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Default Oct 14, 2018 at 04:00 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by chihirochild View Post

Hi [chihirochild],

I just wanted to add one additional thing for you to think about this week, as a follow up from our discussion today. I really appreciated your insight about the way in which you were potentially “testing” [the guy I mentioned] (sp?) to see if he really was wanting to be with you, rather than just using you. It could be important for us to explore together for their other ways in which you might test people in your life, consciously but also less than consciously, especially when you are in the midst of your depressive episodes, but also perhaps through withdrawal, avoidance, or anger/frustration towards others. Not sure if that is relevant at all, but just wanted to throw it out there. “Testing” of course implies a wish, but a wish that is hidden and thus perhaps less uncomfortable to experience.

Take care,

[HWMNBN]

If anyone's interested, this is the email I sent in reply:

Hi [HWMNBN],

Thanks for emailing—I really appreciate it. I’m not sure if I ought to respond in detail since different therapists have different amounts of tolerance for out-of-session intellectual/emotional labor and I’m not sure where you stand on that spectrum, so I’ll give it sort of a “first pass” and leave it at that. (I’m not quite brave enough to translate that into a wish, but I can come up with a relevant question: is it all right for me to email you about things outside of the realm of practical/scheduling matters?)

When I try to understand what wish might underlie the various tests I give to people in my life ([the guy I'm involved with], you, my parents, my residency program directors, etc.), I come up with questions rather than wishes. (Perhaps because a question puts someone else in the “hot seat?" Or maybe because it implies someone else bearing witness to the questioner? Unclear.) Some of those questions are: Can you see how much I’ve suffered? (Because, I suppose, suffering = deserving [worthy? in need of?] of care… though I dunno, do people need care in the absence of suffering?) Will you notice and care about that suffering even if I can’t articulate it? Can you recognize what I’ve accomplished despite this damn mental illness? (And, in ironic juxtaposition, will you value me even if I am too disabled to work?) Will you accept me even when I behave badly, even if my actions suggest I don’t value you? Will you accept me even when I am needy, even if those needs are immature or manipulatively expressed or otherwise distasteful? (If so, is this conditional on you feeling like you can fulfill those needs?)

So maybe the underlying wish goes something like, “I want you to see me, accurately and completely, and to value me in spite of that (because of that??), irrespective of what I might offer you in return, and in a way that is specific to me personally rather than a result of any blanket respect you might have for human-dignity-in-general.” Which sounds a hell of a lot like, “I wish you’d love me unconditionally.” Though both of those phrases completely fail to capture my emotional experience of the thing—that gets lost in the rendering, somehow. (And frankly, I can’t imagine what would allow or even motivate one person to respond to another in such a way, at least with any kind of consistency—it seems an un-fulfillable wish, perhaps rightly so due to its utter self-centeredness. I know that’s not the point, but still.)

I think I’ve lost the crux of the thing so I’ll stop before I’m completely adrift in the sea of bull**** intellectualization. I’ll keep mulling it over.

Best,
[chihirochild]
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Default Oct 15, 2018 at 09:26 PM
  #222
So T tonight...we started talking about work and how that's going. Then I told her
Possible trigger:
She told me to work on my artwork. And that I may need a med change. And asked me whether or not I have things in my life which I enjoy. She asked if I had been in contact with my former T. And then it was time to go. Kit.
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Default Oct 15, 2018 at 09:30 PM
  #223
Also I asked her if she thought the hallucination would come back. She said she didn't know. Sigh. Kit
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Default Oct 16, 2018 at 10:56 AM
  #224
Thanks for the hugs. Kit.
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Default Oct 16, 2018 at 01:16 PM
  #225
R: It sounds like you're in love with me.

S:That's what the other T I saw said. I've felt that way since may.



In between that he cared about me and I used the quote from the little prince when the fox tells him why his rose was special.

