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Default Apr 21, 2020 at 05:04 PM
  #1
I really liked learning about this. I couldn't find the original article I read yesterday but will post this one instead:

Narcissists are so cruel partly because of something called '''object constancy''' - Business Insider

This really resonated with me because when my partner and I get into an argument, he resorts to name-calling and "break-up" threats. I used to wonder why he was reacting to such a degree that he'd cry, storm off, hide at his parents, drive off.. after discussing a seemingly minor concern. I then felt he just didn't want to be with me anymore and was looking for an excuse to get out of this relationship.

He claims he does NOT want us to break up but is so reactive. So this piece made total sense to me.

The other article pointed out 3 characteristics of NDP (with a pretty good description):

1) hypersensitive
2) low to no empathy
3) no object constancy (although I think it read "object permanence" instead)
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Default Apr 22, 2020 at 12:22 PM
  #2
I was never diagnosed with NPD, was diagnosed with PDNOS about 10 years ago. I believe I have/had a related condition, a focus on people-pleasing and ideals, may have had OCPD before I fell apart after my late husband died. With that qualification --

I believe the statement, common from psychologists and psychiatrists these days, that

Quote:
Narcissists cannot change, so the best thing to do is to leave and protect yourself.
should be viewed as a statement of those professionals' lack of knowledge, and/or ability, to help those individuals.

And, with that attitude, who among that profession are going to look for ways to help people deal with or overcome such deep-seated situations?

Unfortunately, they are also not interested in doing any researach with us which might help them, and the rest of society help people like narcissists (and me, but in another way) who cannot fully or really "engage" with other people and the rest of the world, in an interpersonal way.

I "worked very hard" for more than 50 years in and out of therapy, the last 5 on my own after the last therapist said that she "did not have the emotional resources to continue", with the help of another forum on PC and an in-person support group I lucked into. And I think I now have some clues. But nobody in the psychotherapy field that I have found is interested. . .

Yep -- just discard all the narcissists and others with similar conditions. That's their answer. They don't know what else to do. . .
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Default Apr 22, 2020 at 04:37 PM
  #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by here today View Post

I believe the statement, common from psychologists and psychiatrists these days, that
should be viewed as a statement of those professionals' lack of knowledge, and/or ability, to help those individuals.

And, with that attitude, who among that profession are going to look for ways to help people deal with or overcome such deep-seated situations?

Yep -- just discard all the narcissists and others with similar conditions. That's their answer. They don't know what else to do. . .
I agree, 100%. I've read a lot of conflicting information about how to proceed. Most articles suggests to practice low-to-no contact. As much as I understand the need for this, I do believe the root for anyone with NDP is trauma of some kind. It's heartless to say, "Cut them out of your life!"

I have an adult child with special needs and he had some challenging behaviours growing up. In fact, I had contemplated suicide a few times along the way because I just didn't know how to help and I felt hopeless. But, he's my baby! I was a single parent. Who would take care of him? He'd feel abandoned and carry a lot of pain and blame for the rest of his life. So naturally, I stuck around.

I'm sorry if this article offended anyone. I was trying to focus on the "Objective Constancy" piece I found interesting.. and will say, I see it in myself, too. When my partner and I get into an argument, I often feel like it's the end of our relationship. The anxieties that come with it is intolerable.. so when we get past that point, the comfort becomes a tool of survival.

It wasn't the article I was hoping to post but I can't say the other one (I lost) would have been any better with what you've pointed out.
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Default Apr 22, 2020 at 07:37 PM
  #4
Name calling and break up threats/actions... sounds familiar. I'm pretty sure someone I was engaged to was a Narcissist. He called me all sorts of mean names but said he loved me and often threatened to leave, walking out of the door and saying ''it's too late'' ... this happened several times. I didn't know about the issue of object constancy in relation to Narcissists I don't think, interesting. Could someone describe the phenomenon of ''splitting'' a bit more?

