you dont have tuberculosis or HIV.

Last edited by Dnester; 07-11-2019 at 10:33 PM..
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Permanent psychiatric hold?

I think there may be some confusion...

a permanent psychiatric hold is when someone is in locked up mental hospital for ever, never to be released, never able to use have access to anything outside the hospital like computers, and cell phones and no access to off limits areas of a hospital.

permanent psych holds is what they used to do back in the 1800's through about the 1970's. the last permanent psych hold hospital closed down in 1970s for permanent admissions. they still had whats called "long term" mental hospitals but no more permanent (no one gets released) hospitals,

there is still "long term" mental hospitals and " short term" mental health units at local hospital facilities. but there is no "permanent" (as in never ever get released you are in there for ever until your end of life)

suggestion if you reread the posts here on psych central including in this thread you will notice everyone posting uses the wording "got released, was released " and other wording that shows they are or were in short term or long term hospitalizations not permanent holds kind of hospital.

I think you can rest easy that you wont be locked up forever and ever and ever. (permanent)
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Old 07-12-2019, 12:29 PM   #7
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Trig Re: Permanent psychiatric hold?

******Trigger warning*******

My cousin was locked up in the same hospital as I was and he died there. There was a girl there who had some rare medical disorder and she died there. They aim to let you out but for some people that is never a option. Why would they let you out if you were like the girl who banged her head until her eyes blacked and blood came out of her nose. She also swallowed plastic utensils. She constantly having to get surgery and then had to be hand fed. Do you honestly think she will ever be able to return to society? They have a graveyard on the State hospital property for people whos family had abandoned them and they have died there. Im not making this up. Yes they have access to a phone on the wall. Some people are not allowed off the grounds. The lady that died there used to hit everyone that was there. She would never keep any clothes on and urinated in the corner. She had 24/7 watch. She died there. I know that for a fact. People want to think that mental hospitals have changed alot over the years. They have not that much. There were people there with straight jackets and in padded rooms. Some were forced to wear helmets if they were head bangers. I'm not trying to scare you. I'm just telling you, you dont want to go. I have been there. They are not going to tell you hey you will be here forever. If they did alot of people's behavior would just stay the same. Criminals in prison who have life are more likely to kill inmates. Why, because what do they have to lose? Same thing in the state hodpital. They can keep you until you die. It's all about your behavior. I live in a group home with a guy. He is my best friend here. He killed someone for beating his mother. He bounced from jail to jail and state hospital to hospital for violence. Why did they let him go? Because he stopped doing that stuff. If he continued to beat the crap out of people you honestly think they would let him out? They always say when you go to the hospital. I am going to place you in the state hospital "long term." It is up to the judge, and treatment team if you ever get out. There was a guy there he used to say stupid stuff like oodles are for noodles and caboodles. Rhyming stuff. That's basically all he did. Several times a day. Otherwise normal as could be and he is still there. One of the guys I was there with transitioned to my group home. He started saying that the manager was stealing his money and he had the F.b.i. surrounding the building. Back to the state hospital he went. He wasn't even here two days. Honestly it's best that some dont ever get out if they hurt people.

Last edited by Dnester; 07-12-2019 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 07-13-2019, 10:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: Permanent psychiatric hold?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dnester View Post
******Trigger warning*******

My cousin was locked up in the same hospital as I was and he died there. There was a girl there who had some rare medical disorder and she died there. They aim to let you out but for some people that is never a option. Why would they let you out if you were like the girl who banged her head until her eyes blacked and blood came out of her nose. She also swallowed plastic utensils. She constantly having to get surgery and then had to be hand fed. Do you honestly think she will ever be able to return to society? They have a graveyard on the State hospital property for people whos family had abandoned them and they have died there. Im not making this up. Yes they have access to a phone on the wall. Some people are not allowed off the grounds. The lady that died there used to hit everyone that was there. She would never keep any clothes on and urinated in the corner. She had 24/7 watch. She died there. I know that for a fact. People want to think that mental hospitals have changed alot over the years. They have not that much. There were people there with straight jackets and in padded rooms. Some were forced to wear helmets if they were head bangers. I'm not trying to scare you. I'm just telling you, you dont want to go. I have been there. They are not going to tell you hey you will be here forever. If they did alot of people's behavior would just stay the same. Criminals in prison who have life are more likely to kill inmates. Why, because what do they have to lose? Same thing in the state hodpital. They can keep you until you die. It's all about your behavior. I live in a group home with a guy. He is my best friend here. He killed someone for beating his mother. He bounced from jail to jail and state hospital to hospital for violence. Why did they let him go? Because he stopped doing that stuff. If he continued to beat the crap out of people you honestly think they would let him out? They always say when you go to the hospital. I am going to place you in the state hospital "long term." It is up to the judge, and treatment team if you ever get out. There was a guy there he used to say stupid stuff like oodles are for noodles and caboodles. Rhyming stuff. That's basically all he did. Several times a day. Otherwise normal as could be and he is still there. One of the guys I was there with transitioned to my group home. He started saying that the manager was stealing his money and he had the F.b.i. surrounding the building. Back to the state hospital he went. He wasn't even here two days. Honestly it's best that some dont ever get out if they hurt people.
your question why didnt they let him go....