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Last edited by Lemoncake; Oct 16, 2018 at 01:44 PM..
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Default Oct 16, 2018 at 02:37 PM
  #226
Another gloriously executed argument and further dysfunctional mess floats to the surface.
 
 
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Default Oct 16, 2018 at 06:28 PM
  #227
T yesterday. Background: I'd done my first 5K over the weekend and sent T a brief email Saturday to tell him how I'd done. Wasn't looking for anything more than a "good job!" or "congrats!" in response (if anything at all), but hadn't heard anything back as of Monday morning. And this bothered me a bit (he's always said something within 24 hours, even if it was the weekend--and he's never not replied to an email). Then I was annoyed with myself for caring because it wasn't an important email. I'd planned to address it with him. Then T ended up emailing me back a half hour before our session, which I saw shortly before it. So I was conflicted on whether to bring it up.

T retrieved me, went back and sat down (he was in his Super Mario socks--and other clothing, of course!), usual comment on weather (rainy). T: "So how are you, Miss 5K?" I smiled. I filled him in on how the race had gone, with various details. I then mentioned that I'd been happy with my time, until I saw the results and learned I'd come in last. T said how I should think of it as that I'm competing with myself, not the other runners/walkers. Talked a bunch more about walking and running--somehow skiing ended up in there, too.

Session was going well, he was being very warm with me, and I debated whether to bring up the email. But I knew I had to. I said I hoped I hadn't bothered him with the email, that I just wanted to tell him a positive thing. How I saw he'd just written back this morning and thanks, but I guess I thought he'd have said something sooner, even though I knew it was the weekend. Like I didn't expect anything more than just "good job!" or "congrats!" just a couple words. But since he didn't reply then, wasn't sure if it was OK to send.

T: "I don't really check or reply to emails that often on weekends." Me: "Oh...OK, but I thought..." T: "I mean, sometimes on the weekend, I'll go 12-16 hours without even looking at my email." Me: "oh, OK. See, I always have my email open." T: "I'd find that stressful." Me: "It's just what I do." T: "And I usually will only reply on the weekend to something that's more urgent. Or if it's scheduling, like if you'd emailed to say, 'Session is at 9:30 Monday, right?' to confirm, of course I'd reply to that." Me: "Oh, OK. I don't think I realized that. I guess when I didn't hear back..." T: "You felt ignored?" Me: "Yeah, I guess. Even though it was this really minor positive thing, not like I was in crisis or something. And I also tried to title it so it was obvious that it was positive and not urgent." T: "I read your email much earlier than I responded to it." Me: "Oh."

Talked about some other stuff, then ended up going back to the email. I said I struggled with whether to even bring it up. T: "It sounds like you have a mix of feelings about it, like it bothers you that I didn't reply, but then you feel bad for feeling that way." Me: "Yeah, kinda like that. Like I shouldn't be having those feelings. Because it wasn't even an important email." T: "It's OK to have whatever feelings you have." Me: "Or at least if I'm having those feelings, then I shouldn't share them with you." T: "It's OK to share them with me. I mean, I don't feel guilty." Me: "I wasn't expecting you to." T: "OK."

I said how I'd shared stuff with the race with H, then on Facebook. And how I got a bunch of likes and positive comments on there. How that should have been enough for me. That I had debated whether to share with T as well. T: "Why do you think that wasn't enough for you?" Me: "I don't know...I was awake in the middle of the night last night and thinking...I mean, I know the authority figure thing, but I wonder if it could partly be that you're an athlete?" T: "Do you think you'd have had the same desire to share it with ex-MC?" Me: "I really don't know..."

Me: "Because...I mean, I've pretty much been bad at any athletic endeavor I tried. So it would mean more if you said something positive to me than just some random person. Then again, it's not like you'd probably say, 'Wow, your time sucked!'" T: "Yeah, that would have been pretty rude." Me: "I mean, you wouldn't say something like that to me as your client. Or even probably to your friends or family." So...I don't know. I mean, I'm just thinking the athlete thing because I felt like I gave more weight to 'likes' and comments on my post from people who were runners or otherwise athletic." T: "Well, positive comments from someone who is an expert in the field always mean more." Me: "Yeah."

