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Default Jul 21, 2019 at 09:51 AM
  #61
The last relationship I was in was with an NPD-type mythomaniac. What I regret the most was letting him take up so much real estate in my head. I also learned that my family is full of narcissists. And there is a connection there. There is a technique for dealing with these people, which is called 'grey rock'.

It's been 4 years since that relationship ended and it was at least 2 years I was in full blown recovery.

Focus on what you need to recover, what you can do for yourself. We only have one shot in this world. I think all young adults need to be taught to look out and avoid getting involved with people like this.

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Default Jul 22, 2019 at 08:42 AM
  #62
Hi tecomsin

Thank you for your post! I have googled this page: The Gray Rock Method Of Dealing With A Narcissist When No Contact Isn’t An Option and found many more very intersting articles about the topic, including: Why You Should NEVER Attempt Couples Therapy With A Narcissist

I have been using this grey rock method since about November last year, when I started to understand NPD/mythomania . Unfortunately, we are in the "divorce-process" and the lawyer of my wife is a hyper-feminist-man-hater, so whatever my wife says about me, the lawyer loves as it supports her belief that all man are evil perpetrators and all women victims. The list of accusations what I supposedly done to her is 40 pages, 40 pages or evil lies.

"Grey rock" is sometimes hard to practice and in former times I was always the exact opposite: I thought there MUST be a way to make her understand what she did and does to us all, in some very kind and loving manner... but I always failed and now I know: there was never a chance for me and if I had known earlier, I could save a lot of problems from my children.

Now, I hope for a psychological investigation by the court of the family; I asked for this November last year and still nothing happened. But I was told that the application was received and that we are just waiting for the "next free psychologist" to contact me. Waiting is something very common on Gran Canaria, everything goes so slowly here, that I learned so far.When the psychologist will finally connect with me, the most important thing will be to make him aware of the extreme manipulative talent of my wife. She can make people do the exact opposite of what they wanted to, just by a few smiles and lies that sound so real. She can sing you a love song, then rant at you that you shiver, and than sing a love song to someone else. A perfect actress - but just for her own evil script.

And I was well learned that my mother was a narcissist, I thank God that my father raised my from when I was 6 months. She raised my sister (10 years younger then me, she came back to my father and me what I was 9 years old) and my sister is an extreme narcissist as well. The mother of my first two children is a narcissist and the mother of my wife as well.

Once I learned to understand the patters, it became evident that my narcissistic mother made me vulnerable prey for narcissistic women. And again, I'm so glad that I finally managed to escape and understand the patterns.

Best wishes
David
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Default Jul 22, 2019 at 09:20 AM
  #63
Hi David,

You haven't really escaped until you are free from thoughts about them. I am only trying to make that one point. Not any other one.

Focus on yourself. That is where healing lies.

Take care,

tecomsin

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Default Jul 22, 2019 at 09:36 AM
  #64
Hi tecomsin

Yes, you are absolutely right. "I have managed to make the first steps of the escape" would be a better expression. If I had not children, I would have escaped already, because in my inner world, there is no sentiment for that person anymore, just "indifferent pity", and no way she could access me emotionally - BUT through my children and I understand that is a BIG BUT and means that I might not be able to fully and really escape for the 13 years until my youngest will be adult.
And when my wife will manage to use my children as "Flying Monkeys" it might take even longer and a long way to help them understand the situation.

Best wishes
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Default Jul 22, 2019 at 09:44 AM
  #65
Maybe you can give yourself permission not to think about her for a few minutes and just write about yourself, without any reference to her, what she thinks, how she operates. You are simply all wrapped up beyond what is necessary. Your thoughts are full of her!

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Default Jul 22, 2019 at 10:01 AM
  #66
I wanted to add that 'grey rock' is a technique that still can work if you have to maintain some contact with the other person. It's really about our own psychological well being.

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Default Jul 22, 2019 at 10:10 AM
  #67
Hi tecomsin
Well, here I cannot fully agree. There are times when I have no "toxic thoughts", but when I write in this forum, I write about the toxic situation and if you would think I'm always like that, your conclusion was right. But when I do not write in this forum and do not need to reply to accusations to my lawyer because of the court, I do not care about the toxic past and look to the future.

Most of my time I talk with business-contacts who have nothing to do with my "toxic past", so I think that I can have long periods of time when my thoughts have escaped and I'm free. One day, this will be my only "state of mind".