he was the one that made that decision through his own behavior of committing crimes every time he was released.

they didnt stick him in a mental hospital for ever, your own post states he got released then committed crimes then got hospitalized again. thats not permanent hold.

thats called choosing to commit a crime then his lawyer defended him and his crime in court with the guilty except for insanity plea. which got him hospitalized for a second time. then he got released and did it again.

permanent means never ever, betting released not even once... here is what it means to be permanently hospitalized...

pretend I have tried to commit suicide. a court says my problem can never be managed or solved. so the court sends me to a hospital and no matter what I do in there I never ever get released for any reason. my file would say "not eligable for being released.

then for the rest of my life my home is the mental hospital never leaving.

think of it like someone coming along and telling you, that you are so dangerious you can not step outside your home ever, your doors and windows are locked tight and theres a guard making sure that you never open your door and leave your home, not even to check the mail, or go tot he store, you are stuck forever in that place never getting out, not even once.

thats what permanent holds are. they were used in the 1800's up to the 1970's to be a forever home for those that could .........never ever....... be outside again.

your cousin was released over and over again according to your post so that says they were not in permanent hold.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:46 PM   #9
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Trig Re: Permanent psychiatric hold?

No my friend was released over and over again. My cousin was there till his death and so we're many others. If you want I can pm you the state hospital and you can ask them about the graveyard full of people on the property. Those that didnt have family and were never released. I think you said you are in N.Y. you could even take a long drive and come to see it. Probably about a 7 hour drive. I lived there for 8 months. They are not going to let people out that chew spoons up and swallow to kill themselves and have to be hand fed. That would make them responsible for a death. They are not going to let you out if you think that you are God and it is your duty to eliminate people off the face of the Earth. It is lesser evil to have them permanently held than out killing themselves or other people. Had I been self harming everyday in there and continued to do it the rest of my life at the hospital they would not let me out either. Group homes are crowded. There is no one to stand over you and watch you every minute of your life. I know I have self harmed here many times which is why I risk going back to the state hospital. 99% of the time when you go into a State Hospital your family is done with you to. They arent going to watch you all day long or pay someone to if they let you come home. My group home has around 88 people in it right now. Maybe 7 out of all of us has any family that visits or even calls us here. It's like they fell of the face of the Earth. People dont want to deal with you when you say aliens visit you at night. No one is there for these people. There are two people to watch all 88 people. There isn't even any staff on the second floor where I am. Only first and third. They also font care what you are going through. I self harmed first day I got out of the State Hospital. They kicked me out and I was homeless until they found me another place. Also when people self harm you are looked down upon. Not given any encouragement.

Last edited by Dnester; 07-13-2019 at 10:02 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 09:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: Permanent psychiatric hold?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dnester View Post
No my friend was released over and over again. My cousin was there till his death and so we're many others. If you want I can pm you the state hospital and you can ask them about the graveyard full of people on the property. Those that didnt have family and were never released. I think you said you are in N.Y. you could even take a long drive and come to see it. Probably about a 7 hour drive. I lived there for 8 months. They are not going to let people out that chew spoons up and swallow to kill themselves and have to be hand fed. That would make them responsible for a death. They are not going to let you out if you think that you are God and it is your duty to eliminate people off the face of the Earth. It is lesser evil to have them permanently held than out killing themselves or other people. Had I been self harming everyday in there and continued to do it the rest of my life at the hospital they would not let me out either. Group homes are crowded. There is no one to stand over you and watch you every minute of your life. I know I have self harmed here many times which is why I risk going back to the state hospital. 99% of the time when you go into a State Hospital your family is done with you to. They arent going to watch you all day long or pay someone to if they let you come home. My group home has around 88 people in it right now. Maybe 7 out of all of us has any family that visits or even calls us here. It's like they fell of the face of the Earth. People dont want to deal with you when you say aliens visit you at night. No one is there for these people. There are two people to watch all 88 people. There isn't even any staff on the second floor where I am. Only first and third. They also font care what you are going through. I self harmed first day I got out of the State Hospital. They kicked me out and I was homeless until they found me another place. Also when people self harm you are looked down upon. Not given any encouragement.
Im sorry Dnestor that I cant seem to explain this to you in a way that you understand what I am trying to say. my suggestion is contact your treatment providers and they will explain the differences between short term and long term hospitalizations and why here in america there is no more permanent mental health holds.
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