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HD7970GHZ
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Default Feb 07, 2020 at 10:49 AM
  #1
Hi Community,



There are thousands of mental health distress and crisis lines all around the world.

The central mandate is to save lives and provide supports for those in need.

"You are safe to share anything here."
"This is a judgment free zone."

Unfortunately, there is another agenda that is seemingly invisible unless you are victimized by it.


The collection and authorship of legal documents:

Some distress lines record your calls without your consent or knowledge.

Most distress lines write legal record about you.

Many of these call centers are operated by volunteers who have little to no oversight or training.

All of these documents and recordings CAN be linked to your phone!



These things can be subpoenaed and used against you. Everything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.


So much for safe places! Right?!

There are abusers on these lines - and there is nothing stopping them from abusing their power.

Be careful who you trust! There are good distress lines and workers, but you have to trust your gut.


I have been abused on distress lines many times in 6 years.



Question: Why is it there is no way to seek help without legal records being written?




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Default Feb 07, 2020 at 11:25 AM
  #2
I'm sorry you've had a bad experience HD.

I like my local warm / help line for the most part. I've had a couple unhelpful experiences w it, but I felt ok complaining.

That being said, I used to volunteer for their office. I disliked it and my supervisor as well as the director there were....it was clear that had issues as well, and I felt bullied / made fun of by the director. I never said anything to her about it, so there was no chance to resolve it. But I ended up leaving bc it sucked volunteering there.

I was going to volunteer for their help line at one point, and started the process, but it wasn't for me then. I do know that the way they train their volunteers, one thing they do is have novice volunteers listen to phone calls between a hotline volunteer and a caller. They dont (to my knowledge) record calls for this, but the volunteer listens in. Its a learning tool for them. But certainly used to give me an unsettling feeling when I used to need to call. I'm mostly at peace w the idea now when I call.

I'm not sure if it matters to me about my data and info being collected. I've not done anything illegal or wrong. But I can see how it could be unsettling when you think its (and its portrayed as) anonymous. And I admit just bc it doesn't bother me, doesn't mean its ok, Or ok w other people.
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Default Feb 08, 2020 at 01:09 AM
  #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post
Question: Why is it there is no way to seek help without legal records being written?
I know this isn't the answer you are looking for.

The only way to not get documented is to stay away from community and mental health services. Basically 'go it alone'.

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Default Feb 08, 2020 at 02:54 AM
  #4
I had no idea about any of this, but I have never used any of these places, personally. I am very sorry you have had a negative experience, HD. Thanks for posting this and making us aware.

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Default Feb 08, 2020 at 08:58 PM
  #5
they probably like all volunteer lines need data to use to justify funding. they don't and can't run on thin air. there are salaries, equipment, etc. funding can come from grants etc but you still must justify it...hence the need for some sort of data
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Default Feb 08, 2020 at 10:49 PM
  #6
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Originally Posted by The_little_didgee View Post
I know this isn't the answer you are looking for.

The only way to not get documented is to stay away from community and mental health services. Basically 'go it alone'.


I agree with you Little Didgee. If only there was a way to seek help for abuse within Institutions without having legal records written about you. It is heartbreaking. The system is stacked against you from the get go because professionals and organizations can alter and falsify those records in prep for lawsuits, complaints, subpoena's, etc. Because everyone is afraid of litigation, and accountability, they are very careful with legal health record. Apparently it is actually written in policy that therapists HAVE to document session, it is literally a part of their ethical code of conduct... But why?


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Default Feb 09, 2020 at 02:07 AM
  #7
Well if your using a crisis line then I’m assuming your in a crisis.

I know people who have used lines whether voice or text and a police officer is dispatched on a welfare check, that doesn’t mean someone is going to automatically be taken off to the nearest hospital or psych ward. That crisis line could be something that can hold you over until you can call your Pdoc or T.

But yes there is info taken down.. there has to be, as mentioned there needs proof that there is a need for the service and how many people should be staffed to handle calls. Funding is an ongoing struggle.

Lots of people go to forums like PC and others to either reach out for help or just read so they don’t feel alone and they find hope.

I’m just glad that mental health is being talked about and we have access to help if we need it 24/7

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Default Feb 09, 2020 at 02:09 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by ~Christina View Post
Well if your using a crisis line then I’m assuming your in a crisis.

I know people who have used lines whether voice or text and a police officer is dispatched on a welfare check, that doesn’t mean someone is going to automatically be taken off to the nearest hospital or psych ward. That crisis line could be something that can hold you over until you can call your Pdoc or T.

But yes there is info taken down.. there has to be, as mentioned there needs proof that there is a need for the service and how many people should be staffed to handle calls. Funding is an ongoing struggle.

Lots of people go to forums like PC and others to either reach out for help or just read so they don’t feel alone and they find hope.

