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Default Jan 08, 2020 at 04:51 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Paper Roses View Post
Trisha
I've heard good and bad about McGregor. What does she say?
I've wondered if my accepting attitude contributed to my kids selfishness.
I think they made have been the type of new souls in need of a strong hand.
I do know that loving and understanding is not wrong. It might have been worse had they not had the love that we gave them.

I was not a very good father. I was a wonderful mother. I was a one woman band. Due to my abusive childhood I had no extended family support. Some children might be appreciative of a mother who was so alone but loved and provided so much more than she ever received. Mine are not.
It’s really interesting how she takes the reader through the stages she went through. The shock, anger, then the ruminating about what she did to cause it. We all do this.

She said one thing that struck a nerve with me; that the emotional state of the mother can affect the development of the child. She thinks she had some issue with this. I had an issue with this too. When I first came on PC it was for a problem with this between me and my husband, me and my mother— never between me and my children... but I suppose it did affect them after all. BUT— This was not the reason my son gave for how he has been hurtful. In fact, we discussed my emotional issues with them and said how it has nothing to do with them and we love them very much, and they seem pretty ok with that. In looking to blame myself, this issue is really all I have that I am truly guilty for.

The author says she did not know the reason in her case, wasn’t given a reason, really didn’t do anything to cause it and that is the general consensus of good parents who don’t deserve to become estranged but are getting this treatment from their grown children.

I’m happy to report that what happened with my husband, me, and our son was a rift caused by treatment we have received from him and his now wife. We didn’t give in and go along, were quite vocal about it...I’m no go-along!
He’s furious with us. We know why. I have been steadily reaching out with love and forgiveness. Today we did exchange a text and I feel really good and hopeful about that being a move in the right direction, albeit a long haul, I expect.

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Default Jan 08, 2020 at 06:26 PM
  #22
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I'm heart sick, depressed, and have aged 15 years during these past 14 months. I was a youthful woman with good physical health. That's gone out the window.

I strongly suspect that N's therapist is encouraging her to do the "NC" (no contact) thing that is a trend with some young people these days. I would understand - IF my daughter had a reason to cut ties. But there is no valid reason.

I never, never believed that a child could be "spoiled" with love...but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm developing health problems that I feel are due to the tremendous grief I have in the pit of my stomach.
I can relate to some of the things you have gone through.

Most parents give their all to their children hoping they will grow up to be secure and loving people. We could never imagine living our lives totally separated from them. So when it doesn't turn out as we imagined--we are left feeling empty (to say the least).

I have had therapists, pschologists and family members suggest that I have VERY little contact and that some of the problems they have are because I helped them too much. This no contact thing is a trend regarding all kinds of relationships.

I also thought a child couldn't be spoiled. I felt grateful to my dad for spoiling me so I thought that was what you should do but perhaps I was wrong. My husband has said that children are born with their own personalities. Perhaps he is right about this.

Grief and anxiety can definitely ruin our health. I am hoping to turn mine around. The despair got so bad for me that I found myself turning to God in a more sincere way for comfort. I spend a lot more time meditating, praying and studying the Bible. I believe we are all here by divine design (but have free will) and that our children (including their individual personalities) were purposely selected for us. Perhaps struggles we go through are meant to help us grow into better people. Though I do take some medications for MI issues (not sure how much of it is simply because of our despair)--this new way of thinking (and purposely not thinking about my children's problems as much but instead working on what I need to do for my future not theirs) has lifted my depression and anxiety.

I hope you figure out a way to feel better too! It has been a long road but I am starting to turn how I feel inside around. Everything starts from how we feel inside. I pray that everyone with these struggles starts feeling better and better.
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Default Jan 08, 2020 at 09:21 PM
  #23
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I agree that people thrive under loving and caring and understanding parenting. I believe that my children are better off having been loved and spoiled in some ways. But they chose to take advantage of my good nature and to manipulate. I only see this in retrospect. I do not take others for granted nor do I manipulate people who trust me. Many people do though. My children do.

There is much about individual behavior that science/psychology is only beginning to understand. But at least 50 percent of personality or character is inherited and the rest is nurture. There are very interesting studies that were done on twins that were separated at birth and raised in different families.
Look up twin studies. They have astonishing similarities that can only be attributed to heredity.

My point is that my daughter is very much like my mother but she was around my mother very little. My son is a lot like his father, my first husband. He did not know him well. Some things are not within our control.