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Default Apr 22, 2020 at 09:18 PM
  #5
"In this situation, the child needs to feel cared for, even though their parent isn't supplying them with that, and so they repress the negative aspects of the "object," the mother, so they can hold onto the positive ones. In the child's mind, the idea of the mother is being preserved and destroyed at the same time."

Repress -- inhibit the expression or development of something.

I'm thinking the child develops conflicting feelings about the mom and in order to survive, it has to split the positive from the negative which then damages the development of object constancy.

Lol I don't quite get it, either. I'll need to look ěnto it again.
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Default Apr 22, 2020 at 10:00 PM
  #6
A friend texted recently that she felt that people in the opposite political party (narcissists) wanted to annihilate her and people who felt like she did. My reply has disappeared off the thread but I said something like I thought that they didn't want to annihilate HER but they wanted to annihilate the part of themselves that was concerned with others, because that would threaten their sense that they were the only ones who counted. I, on the other hand annihilated my concern and value for my own self because it threatened my mother and my mother's resulting valuation of me -- that I didn't count -- was more important to me, for my survival and well-being, than I myself was. When my mother looked at me with hatred and contempt, it was an either-or situation, in that moment. (It didn't happen all the time but it did sometimes and I was little and had to "choose".) Her valuation won. For narcissists I suspect it is the other way around. Although, actually, there does seem to be a little narcissist in me, too. It's just that it flip-flops between all-other or all-me, it's not very integrated -- I'm not a constant me, maybe.

This seems and feels a lot like "splitting" to me. It's definitely not conscious and not anything that I could control or consciously gain much access to and even my conscious trying to get in touch with whatever was going on has been very laborious, over many years.

Also is related to object constancy, I guess.

There ought to be a way for therapists to help with this, I would think. But since they haven't found it yet, then it seems like it is up to is to try to do something about it if we can. And then, maybe, pass along any tips and successes stories, if we have them. Although, as I said, as of now I have not found any therapists who are interested.
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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 12:26 AM
  #7
"Individuals who have not achieved object constancy /object permanence still relate to reality using the defensive of splitting. ... They cannot tolerate ambivalence (mixed feelings) hence the term, splitting. The individual who causes the frustration is seen as all bad, and if pleasurable, then all good."
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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 12:29 AM
  #8
4 Kinds of Object Constancy in Psychology

Poor Attachment Patterns: Children should attach to their parents, their family members, their friends, and as people grow older, their romantic partners.

Borderline Personality Disorder

Low Self-Esteem

A Disconnect from Reality
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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 01:47 AM
  #9
I love a NPD!!! I have borderline personality disorder and I'm way way way worse than he is in the emotion regulations department and I'm cruel to him way more than he is too me. But he is still a NPD and alot of his ego fillers are twisted and he fails to be able to recognize the reality of our lives. I honestly dont know who's reality is real, mine or his. I WONDER WHAT OUTSIDERS SEE OUR REALITY AS!!!!!!!????? I JUST HAD THIS COME TO MIND!!! LMFAO!!!
THANKS FOR THIS POST!!!

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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 03:10 AM
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsLady View Post
"Individuals who have not achieved object constancy /object permanence still relate to reality using the defensive of splitting. ... They cannot tolerate ambivalence (mixed feelings) hence the term, splitting. The individual who causes the frustration is seen as all bad, and if pleasurable, then all good."
An interesting observation from "outside" the person who has not "achieved" this perhaps but has it led to reliable ways to help them do that? If not, It's just another judgment and, essentially, a put down.
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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 08:38 AM
  #11
Someone with BPD (or EUPD as it is in the UK) being with someone with NPD seems now an inescapably disastrous combination. I could liken it to one person going out and drinking both coffee and alcohol all day and not expecting to feel very odd indeed after a couple of hours.

I wonder really then if being with someone with NPD for any length of time would start to tip someone relatively well balanced towards very many BPD characteristics. Would a well-balanced person walk away sooner, or would they be 'strong' enough to be more tolerant?)