I talked more about what had led me to email him. How I felt really good after the race about my time, then when I got home and looked up the times and saw I was last (and an 80-year-old woman was in the race), I started to feel bad about myself. And the Facebook comments weren't enough. I didn't share that I was in last place there. T: "Why not? I'm sure they would have been just as supportive then." Me: "I don't know...I guess for some reason I just wanted to hear some kind of affirmation from you. Even though, I mean, I know it was the weekend..." T: "Well, that's one of the limitations of our relationship." Me: "Oh." T: "I'm not your friend." Me: "...I know that...I..."

I said I was concerned he'd be bothered by all my expectations of him. That he'd be annoyed with me that I wanted those things. T: "I'm not annoyed at all." Me: "OK. Because I understand that you need the work-life balance. I think it makes you a better therapist." T: "Thank you." Me: "Because I don't really feel ex-MC had that..." I forget what he said there, but he didn't seem to disagree. Me: "I mean, I understand that you're a father, so you need time with your son, and...uh, you're a husband so you need time with your wife, and..."

In a lighter moment of session, we briefly ended up on topic of contact while he's out of town. T: "Even when I'm traveling, I can pretty much always check email in the mornings unless...say, my phone gets eaten by a snake." Me: "That would be during your trip to the Amazon?" T: "I guess it would take a pretty big snake!" Me: "Then the snake would be ringing and buzzing and stuff..."

Was end of session. Confirmed for Thursday, scheduled for following week. Paid, he stood up and shook my hand (I noticed it was sweatier than usual), saying "Good luck out there!" Me: "Thanks. Uh, you too!"

Felt OK after session, but then started thinking more about the "I'm not your friend" comment and a couple other things. Sent him an email, mentioning that I kept thinking about the "I'm not your friend" comment, since it made me think of ex-T yelling "I can't be your mother or your friend!" And how I was working on trusting him more (to be honest if something I did bothered him) and learning to reassure myself, but that it was a long process, and I just wanted him to bear with me. He replied this morning saying he figured I might have that reaction to his friend comment and apologizing for it. He shared a good insight about how I view relationships. Then some reassurance in the last line of his email: "As a reminder - I'm not going anywhere; you're not 'too much' and I intend on 'bearing with you.'" Which made me tear up.
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Default Oct 16, 2018 at 06:38 PM
  #228
LT
Very nice reply at the end.... but I do understand why he wants space from work/emails on weekends... and I agree with him that I would be super stressed with my email always open.
I also agree that the race should be about you and the fact that YOU did it... that's the big thing.

Sounds like a good session, you at least got things out you needed to and ya the friend limitations suck but it is what all of us have to deal with, sadly

I at least like that he reassured you so nicely.. so try to remember that, and look back on the email often, if you find yourself in a bad or scary place.

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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 06:33 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by DP_2017 View Post
LT
Very nice reply at the end.... but I do understand why he wants space from work/emails on weekends... and I agree with him that I would be super stressed with my email always open.
I also agree that the race should be about you and the fact that YOU did it... that's the big thing.

Sounds like a good session, you at least got things out you needed to and ya the friend limitations suck but it is what all of us have to deal with, sadly

I at least like that he reassured you so nicely.. so try to remember that, and look back on the email often, if you find yourself in a bad or scary place.

Thanks, DP. I do think this will be a good email to look back on when I'm feeling insecure about him.
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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 09:49 AM
  #230
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Thanks, DP. I do think this will be a good email to look back on when I'm feeling insecure about him.
Both of you handled it very well, imo.

"ive been waiting for a man like you to come into my life."