I have found a measure of peace in focusing on my own life as well. The pain comes and goes but it is better.

Thanks for sharing.
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Default Jan 08, 2020 at 10:18 PM
  #24
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Lily

I think both are true. How can I tell my friends whose children seem perfect!


Think about it! In this culture and maybe all cultures parents are blamed for their children's character flaws. The opposite is spoken about often.

" what a great man you raised!" I see the sports celebrities talk about their mothers raising them alone and of their respect for their mothers. It breaks me.


My daughter and son married young and were divorced young. They had my husband and I. They had exes who paid child support and co parented!


That is a million miles from what I did! How dare they criticize me! I bounce from grief to rage daily. This can't be good for my health. I need to let go.


I do that too. I let go and then I have these imaginary conversation s with them.


How do you all feel about writing a letter?


I hear you and I understand your pain.

I have a written a letter that I will share with my counselor and nobody else.

I have made apologies because it gave me peace of mind to do so. I’m not perfect but I’ve always tried hard.

I’ve been going through the cycles of grief as well - back and forth between anger and sadness.

I’m very determined that I’m going to take better care of myself emotionally from now on because I sure have beat myself up a lot.
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Default Jan 08, 2020 at 10:26 PM
  #25
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Tuned

I agree that people thrive under loving and caring and understanding parenting. I believe that my children are better off having been loved and spoiled in some ways. But they chose to take advantage of my good nature and to manipulate. I only see this in retrospect. I do not take others for granted nor do I manipulate people who trust me. Many people do though. My children do.


There is much about individual behavior that science/psychology is only beginning to understand. But at least 50 percent of personality or character is inherited and the rest is nurture. There are very interesting studies that were done on twins that were separated at birth and raised in different families.

Look up twin studies. They have astonishing similarities that can only be attributed to heredity.


My point is that my daughter is very much like my mother but she was around my mother very little. My son is a lot like his father, my first husband. He did not know him well. Some things are not within our control.


I have found a measure of peace in focusing on my own life as well. The pain comes and goes but it is better.


Thanks for sharing.


My daughter is also similar to my mother and I keep wondering if I am also like both of them. Everyone tells me I look and act nothing like them. How did my daughter end up with more of my mother’s nature than mine?

I’ve heard of those studies done on twins and it’s quite remarkable and thought provoking.

What do you think about generational legacies and all this baggage we have and was it handed down to us? I recently looked at 200 years of my family genealogy and was surprised to see some of the patterns that have repeated. I have made some similar choices and mistakes as past grandmothers. I also look like a great-great grandmother. That was weird to see her picture and see myself in her face.
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Default Jan 08, 2020 at 10:30 PM
  #26
@TunedOut

I have also been turning to God and prayer recently. I have felt the need for a deeper and more meaningful faith.
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Default Jan 08, 2020 at 11:02 PM
  #27
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My daughter is also similar to my mother and I keep wondering if I am also like both of them. Everyone tells me I look and act nothing like them. How did my daughter end up with more of my mother’s nature than mine?

I’ve heard of those studies done on twins and it’s quite remarkable and thought provoking.

What do you think about generational legacies and all this baggage we have and was it handed down to us? I recently looked at 200 years of my family genealogy and was surprised to see some of the patterns that have repeated. I have made some similar choices and mistakes as past grandmothers. I also look like a great-great grandmother. That was weird to see her picture and see myself in her face.
I also have been looking at my genealogy. I actually broke some of the negative patterns. It's not easy the patterns are long and deeply ingrained. This is what my book is about.

I have seen character traits skip generations. My mother and my daughter both married repeatedly. Not twice but in my mother's case 5 times. My daughter four. Looking for Mr. Goodyear.

My granddaughter is more like me. She is reserved and does not act out. She is nothing like my daughter, her mother. I'm not much like my mother. As I said my mother saw my children rarely and they were not close. My daughter does not even know the details of her life.

I believe it is both structural, role modeling and spiritual. By structural I mean brain structure. If we can resemble others physically then so too can our brains. Brains vary a lot and some have less capacity for empathy than others and chemical makeup also effects empathy.

T h ere is a Ted talk that explains lot. The speakers name is
James Fallon, like the late night host. He is a neuroscientist who studied the brains of killers. He discovered something very strange. If you can find it it's very interesting. If you have any trouble finding it and you want to see it let me know.

Good to know that you are focused on your happiness. Some people have an abundance of empathy and forget to include sell.
I'm working ok raking on caring more for me. I even tell myself
"Good job" and other affirmations. It works.