I was not 'with' the woman with NPD that I met (actually two, one two years ago and one in 1993) but I did fall for them very intensely, with even the one from decades back still having some power over me. Both rejected me, but in the case of the second woman I enjoyed her enough that I pursued a friendship, which had appeared to be working for a couple of months until I realised I was being lied to and messed around.

And that's where my view comes from, I think - it's all very well being intensely aware that NPD begins with trauma, and that you react with compassion to this, but if they are not receptive to constructive criticism, if they can't accept their own wrongdoing, then the experience of trying to help them is going to pull you in indefinitely. I recently watched the excellent but heartbreaking recent film System Crasher, about a traumatised 9-year-old. The ending of that film is a non-ending deliberately, because the apparent hopelessness of this girl's future should provoke kindness, and prick the conscience of parents. The consequences of abuse and trauma are so powerful that there will often never be closure or healing, so this film wants people to be aware of what they create in their self-indulgence.

I think the woman I knew 25 years ago's narcissism has abated to some extent because she ended up having children, a little bit late, with one of them I think having some kind of neurological difference as a likely genetic result (also drug use was something familiar to the woman and her partner, believing themselves Bohemian types above any notion of consequences). Motherhood has almost miraculously taken this woman out of herself, to an extent. She is still very self-involved and has been able to leave them for work abroad many times, despite her own trauma beginning with the same 'abandonment' carried out by her own father. The woman I met two years ago was told at 17 she can't have children. I think that and a couple of other things compounded her early trauma, and has basically made her unreachable. I remain extremely saddened by this. In our last ever conversation, before I realised she has NPD, I defended myself finally from her self-indulgent behaviour and was assertive about her denial of obnoxious acts. As a result she has seemingly now put me in the demon category. I had been very good to her, but now by defending myself, by being assertive - and quite gently too, no swearing, no shouting - I've at least in terms of how her mind works broken the object constancy. And I suppose that's what seems so hopeless, that either you put up with the manipulation and you let her distorted perception rule or you put your foot down and then are discarded.

I've planted a seed though. I've walked away, very sadly, but I've said things she needs to hear. If others say the same things in the years to come maybe she will eventually be hit by awareness and if not overcome with the grief of the lateness of this awareness she might be able to turn the corner.

I'm fully aware that if I did not have sufficient BPD/EUPD traits I might have handled things better. Paradoxically, perhaps, learning that things were not my fault non-stop has helped taper off my emotional irregularity. I feel mentally more or less on top of the situation, knowing not to take what happened personally - because there is no 'personally' for this woman- even if it will still be some time before the sadness has died down.

How many of us though, if they know that certain combinations of personalities or disorders cannot work, would act on that knowledge and give up before there was damage? We go through life not knowing enough about the nature of love, and the potential of love, the way our conception of love evolves, and our ignorance there complicates things further. In all honesty I would still do whatever I could for this woman to enable her to come to the realisations she needs, and I know there is nothing in that for me other than knowing I did good.

But I'd like to think that based on what I now know, by the time I'm 60 I should be in ideal condition for finding someone and responding to them optimumly, just in time to let them tuck me in to my deathbed...
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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 10:52 AM
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsLady View Post
"Individuals who have not achieved object constancy /object permanence still relate to reality using the defensive of splitting. ... They cannot tolerate ambivalence (mixed feelings) hence the term, splitting. The individual who causes the frustration is seen as all bad, and if pleasurable, then all good."
“they can not tolerate ambivalence” - interesting. I do not have NPD, however a shrink in my forest wrote in my notes “she is already very ambivalent about this therapist” ... I could and can “tolerate ambivalence” I believe..

I also think the words “individuals who have not achieved object constancy (etc) are not the optimal words to use and sound judgmental. The little that I have read in the “literature” about different disorders is mostly not to my taste...

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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 11:02 AM
  #13
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“they can not tolerate ambivalence” - interesting. I do not have NPD, however a shrink in my forest wrote in my notes “she is already very ambivalent about this therapist” ... I could and can “tolerate ambivalence” I believe..