Someone to help you bear it. Someone in your corner, like in a boxing match. Doesnt shield you from the punches, but squirts water in your face and has a towel for you? Idk exactly what they do, but thats how i came to think of my t, someone in MY corner, someone there for me. Someone in my pocket, like my social security card. Not valid for ID, and it doesnt buy you stuff, but it still MEANS something. Mostly that it takes your money and promises you something in the future, but hey. speaking from the future, its priceless.
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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 11:31 AM
  #231
Good Job LT for bringing up something that bothered you and sticking through with the conversation. That can be difficult. And great job too with the 5K. You did it! You completed it! Kit
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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 12:56 PM
  #232
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Both of you handled it very well, imo.

"ive been waiting for a man like you to come into my life."

Someone to help you bear it. Someone in your corner, like in a boxing match. Doesnt shield you from the punches, but squirts water in your face and has a towel for you? Idk exactly what they do, but thats how i came to think of my t, someone in MY corner, someone there for me. Someone in my pocket, like my social security card. Not valid for ID, and it doesnt buy you stuff, but it still MEANS something. Mostly that it takes your money and promises you something in the future, but hey. speaking from the future, its priceless.

Thanks, Una. (Though no thanks for getting that song in my head!) That's an interesting analogy with the boxing...trainer? Coach? Kinda makes some sense. And like the SS card, my T certainly takes my money! But I feel he's worth it, at least for now, even in the moments he upsets me.
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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 12:58 PM
  #233
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Good Job LT for bringing up something that bothered you and sticking through with the conversation. That can be difficult. And great job too with the 5K. You did it! You completed it! Kit

Thanks, Kit, on both of those! I do find I'm doing better talking about difficult stuff with this T, both with the therapeutic relationship and in my outside life. Maybe that's partly about how he is as a T, partly my trusting him and our relationship more, and/or some growth on my part. Most likely a mix of those.
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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 01:03 PM
  #234
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Thanks, Una. (Though no thanks for getting that song in my head!) That's an interesting analogy with the boxing...trainer? Coach? Kinda makes some sense. And like the SS card, my T certainly takes my money! But I feel he's worth it, at least for now, even in the moments he upsets me.
Yeah, i dont have a cadillac or a bmw or a cabin up north, but my ts do.
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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 01:38 PM
  #235
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Yeah, i dont have a cadillac or a bmw or a cabin up north, but my ts do.

I admit I did feel better when my T recently said he drives a Prius. Ex-MC and I think ex-T as well had Audis. And ex-T (her H is a retired T) lives in a (presumably, based on the town) nice house on the water and has a boat.

ETA: When I first started seeing my T, I figured he had some flashy sportscar. But as I've gotten to know him better, the Prius makes sense (especially as he's expressed concerns about the environment).

Last edited by LonesomeTonight; Oct 17, 2018 at 02:00 PM..
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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 01:42 PM
  #236
I went in and he said "you had a good weekend then?" I said yes. He asked what it was like to meet an online friend I hadn't met before. I said we had a fantastic day and told him about the things we had done and that it felt very natural to me.
I said my whole weekend was good and I want to tell him but I don't. He said what's the 'don't'. I sighed and said "why didn't you put hi echos on your email?" I said that it seemed like he couldn't be bothered to respond to my email, in which case he didn't have to. I said I was annoyed with him. He said he maybe was distracted. I said exactly. It's like you quickly wrote it in the commercial break. It was a Sunday night, if you don't want to email back, just don't.
He said he was sorry that his response had annoyed me. I said it's okay.

I said I was worried that he felt weird about me meeting his ex T. I said that email, coupled with something he had said at the end of last session made me wonder if he found it weird, and that I didn't want him to respond weirdly to me talking about it because I would find that difficult.

I talked in general terms about my feelings about the weekend and the people I met. I also talked about anger a bit from a theoretical perspective and he asked whether he makes room for my anger towards him. I said "I don't think I make room for it myself" and then I said "So are you going to tell me what your builder said?"