Thanks for your post.
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Default Jan 09, 2020 at 12:01 AM
  #28
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I agree that people thrive under loving and caring and understanding parenting. I believe that my children are better off having been loved and spoiled in some ways. But they chose to take advantage of my good nature and to manipulate. I only see this in retrospect. I do not take others for granted nor do I manipulate people who trust me. Many people do though. My children do.

I have found a measure of peace in focusing on my own life as well. The pain comes and goes but it is better.
We both agree on this. (Children need love and understanding.) They also need boundaries which has never been my strength but I am working on it.

People have also manipulated me but I am learning to recognize better when it is happening and am slowly learning to say "no", withdraw when people are so upset they are lashing out, and to not keep giving to people who don't give back.

My pain still comes and goes occassionally. I think we can continue to make progress towards focussing on bringing our lives joy. The more we do that and the more we stop focussing on those that have caused us pain--the better life can be.
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Default Jan 09, 2020 at 12:03 AM
  #29
Oh I forgot to comment on your statement about the emotional state of the mother. I have yet to meet a perfect mother. I have never met a person whose childhood was without occasional strife.

I was at times depressed when my kids were young. Like you we talked. I took t them to see my therapist to help them understand..that it wasn't about them.

Lots of parents , especially when I was young explained nothing. Do as you are told was the rule. Yet somehow we did not abandon our parents or show total disrespect. We did not abandon our children when they were difficult. No one escapes childhood without some neurosis. As an adult one takes responsibility and finds their way.

So no doubt we were flawed. We did nothing to deserve this. I know you do not think and did not say that our children are justified in doing what was done to us.
It's just that life is hard. Harder for some than others. I want to tell my kids to grow up! Sorry if I'm ranting.
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Default Jan 09, 2020 at 08:00 AM
  #30
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Oh I forgot to comment on your statement about the emotional state of the mother. I have yet to meet a perfect mother. I have never met a person whose childhood was without occasional strife.

I was at times depressed when my kids were young. Like you we talked. I took t them to see my therapist to help them understand..that it wasn't about them.

Lots of parents , especially when I was young explained nothing. Do as you are told was the rule. Yet somehow we did not abandon our parents or show total disrespect. We did not abandon our children when they were difficult. No one escapes childhood without some neurosis. As an adult one takes responsibility and finds their way. Yes, we never would have dreamed of abandoning our parents and they were more stern parents due to the ways of their generation. Now, this estrangement has become an option growing in popularity. The author talks about how our generation as parents gave our kids so much coddling, all the extra curricular lessons vs. the former generations where children worked the farm to help the family and contributed. Then the internet changed so much including their generation’s ability to empathize.

So no doubt we were flawed. We did nothing to deserve this. I know you do not think and did not say that our children are justified in doing what was done to us.
It's just that life is hard. Harder for some than others. I want to tell my kids to grow up! Sorry if I'm ranting.
I agree!

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Default Jan 09, 2020 at 08:06 AM
  #31
Here’s the ultimate example of extreme changes taking place in family dynamics. The Queen is going through all this, too... just saying!
Meghan Markle and Prince Harry are stepping down from royal family roles — and many are cheering them on

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Default Jan 09, 2020 at 08:38 AM
  #32
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We both agree on this. (Children need love and understanding.) They also need boundaries which has never been my strength but I am working on it.

People have also manipulated me but I am learning to recognize better when it is happening and am slowly learning to say "no", withdraw when people are so upset they are lashing out, and to not keep giving to people who don't give back.

My pain still comes and goes occassionally. I think we can continue to make progress towards focussing on bringing our lives joy. The more we do that and the more we stop focussing on those that have caused us pain--the better life can be.
In my case, I maintained boundaries. The fallout was about boundaries. We held firm and he abandoned us over it. I feel we did the right thing and were honestly being good parents by sticking to our principles. Maybe in time our relationship will repair and a valuable lesson will be learned. Honor thy father and mother.

It’s like when you stand up to any bully. They’re not going to like it. You walk away with your self esteem. They are fuming mad.

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Default Jan 09, 2020 at 12:05 PM
  #33
Tisha
Thank you for understanding my point. I know I had issues. Who doesn't?.

I regret trying as hard as I have to be "fair" and to hear my adult children's complaints. I was so shocked when I heard that they had concerns I needed to know what they were!