I also think the words “individuals who have not achieved object constancy (etc) are not the optimal words to use and sound judgmental. The little that I have read in the “literature” about different disorders is mostly not to my taste...
Psychological ambivalence in its pathological forms is not a problem that's exclusive to any one disorder, it's a common issue with many faces.

These things being written about are not about judging anyone. It's also not an accusation of anything. I also understand that it can sound like it is, especially if you're feeling vulnerable and/or misunderstood. No one likes to be judged harshly.
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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 11:41 AM
  #14
[QUOTE=ID010471;6825399]Someone with BPD (or EUPD as it is in the UK) being with someone with NPD seems now an inescapably disastrous combination. I could liken it to one person going out and drinking both coffee and alcohol all day and not expecting to feel very odd indeed after a couple of hours.

I wonder really then if being with someone with NPD for any length of time would start to tip someone relatively well balanced towards very many BPD characteristics. Would a well-balanced person walk away sooner, or would they be 'strong' enough to be more tolerant?)

I was not 'with' the woman with NPD that I met (actually two, one two years ago and one in 1993) but I did fall for them very intensely, with even the one from decades back still having some power over me. Both rejected me, but in the case of the second woman I enjoyed her enough that I pursued a friendship, which had appeared to be working for a couple of months until I realised I was being lied to and messed around.

And that's where my view comes from, I think - it's all very well being intensely aware that NPD begins with trauma, and that you react with compassion to this, but if they are not receptive to constructive criticism, if they can't accept their own wrongdoing, then the experience of trying to help them is going to pull you in indefinitely. I recently watched the excellent but heartbreaking recent film System Crasher, about a traumatised 9-year-old. The ending of that film is a non-ending deliberately, because the apparent hopelessness of this girl's future should provoke kindness, and prick the conscience of parents. The consequences of abuse and trauma are so powerful that there will often never be closure or healing, so this film wants people to be aware of what they create in their self-indulgence.

I think the woman I knew 25 years ago's narcissism has abated to some extent because she ended up having children, a little bit late, with one of them I think having some kind of neurological difference as a likely genetic result (also drug use was something familiar to the woman and her partner, believing themselves Bohemian types above any notion of consequences). Motherhood has almost miraculously taken this woman out of herself, to an extent. She is still very self-involved and has been able to leave them for work abroad many times, despite her own trauma beginning with the same 'abandonment' carried out by her own father. The woman I met two years ago was told at 17 she can't have children. I think that and a couple of other things compounded her early trauma, and has basically made her unreachable. I remain extremely saddened by this. In our last ever conversation, before I realised she has NPD, I defended myself finally from her self-indulgent behaviour and was assertive about her denial of obnoxious acts. As a result she has seemingly now put me in the demon category. I had been very good to her, but now by defending myself, by being assertive - and quite gently too, no swearing, no shouting - I've at least in terms of how her mind works broken the object constancy. And I suppose that's what seems so hopeless, that either you put up with the manipulation and you let her distorted perception rule or you put your foot down and then are discarded.

I've planted a seed though. I've walked away, very sadly, but I've said things she needs to hear. If others say the same things in the years to come maybe she will eventually be hit by awareness and if not overcome with the grief of the lateness of this awareness she might be able to turn the corner.

I'm fully aware that if I did not have sufficient BPD/EUPD traits I might have handled things better. Paradoxically, perhaps, learning that things were not my fault non-stop has helped taper off my emotional irregularity. I feel mentally more or less on top of the situation, knowing not to take what happened personally - because there is no 'personally' for this woman- even if it will still be some time before the sadness has died down.

How many of us though, if they know that certain combinations of personalities or disorders cannot work, would act on that knowledge and give up before there was damage? We go through life not knowing enough about the nature of love, and the potential of love, the way our conception of love evolves, and our ignorance there complicates things further. In all honesty I would still do whatever I could for this woman to enable her to come to the realisations she needs, and I know there is nothing in that for me other than knowing I did good.