Last edited by FooZe; Jul 22, 2019 at 03:35 PM.. Reason: administrative edit to bring within guidelines
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Default Jul 22, 2019 at 12:15 PM
  #68
You seem to be in much better mental shape than I was. I ended up hospitalized at the end of our 'relationship'. I was trying to figure him out and didn't look properly after myself. Now I know what the red flags would be and would stay a million miles from such a person.

I wasn't suggesting you reveal personally identifying information like the name of a company and such.

I think people who develop long term relationships with toxic people often have similar kinds of toxicity, not necessarily the same thing but similar types of boundary violations, in their family of origin, so it can be very hard to escape the clutches and build healthy relationships.

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Default Jul 22, 2019 at 03:24 PM
  #69
Hi tecomsin

Well, I may have had enough "history" when I was trapped. I understood from the beginning that I was lied to and I tried to keep an inner distance and not take attacks personally as personal they have been. I had the feeling that I was responsible for that my child would not be just and only in the hands of this person and tried most of the time to improve the situation. I knew she was insane, but I thought that I could find some way to improve that condition through whatever means possible.

Anyway, I was manipulated and miss-used in a dimension I am still learning about, it's not the way that I would think I survived this without severe wounds, but I think I could preserve parts of my integrity and shield them from the attacks, in the first phase by keeping contact to many people and not let myself isolate and later, after the isolation happened, through following the "path of the warrior" described in Castanedas books "Teaching of Don Juan"in respect to his concept of "little tyrant".

Anyway, I could not understand the situation as long as I had the smallest bit of sentiment or "hope" something could be improved. It took me 7 months of physical distance and many months of "my thoughts full of her", and an intense dream, to finally understand what happened and why and start reading about mythomania, NPD and then I started to recapitulate and understand the dimensions of manipulation and abuse even though I thought at that time I would be doing quite good in resisting manipulation.

Lot of ideas about the world in my mind were created around pure fantasy-stories that were told me as if that had really happened. Understanding that nothing of what she ever told has happened in the way she told it, needed some time.
During this period I started to understand my sister and mother. I remembered stories I was told by my mother and think that her mother, as well, was a narcissist, and most of the stories about her life are most likely pure fantasy.

I understood that the mother of my first two children as well is a narcissist, maybe a moderate one, it's nearly 25 years that we separated, so my memory is not always completely clear about some situations, still I can see the patterns.

My life is OK, now, if I should manage to bring my children to safety, it would be perfect. So, yes, I'm much better than you have been, because I was lucky.

My former partner, the one who was split away from me by the last narcissist, is now a good friend again and caught inside a relation with a narcissist as well, so I can give her support and her stories about "her narcissist" help me to deal with my.

I started to write on this forum only because I thought that maybe there is some trick I could use to easy the situation for my children. But this, as I know now, is impossible, the court trials and investigations must be waited upon and their outcome is not at all clear, as it seems that many people, including judges, are not aware of the dimensions of narcissistic abuse.

The society should know much more about this form of abuse and the damage it produces...
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Default Jul 22, 2019 at 08:16 PM
  #70
I also wrote extensively when I was at the protracted end of that relationship with a mythomaniac. It was on a different forum and the thread got more than 200K hits. I was just looking again at what I wrote and can see how misguided I was. It is good you have people in real life who can offer sympathy and understanding.

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Default Jul 23, 2019 at 10:16 AM
  #71
I think the biggest mistake I made, once I realized that my last partner was a mythomaniac, was to underestimate the amount of damage this person could do to me.

So I urge you to act with caution.

Don't expect the courts or psychologists to take your side. It can be very difficult to evaluate these situations from the outside because the mythomaniac is skilled in making other people look and act 'sick'. In my case, I became very ill and ended up in a paranoid psychosis, hospitalized.

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Default Jul 23, 2019 at 11:54 AM
  #72
Hi tecomsin
Were you alone? I can imagine that if I were alone, I would have posted a lot as well. I can imagine that it is very hard, to be all alone after narcissistic abuse. But I was lucky, I had a person who truly loved me (and is still), whom I love, and we did all things together in our "new live", all day long.
You have been miss-guided by other people on the forums you posted on?

Yes, you are right, act with caution. I did not for the first 5 months.
Then I started to realize the real situation and changed my approach.

The damage in terms of money is huge, but I do not think she could bring me into a mentally problematic state.
The worst outcome would be if she would get the full custody and my children would have to suffer even more.
But as she does not bring them to school regularly and the school director already complaint at the police about this and it would become even worse if I was cut out, I do not think that she would be able to keep them for long until official places would intervene and understand the judge's mistake.