So what were they? I was gone too much. They don't suggest I was out dancing! They acknowledge that I was working or attending class.

My son said I should have gotten married! Imagine! He thought he was entitled to make that decision for me! He remembered a man I was dating who wanted to marry me, when my son was 8 years old. Ahem. He was an attorney.
What my son did not know is he got lost in cocaine. I did not use drugs. In fact no one who knew him then knows where he is now.

Should have seen my son's face when I told him that! I did not share that with an eight year old.

So, I worked too hard. I did not make enough money. I chose to remain single.

My daughter's complaints are more in the present. My husband and I did so much for her. After I was hospitalized in 2015 with a serious health issue. I almost died. We began doing less for her. In fact I even asked her to drive me to an appointment a few times. She did so one time. Then suddenly was too busy.
Then she said she did not want to see me anymore.

Basically I was requiring some of her time. She drinks a lot and it has gotten worse in the past five years. I pray that she hits bottom.

Both of my children when asked have stated that they felt loved and safe.

I wish I could tell them how I feel. I never have. I think it's a bad idea so I have not.
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Default Jan 10, 2020 at 05:43 AM
  #34
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Tisha
Thank you for understanding my point. I know I had issues. Who doesn't?.

I regret trying as hard as I have to be "fair" and to hear my adult children's complaints. I was so shocked when I heard that they had concerns I needed to know what they were!

So what were they? I was gone too much. They don't suggest I was out dancing! They acknowledge that I was working or attending class.

My son said I should have gotten married! Imagine! He thought he was entitled to make that decision for me! He remembered a man I was dating who wanted to marry me, when my son was 8 years old. Ahem. He was an attorney.
What my son did not know is he got lost in cocaine. I did not use drugs. In fact no one who knew him then knows where he is now.
These excuses your son gave seem radically disproportionate. Did he imply that because you worked’too much’ you didn’t give him enough attention to really bond into a lasting relationship? Did he imply that you should have gotten married so he had a male role model? Is he trying to tell you he felt neglected and was he? Was he emotionally not given enough attention in reality or even just in his own mind? Did you thoroughly discuss this with him? Could the relationship be built up and improved with the now adult son? I think estrangement is extreme and his comments don’t seem reasonable. What do you think is really going on with him?
Should have seen my son's face when I told him that! I did not share that with an eight year old.

So, I worked too hard. I did not make enough money. I chose to remain single.

My daughter's complaints are more in the present. My husband and I did so much for her. After I was hospitalized in 2015 with a serious health issue. I almost died. We began doing less for her. In fact I even asked her to drive me to an appointment a few times. She did so one time. Then suddenly was too busy.
Then she said she did not want to see me anymore.
What really happened in her mind? Again, these are not reasonable reasons. Could it be she was so upset at nearly losing you that she abandoned you? I know that sounds illogical but maybe that’s her issue? Was everything really discussed with her and can this relationship be repaired?She is using alcohol to maladaptively cope. Is she blaming you for her issues? Kids do that. It’s got to be all mom’s fault to them.
Basically I was requiring some of her time. She drinks a lot and it has gotten worse in the past five years. I pray that she hits bottom.

Both of my children when asked have stated that they felt loved and safe.

I wish I could tell them how I feel. I never have. I think it's a bad idea so I have not.
Maybe you can focus on telling them about the love you have for them. After the shyt hit the fan with my son, I’m trying to move forward still as his mother after the fallout. I sent him a birthday gift and he thanked me. I wasn’t sure if he’d tell me to shove it. I’m okay with that I let money talk and it worked, at least for the moment. Why should I punish him forever? I chose to put away the incident and hope to eventually rebuild a relationship. We’ll see. It takes two.

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Default Jan 10, 2020 at 08:30 AM
  #35
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Maybe you can focus on telling them about the love you have for them. After the shyt hit the fan with my son, I’m trying to move forward still as his mother after the fallout. I sent him a birthday gift and he thanked me. I wasn’t sure if he’d tell me to shove it. I’m okay with that I let money talk and it worked, at least for the moment. Why should I punish him forever? I chose to put away the incident and hope to eventually rebuild a relationship. We’ll see. It takes two.
Thank you for this. This has been going on for five years. I did make attempts to resolve things with them. I listened and agreed that life was difficult. I was completely alone as were they. I had no extended family at the time. Their father showed up to see them once or twice a year. I left their father and he could not cope so he abandoned his children. I can't imagine not seeing my children except once a year.