I’m just glad that mental health is being talked about and we have access to help if we need it 24/7


Hi Christina,


Thank you for your response. You bring up some valid points.

In order to understand why there is an issue with writing legal record, one needs to realize that legal record is the reason why people cannot cross the Canada / USA border. It is the same reason why husbands and wives lose their children in custody battles, it is also the same reason why, in potential litigation, survivors of abuse become victimized due to distress line workers who don't understand the weight of legal record, nor have the necessary training to discern and fully comprehend complex problems such as these. But that doesn't stop them from haphazardly writing legal record about you without any inkling as to the potential ramifications that could result for the person seeking help... If a volunteer can write EVIDENCE against you - despite the fact that you are reaching out for help to a distress line that literally claims to be safe and confidential; I suppose one has to question whether that is in line with their own personal understanding of safe and confidential...

Here is what I am trying to say:


Therapy is inherently unsafe, due to the inherent power imbalances written in policy.


What determines whether or not therapy is a safe place, does not rely on the organization, it relies on the individual who assumes the role of therapist, police officer, distress line worker, doctor, etc...

There are good cops - and bad cops.

There are good psychiatrists - and bad psychiatrists.
There are good therapists - and bad therapists.
There are good distress line workers - and bad distress line workers.


All in all - when we grant power and no accountability to any human being, we grant them the opportunity to abuse with impunity. Unfortunately, this insight is often tossed aside in favor of a facade of do no harm. Those who are victimized by these systems, and are made aware of these inherent problems, are made subject to character smear campaigns, cyber bullying, corruption, threats and intimidation, etc. The powers that be have a vested interest in suppressing these stories because in reality - they have ALOT of dirty laundry.


THAT same power imbalance can be found on distress lines.


That doesn't mean the power will be abused.


It just means it can be.


And the only thing standing in the way of these abuses - is mere choice.


Do you really want to grant that much power to a complete stranger?

Another terrifying thing is when distress lines call police on you. Perhaps this is essential in saving lives - but perhaps you are not aware that police officers often shoot and kill vulnerable sufferers because they (until recently) had little to no training in trauma informed care...


Think about that power imbalance.


I've been threatened with this maliciously because I happened to run into a psychopath who works in healthcare, who personally couldn't handle the fact that I was aware of everything they do behind closed doors.


No accountability. No oversight. Power imbalance. Perfect environment for abuse.


Thanks,
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Default Feb 09, 2020 at 04:59 PM
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_little_didgee View Post
I know this isn't the answer you are looking for.

The only way to not get documented is to stay away from community and mental health services. Basically 'go it alone'.
I would personally not recommend going it alone (not saying that you are recommending it Little Didgee).

But I can see how someone might feel so hurt, and traumatized from bad therapy, that they would just feel so done with and very distrustful of the system. Been there.

I am glad that PC is here for people who need support.
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Default Feb 09, 2020 at 05:16 PM
  #10
HD, what are you doing to heal from the bad things you experienced in the system? And do you need support from us? Hugs.
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Default Feb 10, 2020 at 08:48 PM
  #11
I was just thinking that perhaps having everything written might become a pattern.

If the abuse of the vulnerable is documented overtime - it might present a series of patterns. These patterns might be enough for law enforcement to take notice, in which case they can investigate and perhaps expose wrong doings.


I suppose this is a good thing.

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Default Feb 13, 2020 at 04:36 AM
  #12
HD can you give me an example of what you mean? I dont necessarily mean your own personal business (unless youre comfortable) but I am trying to wrap my head around how they are able to legally document these calls and then use them against you, especially when they are supposed to be anonymous.

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Default Feb 13, 2020 at 01:05 PM
  #13
If you are ever drawn into litigation for any reason, what a complete stranger has written about you can harm you in many ways. And many of these people are volunteers.


Doesn't that scare you?

Perhaps this isn't a problem if everything that is written is accurate. But if there is no oversight, how do you know?


A court of law probably won't believe you if you say something that is written is untrue... Especially when you are mentally ill. This power imbalance is there at all times for any volunteer to exploit. Nothing stands in the way of their abusing power. Doesn't have to be malicious - when someone doesn't like you, they are more likely to write bad things about you.


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"roller coasters not only go up and down - they also go in circles"
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Default Feb 13, 2020 at 08:59 PM
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post
If you are ever drawn into litigation for any reason, what a complete stranger has written about you can harm you in many ways. And many of these people are volunteers.


Doesn't that scare you?

Perhaps this isn't a problem if everything that is written is accurate. But if there is no oversight, how do you know?


A court of law probably won't believe you if you say something that is written is untrue... Especially when you are mentally ill. This power imbalance is there at all times for any volunteer to exploit. Nothing stands in the way of their abusing power. Doesn't have to be malicious - when someone doesn't like you, they are more likely to write bad things about you.