I had the feeling that the judge was quite indifferent and not really convinced about either of us. The longer it takes, the more problems she produces, the bigger is the chance that even the blindest judge will see where the problems come from.

But, nothing is for sure, my lawyer, although public, is focused and careful. Her lawyer is a hysterical anti-man-fighter, so much chance that she makes severe mistakes.
In one year, we will know more!
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Default Jul 23, 2019 at 05:04 PM
  #73
Yes I was all alone so I was posting a lot. I received good advise, I just ignored it and plowed ahead.

The advise was to get out of the relationship but I stayed engaged at some level and my mental status continued to deteriorate until I tripped into the depths of a psychosis where I took the phantasies he told me and turned them into a conspiracy theory in my own mind. i look back at what I wrote and can see how misguided I was all the way through, once i realized he was a pathological liar. I can also see my slow descent into madness.

I am a little confused. Who is this person who loves you? Do you live with her? How often do you get to see your young children?

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Default Jul 24, 2019 at 04:58 AM
  #74
Hi tecomsin
The person is a young woman we contacted "as family" to become the nanny of the children. She came to our family when she was 19 years old. But she was no nanny, she did not take money, she lived with us, she cared about the children and housework and in the evening, when the children were asleep, I talked with her. She was a friend from the beginning, just after school, looking for interesting situations and learn from life.
We found that my wife was behaving in a problematic way, were analyzing the situations and looking for ways how she could be helped.

This "pseudo-nanny-friend" found various therapies for my wife and my son, some of them they tried, but nothing really helped. Then my wife made her "our partner" and we started a common sexual relation-ship; just for my wife to have more ways to attack us, trying to make her more narcissist supply.

But, I was not alone anymore in that relation and could speak with the pseudo-nanny-friend about what is going on and start to understand that my wife needs her evil lies to be believed to feel good.
While the pseudo-nanny-friend was caring all day for my children and the household and I was caring for work and money, my wife found herself a new prey, a homeless worker, started a secret relation with him and became extremely hostile - all the time.
Before, there were hours every few days when she was kind, after this secret relation started (that my father detected and I felt but she denied when I asked her), she was either mean or very mean - especially to my children and the pseudo-nanny-friend who at that time should have been seen as "part of the family", but from view of the most people outside the family, she was a nanny. The pseudo.nanny-friend's father lived at the same place and my father as well...

My wife found that I was not believing her brazen lies anymore - so most likely that was the reason why she found herself a new supply, so her plan was easy: kick me and "the nanny" out of "her" home in the way that I will feel guilty forever and pay her a nice life with her new lover.

When she finally managed to kick me out, I thought that "now she will at least be happy again and care for my children" - but she made "shopping trips" with her lover leaving my children alone for hours, letting my oldest daughter do all the work "her nanny" did before - after the school that ended at 16:00.

I started to understand that is was not because I was such a bad man and made her so unhappy that she could not care about the children. She never could care about children and the 1.5 years she had to care about my oldest son, she completely damaged him, who has clear APD and shows "unconscious lying" as well - different to all my other children who were partially raised by someone else (nannies and me).

Anyway, when she kicked me out of my home and chased away from my children and inserted the homeless man to take my position, I took the pseudo-nanny-friend with me and we openly became a couple. To some degree we both survived the narcissistic abuse (she was 3 years with us at that time), while she had a special behavior: in moments of stress, she would simply NOT REACT. She just stood there, like on "stand-by", my wife getting mad, ranting, shouting, and the "pseudo-nanny-friend" resembling a grey rock, completely without reaction or motion. Just waiting until it was over. In the evening she and me talked about the day and analyzed the situations and tried to understand it and find solutions to it. We should have found "pathological lying" faster, we knew she was lying a lot, but I could not believe that ALWAYS.

I think that a pathological liar can only be understood with distance. As long as there is just a tiny bit of sympathy or sentiment for that person, one cannot really believe that.

You write that your ex was a pathological liar as well: the first my wife told me, when I met her, was that she cannot become pregnant, just to become pregnant 2 weeks later. I KNEW she was lying A LOT. When she talked with my friends, afterwards I had to talk with them as well and tell them that everything is different than she told them.