This created a very difficult situation. I was gone a lot and they had wonderful child care givers but no family. It would have helped so much to have a sibling or anyone. So yes they suffered and their emotional needs were not always met.

My son and I made a decision to work on reconnecting, although as a young adult he was at our home often. We agreed to certain things and it was going well until I was hospitalized again. Things fell apart badly. I was again seriously physically ill.

Perhaps the fear of losing me is a factor. I'm all they ever had. But he withdrew and has no desire to see me. It makes no sense I agree. His reasoning is so superficial? He is 46 years old remember. I believe the ball is in their court. Of course I have not shared all of the details but he was cruel beyond belief when I was in the hospital and ... I think he needs to come to me.

I think his behavior is based in extreme self centeredness and I can no longer justify coddling him. It's time he gives to me. I have always given and I think that is the reason for his attitude.

I'm open to contacting both of them at some point. When and what to say is one of the things I intend to explore here.

I'm so happy that you are working out things with your son. I have forgiven and begun anew repeatedly with both of my children. I give and give. I need them to give back now.
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Default Jan 11, 2020 at 01:39 PM
  #36
Just a quick note -- I'm going over to my son's house to "hang out" in a little while. I may be on the other side of this. I hope so but take nothing for granted.

My son and I were never estranged but my daughter was. She would not respond to me and initiated nothing, except Christmas cards with photos of her family, for about 5 years. We've been talking for about 2 now. First year was better than this last one, but contact has not been shut down again. I'm hopeful we may move forward again but can't know -- and can't control -- whether that will happen or not.

When she first stopped talking to me my psychiatrist at the time said, "Well, she's an adult." I was horrified. Her not talking to me was, to me, WRONG. So, what could I do about it? Nothing, apparently. And he didn't think there was anything so necessarily bad or wrong about it. Just something for me to accept? To me that was incomprehensible. I called and asked for another appointment, got one the next day I think, for him to try to explain this to me. I still didn't agree with him after the appointment but understood that was his point of view and might be others' as well.

I'm not a fan of the mental health profession and this is not the place to talk about that. Just to say, we are not alone. And the strength of mothers' love, even imperfect mothers' love, may have been underestimated. I hope so anyway!
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Default Jan 11, 2020 at 06:14 PM
  #37
This thread is under Health and other and sub forum called “ grief and loss”

Hope this makes it easier for you to find

I have some to add here but I’m still sorting things out about it all

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Default Jan 11, 2020 at 07:08 PM
  #38
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Thanks.
I would love to think my situation may change. It has changed before. We try and then I do something unforgivable.

Last time I called him from the hospital and asked why he hadn’t called to see if I was ok for 2 days. I called him the night I was admitted. He said he thought I must have gone home. Apparently I was supposed to call him to say I was still in the hospital.

I guess my secretary should have called his secretary to update him on his mother’s condition. He was angry that I had not called him and hung up. He did not ask how I was doing.

My son is very successful. A CEO. I guess I just don’t know the rules.

We had been working on our relationship before that and he had said he wanted to be there for me more. He tends to be very busy.

I don’t know. Maybe expecting him to call me when I’m on deaths door is too much. ?

BTW. So so glad you have your children in your life. I disagree with your pdoc. It’s not normal for children who are adults to not care about their mother. It’s very unusual.

I am open to this to change.

Thanks again.

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Default Jan 11, 2020 at 07:43 PM
  #39
The group for this subject exists, but this thread seems to be where posts are happening.

My kids are both doing very well in life, which is not a surprise. They were raised with a tremendous amount of love and support. And encouragement. And stability. My daughter was so indulged, in fact, that she's selfish and self-serving. I never faced that before she stopped communicating with me. I have finally had to come to terms with the reality...I have always adored her and been there for her 100%, without exception. I guess I taught her to be obsessed with herself.

I don't know. I'm exhausted from 14 months of ruminating over the whole thing. I miss her so much that I feel I'm losing sanity. I was youthful and had a sparkle, even when I was down. Now I'm a sad, aged woman with no meaning to my life. My therapist keeps saying there's hope for all this great stuff. What great stuff? Hope for what? Hope that someday my kids might visit me a few times/year on a Sunday for an hour?

I feel less hopeful with every day that passes.

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Default Jan 11, 2020 at 07:47 PM
  #40
It sounds like that pdoc had issues with his kid/s. Such a foolish thing to say...yes, they're adults and for that reason they should have the wisdom to know the value of relationship with their parents.

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