He said his builder was a bit sketchy about dates, but that it would take two days. He asked if I had thought about it more. I said "of course I have". I said that I would be okay with it but I would need to know exactly where in the house I would be going, I would need there to be no family photos and I would need to know how we would manage his wife arriving home. T said that he was thinking we could use his conservatory (sun room) as it has its own door and there are blinds all around for privacy. He said there are no family photos in there. I said that suited me perfectly and I was pleased with that idea.
My eyes were going funny. I said they often do that when we talk about the relationship. He asked whether there are any feelings attached to it. I said I think it's instead of feelings. He asked me to try and get in touch with the feelings.

I said I feel sad that you're keeping me separate from the house, even though it's what I want. He talked about the two strands, the happy about the arrangement and the sad, and said he wondered if they stem from the same place or thing. I said I think the happy about the arrangement part exists to counterbalance the part that wants to go in his house and see family photos. I think it's actually defensive, to protect me from rejection/exclusion.

I said it's funny because I can let myself be in loving feelings towards him, but I still have trouble being in sadness with him. He asked if I am just allowing myself to be in it now. I nodded. A couple of minutes passed and I smiled, he said what. I said "I just had a fantasy of your wife walking in, and me telling her to f*** off.". I said that suggests there is anger there too, but I suspect it is not at her. He asked if it was at him. I said I don't think it is anything to do with him. I talked a bit about my mother's secrecy, and how I would push her to tell me things I really shouldn't know
Possible trigger:
because I couldn't bear her whispering.

I showed him the results of the PC poll I made and as I did I said offhandedly, "I wrote on this thread I'm not envious of your wife, but I am a little bit envious of your kids. I know I said I wasn't but I am a bit". I notice I said it in a way where we were doing something else so he couldn't really respond to that.

He said "We have 10 minutes left and I notice we haven't spoken about your experience of [my ex T]" He said I might not want to, and that's fine, but he wanted to give me the opportunity if I wanted to. I think I was waiting for his permission.

I told him that I think his ex T is adorable. He laughed. I said he was just a lovely man and he nodded. I told him that I told his ex T that my T had been wondering how he is, and that his ex T said to tell my T that he is good.
I showed him a picture of a few of us sat around talking and laughing. T said "He looks well".

I stood up and he hugged me really strongly. It felt so nice. I said "that felt really good" and he smiled. We said goodbye and off I went.
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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 01:48 PM
  #237
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I admit I did feel better when my T recently said he drives a Prius. Ex-MC (and I think ex-T as well) had Audis. And ex-T (her H is a retired T) lives in a (presumably, based on the town) nice house on the water and has a boat.
My T has a 10 year old Audi.
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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 01:56 PM
  #238
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I admit I did feel better when my T recently said he drives a Prius. Ex-MC (and I think ex-T as well) had Audis. And ex-T (her H is a retired T) lives in a (presumably, based on the town) nice house on the water and has a boat.
My former T drove a Honda. My PDOC drives a Subaru.
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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 03:41 PM
  #239
First, we discussed that I am still constantly scared. T suggested I get blood work done so we can try out some meds, probably SSRIs at first. He went over side effects as well as how it should help and what part it would play in therapy if I decided to go for meds. He also made sure to point out repeatedly that they might not work, given that not everyone with BPD shows improvement of the symptoms the meds should treat. I was fine with that discussion, nothing was really news.

Then we talked about me visiting my grandparents on Monday. We discussed how I could argue back against things they say, rather than just ignore and accept them. How even if they don't agree with something I say in front of them right away, they might discuss it afterwards and it will at least partly stick with them. We talked about this a whole lot, but I don't feel like going into it right now.

Then, we shortly discussed that I'll be gone Friday in a week for job interviews. T mentioned that he'd be gone a week after that, which means I might have two weeks of only one session instead of two. That will kind of suck, but it sounds doable.
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Default Oct 17, 2018 at 08:15 PM
  #240
my T drives a old, beat up Subaru.
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