So I KNEW exactly she was lying. BUT admitting to oneself that she was lying about everything, that is as well, love and common plans and simply everything, that it has no limit to "outside people" but that even the most intimate things are nothing but lies, to come to this point I needed 5 months of distance to understand: NOTHING BUT lies and all that only that she receives a SHORT TIME "kick" of being believed. One can find out 5 minutes later it was ******** - she does not care. Only the moment of initial believe from the victim counts for pathological liars.

Without ANY thought about consequences and absolutely NO GUILT, not the slightest bit of self criticism.

But, because I left with my new partner and we had work and plans, we could direct our thoughts to the future and just when we had to deal with the disastrous situation of my children, we had to come back to the toxic thoughts.

I engaged a private detective who documented how my wife neglected my children - still the court did not care about this, but, at least, ordered that our children will be one week with me (and their former "nanny", the children all love and play with the whole day when they are here, everyday with joy and happiness) and one week with their mother and her lover - and that everyone of us has to pay the own expenses by him/herself.

Last February, my older son decided that he does not want to continue to go to school (he is 14 years old), at least not so often, so he decided not to come to me anymore. The court decision he sees as something he and his mother do not need to care about too much.

I tried to make the court aware of it, but after 5 months nothing happened with this so my other children think that court decisions are worth nothing, BUT as the small ones have a lot of fun with us and my big daughter need the week to relax from the family-work, household and child-caring she must do when with her mother, they continue to spend a week here and one there, all three but my oldest son.

So, the "pseudo nanny" has been with my children for more than 4 years now and now we live together with her father and my father in a house, she and my father pay for, as I lost all money I had, due to my mental states a year ago when I would not be able to care about the company and tried to save my children without really understanding the situation. Anyway, money comes and goes, I do not care about that too much.

I'm happy I understood pathological lying, it seems so strange that one does not understand it immediately. But you wrote it as well "once I realized he was a pathological liar": THIS realization is the "enlightenment".

Since that time I think about writing a book or blog or something to help people FIND OUT as long as they are not completely doomed.

It's not really complicated, but admitting this to oneself that the partner is a pathological liar is very complicated, it means admitting to oneself that NOTHING of what s/he said is true - and people WANT TO believe lies!

"Perfect NDP pathological liars", like my wife, excatly tell the lies their audience WANTS to hear and they say it so convincing that if one does not check it against reality, one cannot detect the lie. And my wife always added some kind of "very nasty" stuff each story, so that no one really wants to ask the accused person whether or not he would have said or done such nasty things. One one feel even ashamed of hearing about this... PURE LIES!

She is able to accuse someone looking directly into his/her eyes about the most nasty things, while the "prey" is standing and watching the scene - and believing 100% what my wife says. If the accused one tries to defend himself - it shows he is guilty. If the accused one is NOT defending himself - it shows he is guilty.

I would never believed this if I would not have experienced this, not one time, but thousand times. But making the connection to oneself: "she lies to everyone - that means, she lies to me as well? On no, she loves me, I can feel it, so maybe she doe not always tell me the full truth, but basically she really loves me!" is the problem.

One WANTS to be lied to. And this these narcissists exploit, without any limit.

Best wishes
David
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Default Jul 24, 2019 at 05:42 AM
  #75
Hi tecomsin

I have already used up too much time for this topic for today, but one "finding" I would like to get confirmed by you.

The liar makes you lie "for you two". Something like: "can we say this and that to that person, because it would [be better for us][make less trouble][not waste so much time]" whatever.
That way, you learn to lie "for him/her" and for "your relation ship" towards others and it gives you the feeling of being "especially trusted" because you "lie together".

This way, one thinks to be privileged that the pathological liar would only lie to other people and that was s/he forms a "full trust relation" with you.

The victim lies only for and with the liar and assumes that the liar does this as well, while that way, the liar has the victim under full control and when ever the victim tells something about lies, the liar can play the ball back: "you lie as well, so what?" Then the victim wants to "explain" that s/he lies "just to do good" what the liar takes as accusation that s/he would be bad and fights the victim down to the ground, so the "topic of lying" is hardly ever touched again and the victim just continues to lie when ever the liar wants him/her to.

I found this pattern from my retrospective as extremely common in my relation ships with narcissists. And I wanted to know whether you experienced this as well, as this could be a pattern people could notice "in time": if your partner asks you to (or makes you otherwise) lie towards your relatives and friends about whatever, most likely the relation, it can be a strong sign of narcissistic behavior in your partner, probably pathological lying.