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I had an experience with crisis lines back in 2013-14,> was just home after a cardiac arrest coma & brain injury , they told me to lean on crisis if I needed anything ( the brain injury wiped out all math ,including time ,hours weeks months ,tears meant nothing ) I have multiple sleep disorders and thought I was relearning time and such one of these crisis people ,had the utter gall to tell me ,my sleep disorder wherent possible ,";because they are incomparable with life" ,so out of frustration I told the guy "sont sit on the fence and hint at stuff ,your either telling me i am dead or I am liar ,which one are you going to state for the record " unfortunately for this individual 1. he enraged me 2. I had an auto recorder on my line , within a week of that conversation he was fired, because he didn't report the hole he dug for himself , he couldn't claim innocence when I had it on tape . I have never talked to them again ,and much to there frustration programmed my phone to block them from accessing my line ,so when they wanted to make sure I was still breathing they had to ring the doorbell. Honestly I have a bad habit of surviving ,even my closest friends wanted me to go into a nursing home because they thought I would not be able to survive taking care of myself and relearning all i needed to , it's not always been easy ,but it's 2020 I have survived , they had the same doubts when I had a stroke in 2016 ,of course they were much less verbal about it . That's why I have nothing to do with crisis people ,I know they ultimately safe lives ,when younger I worked on one before getting on the job ,if they are well trained and supervised they can be helpfull to people in various ways . Those that aren't are a public hazard .
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Default Feb 15, 2020 at 03:15 PM
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post
I agree with you Little Didgee. If only there was a way to seek help for abuse within Institutions without having legal records written about you. It is heartbreaking. The system is stacked against you from the get go because professionals and organizations can alter and falsify those records in prep for lawsuits, complaints, subpoena's, etc. Because everyone is afraid of litigation, and accountability, they are very careful with legal health record. Apparently it is actually written in policy that therapists HAVE to document session, it is literally a part of their ethical code of conduct... But why?


Records are used for communication with other clinicians and for the provider to keep track of the treatment(s) they have given.

I don't have much experience with distress lines. I called one once about 20 years ago and found it very uncomfortable discussing my problems with a stranger, so I never used the service again. - Most mental health services I have used were very disappointing.

Records can definitely be inaccurate. Clinicians sometimes get clients mixed up with others or get the totally wrong impression. I read in one discharge summary that I had substance use disorder, which I never ever had. The author also got a few other details wrong. He obviously mixed me up with another patient.

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Default Feb 21, 2020 at 12:18 AM
  #16
again also many times the number of calls etc is used to justify funding for these lines as well. someone has to pay for them and their staffing, equipment etc. as opposed to keeping track of everyone's deep dark calls....I imagine call records are kept to some extent for patterns etc because suicidal intent should not be taken mildly (or any other types of crisis calls) but budgetary needs are also a need as well...especially in this time of mental health budget cuts.
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Default Apr 06, 2020 at 12:25 AM
  #17
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again also many times the number of calls etc is used to justify funding for these lines as well. someone has to pay for them and their staffing, equipment etc. as opposed to keeping track of everyone's deep dark calls....I imagine call records are kept to some extent for patterns etc because suicidal intent should not be taken mildly (or any other types of crisis calls) but budgetary needs are also a need as well...especially in this time of mental health budget cuts.


Hey Resurgam,


You are correct about funding - some crisis / distress lines take part in mandatory questionnaires, surveys and research. Unfortunately, there is little money to be had for these services, despite an ever growing need for them. I wish they had more funding for service like these, including women's shelters - as they often act as distress / crisis lines as well.

I hope everyone is doing okay during this world-wide ordeal.

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Default Apr 06, 2020 at 11:27 AM
  #18
I thought distress and crisis lines are anonymous and unless you tell them your name, I doubt they can use what you share in a court of law. Also anyone can say they are someone they aren’t. I doubt it could bd used against you in litigation if they can’t prove who is on the line.

Stay safe
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Default Apr 06, 2020 at 12:26 PM
  #19
I hope this doesn't dissuade people from using distress center services. The intention of sharing this is to inform others - so that they can make a truly informed decision.


If the distress line worker deems you a danger to yourself, others, or children - they have legal jurisdiction to bypass privacy and contact law enforcement. If you wind up being brought into court someday - a judge can subpoena all logs - as they can compare your phone logs to the calls made to a distress line. I have heard of this happening, thought I am unsure how often.

I hope you are all okay! Please be safe and do not feel scared to reach out to distress lines - they are there for us. Just be mindful that they are strangers - and boundaries are important to set with everyone, even distress line workers...

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Default Apr 07, 2020 at 11:23 AM
  #20

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