This is a very articulate post I think, describing some of the dynamics that can occur between someone with NPD and someone with BPD or traits of BPD.

''inescapably disasterous combination''... I think both my parents had NPD and one of them had another ''personality disorder''.. I don't think someone with NPD and another person with NPD have a long term relationship as frequently as someone with NPD and someone with BPD or traits of that. (of course, I could easily be wrong. Their marriage did not last long.. at least without him having multiple affairs and marrying someone else )

''knowing that you did good'' - something the step maternal unit said to me.... she very rarely offered ''pearls of wisdom'' but one of the only two pearls of ''wisdom'' she offered me was ''when you look back on your life...'' ... blah blah. Well, mostly when I look back on my ''adult'' life I feel that I mostly tried to do ''good'' to others and not ''bad''... (in fact the same was true when I was a cub but due to severe neglect and abuse I was as clueless in some ways then as the parental units were

Thanks for sharing.

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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM
  #15
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. . .
These things being written about are not about judging anyone. It's also not an accusation of anything. I also understand that it can sound like it is, especially if you're feeling vulnerable and/or misunderstood. No one likes to be judged harshly.
Interesting points. For me, feeling judged harshly is difficult, and can be disruptive/disregulating because of something (else) I think I lack -- or have not "achieved" -- a strong, healthy/realistic sense of self.

The comments about object constancy also point to an inadequacy and, hence, a vulnerability in the person being observed or commented about -- without suggesting or, better, really having something to offer the people so "observed".

To me, for me and the way I seem to be to be internally, a healthy sense of self can/would incorporate both poles of the "split". A constant me as well as a constant object? How to "achieve" that? And which comes first?

How to tolerate ambivalence seems to me the more fundamental issue. Can it be learned or developed if the person doesn't have it already? If so, how?
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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 12:03 PM
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Interesting points. For me, feeling judged harshly is difficult, and can be disruptive/disregulating because of something (else) I think I lack -- or have not "achieved" -- a strong, healthy/realistic sense of self.

The comments about object constancy also point to an inadequacy and, hence, a vulnerability in the person being observed or commented about -- without suggesting or, better, really having something to offer the people so "observed".

To me, for me and the way I seem to be to be internally, a healthy sense of self can/would incorporate both poles of the "split". A constant me as well as a constant object? How to "achieve" that? And which comes first?

How to tolerate ambivalence seems to me the more fundamental issue. Can it be learned or developed if the person doesn't have it already? If so, how?
Interesting post. How to tolerate ambivalence towards anyone? Or towards a particular person? (maybe a ''care provider'' irl?)

And can it be learned or developed? I would think so (I suppose it would depend on each ''case'' though. I don't think people are ''cases'' but the overloaded bureau**** tend to..) (irl)

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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 03:01 PM
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An interesting observation from "outside" the person who has not "achieved" this perhaps but has it led to reliable ways to help them do that? If not, It's just another judgment and, essentially, a put down.
I believe they're talking about a milestone in development. If a child does not develop the skill to speak, it's not a put down. It's an observation.
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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 03:10 PM
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How to tolerate ambivalence seems to me the more fundamental issue. Can it be learned or developed if the person doesn't have it already? If so, how?
I believe it can be learned. I'll have to dig for that info. Have you ever tried the Dialectical Behaviour workbook? There's on specifically for Borderline Disorder.. as well as Anxiety.
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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 04:10 PM
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I believe they're talking about a milestone in development. If a child does not develop the skill to speak, it's not a put down. It's an observation.
I think the question is why has the child not developed the skill to speak. Sometimes a label may be used by a professional who does not have the desire, time or ability to assist someone who has a lot of ''potential'' to ''achieve'' this milestone... or other milestones... whether that is one year later than it ''should be achieved'' or later than that. btw I am not angry with you or anyone here, in case I might sound/read as if I am

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Default Apr 23, 2020 at 04:37 PM
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btw I am not angry with you or anyone here, in case I might sound/read as if I am
Haha 😂 I didn't get that impression from you at all. You're asking good questions.
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