I think pathological lying is most severe and damaging behavior towards partners and especially children, maybe worse than or at least as bad as physical violence. Violence, mental and physical, can be identified by the child, as something hurting and connected with some person and situation, but compulsive lying destroys the reality-perception, the child cannot believe itself anymore, nothing is like it perceives it, the liar is always super-imposing her lies as the real truth on the reality perception of the children - until it is gone and the child becomes a notorious liar as well, not able to tell what is real and what is fantasy...
And concerning the partner, you explained it well: until the partner has to be hospitalized because s/he cannot believe her/his own reality-perception. Maybe that is waiting for the actual narcissistic supply of my wife, but that is not my problem.

OK, enough about this toxic thoughts for Today, I will answer tomorrow in case that there will be some reply! Time to clean my brain from this...
Best wishes
David
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Default Jul 24, 2019 at 10:08 AM
  #76
Hi David,

My ex did not make it a practise to get me to lie with him. I guess our two mythomaniacs are different in that respect.

About what you wrote:
Quote:
It's not really complicated, but admitting this to oneself that the partner is a pathological liar is very complicated, it means admitting to oneself that NOTHING of what s/he said is true - and people WANT TO believe lies!
I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out what he said was true and what was a lie. In retrospect it looks exhausting and tiresome. I think it is going a bit too far to say that I wanted to believe the lies, but of course as long as we have affection for someone we want to believe they have affection for us too, and that they are good, honorable people deep down.

If I had gotten out of this relationship sooner I would have been much less damaged by it.

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Default Jul 24, 2019 at 03:28 PM
  #77
It sounds like you have already gone through a curve-ball:
Quote:
"as I lost all money I had, due to my mental states a year ago when I would not be able to care about the company and tried to save my children without really understanding the situation."
It's really important to protect your mental state. It's easy to get sent down a rabbit hole with these people. I wanted to also say that I wouldn't recommend for this reason writing a blog about it. Your number one priority is to protect yourself and the well being of your children, not any people who may or may not read your blog.

Are you getting any kind of therapy to deal with everything?

I also was over mentalizing, over thinking or over intellectualizing everything and that was my downfall.

I still don't understand what the pseudo-nanny means to you. This is a way to describe someone you love that I am not familiar with.

Do you see yourself as a character in a story?

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Default Jul 25, 2019 at 07:21 AM
  #78
Hi tecomsin
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. "...what he said was true and what was a lie" well that is easy for me, just EVERYTHING is a lie, sure there is always some little bit of truth, but that is not worth looking for, it has no meaning other than to construct lies around.
I'm not getting any therapy but my life is happy and healthy and the "pseudo-nanny-friend" was a description of my now partner, "special other" for the times when she came to us, to make you understand the relationships.

I do not see myself as a character in a story. I have people around me who love me and I have contacts to lot of people who respect me and my ideas and thoughts about the things I do professionally. While I have not escaped fully and completely, I feel free and "I can see the light at the end of the tunnel". I'm looking with great joy to the future and am happy that I can go that way with my loving partner. My self-esteem is not broken down, no one is "individually" manipulating me anymore.

I think I was a part-time character in the stories of my wife, but that lies behind me.

Best wishes
David
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Default Jul 25, 2019 at 07:53 AM
  #79
It sounds like you are in much better shape than I was. What threw me off was the length of your posts in this thread. It showed the kind of obsessive focus I had on what my ex was doing or not doing and what it all meant.

I was referring also to that segment where you refer to your mental state a year ago. These kind of people are truly toxic to be with in an intimate relationship.

Focus on your healing and not on her. That's the best advise I could give.

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Location: Gran Canaria
Posts: 58
5 yr Member
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Default Jul 26, 2019 at 07:04 AM
  #80
Hi Tecomsin
Well, I am a fast writer, write a lot of different things - and try to be precise, but I perfectly understand what you wanted to say. I'm sure I am in a much better state than you have been, most likely because I was not alone. I can imagine very well that if such a relation is ended and one is all alone and feeling guilty, not understandin why what happened, it must be hell. It's not than my narcissit was less destructive than yours, just I was lucky to have a true friend living with me through all of this and we could support each other to not become totally mentally destructed by the abuse. After it was over, we had each other and you have been alone.

I truly can imagine what you went through and I am happy that you escaped from this, maybe I would have ended dead somewhere, as it nearly happened 11 years ago when that abuser called "wife" left me with another man for the first time and took my children with - and I was all alone...
Best wishes
David
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Thanks for this!
tecomsin
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