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Default Aug 22, 2018 at 06:29 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Echos Myron redux View Post
Except he's already shown himself to be incapable of handling this kind of disclosure well. Look what he said in the session LT just wrote up: "Some feelings probably shouldn't be shared". And the flip flopping around on the stone boundary. He is worse than useless at helping with attachment, which is one of LT's main issues. Sorry LT
It's OK, I know my T has some very glaring deficits. And this is why I won't share with him about knowing where he was. He may suspect I did, and hence the questions (or he was just curious), but I don't see any good coming from bringing it up. I'm also puzzled by his seeming completely fine with my looking at a picture of him (obviously about him), whereas holding a stone I associate with him wasn't OK before. And it's OK for me to have this other stone for a vacation, but I assume I'm expected to give it back upon my return (and I will).

I suspect there's some countertransference going on of some sort that's behind him seeming looser on some boundaries lately. Like, based on facial expression/body language he seemed personally affected by my being really emotional Monday about looking at the photos and other attachment stuff and seemed extra caring and reassuring (tone of voice, how he looked at me, etc.). And he's not usually so much like that (that was ex-MC's thing!) But I doubt he's aware of any sort of CT or even that his boundaries have been inconsistent.

As he'll often say that I know his email policy, which...I sort of do, and which he seems to think is very clear, when actually it's pretty vague, at least in practice. And how he says he'll let me know if I'm anywhere close to approaching too much contact or otherwise crossing some line, which I think he feels should be reassuring to me. But it isn't really. I mean, sure, I prefer that to ex-MC and ex-T waiting until it was already too much and they seemed angry at me about it (with no earlier warning, even when I checked in with them). But I still fear even an early warning from current T, since then it will feel like I've been "bad" or something (hello, stuff from childhood!) Or how he only allows texts for scheduling, and months ago I sent him a text about scheduling an extra session and included info on why, and he called that "a little intrusive" because it was at 8 p.m. and wasn't simply "Do you have any openings tomorrow?" (I usually just email him about scheduling now, as he doesn't consider email intrusive.)

I'll stop rambling now...Guess I'm just trying to say that I am painfully aware of many of his faults, but there are other ways in which he's really helping me. I suppose we'll see how today goes...
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Default Aug 22, 2018 at 06:39 AM
  #22
This write up made me feel like I got therapy vicariously. He was really clear with the reasons behind limits. He isn't worried for himself that you will love him the way you did ex MC, but he is worried for your wellbeing in selecting relationships in which to entrust your love, in which the other person is legally and ethically prohibited from returning the feeling ( at least out loud or with actions). I makes me think of your H, who is available to return love and be two-sided with the relationship. Having a divorce behind me might make me cynical, but there is something really pure about loving the T with all the limits, and something messy and exasperating about real life love( my T calls it a three-legged race to stay married. Your T gave you the stone gladly this time. He is wanting to give you everything and more- as long as it is good for you, it seems.

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Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight View Post
T yesterday. Went back and sat down. He asked how I'd done with him being out for a few days. I said I did OK. He said he was surprised I didn't email, that he thought at the very least I'd send something saying, "Just making sure we're still on for Monday," like to keep the connection. I said that I'd set a boundary for myself that I wasn't going to email him while he was out of town, unless something really bad happened, like H threw me out of the house. T: "That would have been pretty bad. It's good you were able to keep to that." Me: "Thanks."

Then we had a very awkward (for me) conversation because...I did know where he was (public event, I'd looked it up out of curiosity, but last time I'd told him that he was uncomfortable that I knew where he was. So I didn't want to tell him.). T: "What made you think I was out of town?" Me: "I don't know, I thought you said you'd be away from the office, so I just assumed." T: "I think I said I'd be out of the office." Me: "OK, but I figured you meant you were going out of town." T: "Rather than a stay-cation? Would you have been bothered if, say, you thought I was here and seeing clients but not you?" Me: "Well, I didn't really think that. And I think it was more the idea that you were away." T: "What do you mean?" Me: "Well, I worry about people more when they travel, even though stuff can happen right at home. And it felt like then you wouldn't be accessible." T: "Oh OK, like I couldn't come to office if you needed to see me." Me: "Yes, just felt more distant, I guess."

Talked about upcoming beach trip (next week) with my parents/H/D, some stuff about my mom. Like why it's stressful for me being around her for days, how I feel like I have to put on an act for her (more detail than that).

I then said how I'd been talking to a friend earlier about therapy with him, saying some things I did, and she commented that it seemed I was taking care of him, like trying to give him impression that I was doing better than I was. And I'd realized it was just like with my mom, that it was like I was putting on an act for her at times, trying to hide the OCD, anxiety, etc. T: "And you think you're hiding how you're really doing with me?" Me: "At times, yeah, maybe.
Possible trigger:

T: "OK, so what do you mean?" Me: "Well, it's like...when you were away. You said how I hadn't emailed you, so you felt I'd coped well with that." T: "It seemed like you did." Me: "The thing is...I mean, I did think about you sometimes and got emotional a few times." T: "That's OK." Me: "Yeah, but what I did to get through it, like so I didn't feel like I lost the connection...I'm afraid to say this." T: "It's OK, what is it?" Me: "I guess, I...I looked at a photo of you online a few times, like to make me feel better. It was a public photo, but...I'm sorry if that's weird." I dissolved into sobs. T: "It's OK." Me: "But I feel like you felt weird about the stone representing you, and obviously a picture represents you, so..." T (in very caring voice): "It's OK. You did nothing wrong." Me: "OK. thanks."

I said something regarding attachment, maybe wanting secure attachment with him? I forget. T (sounding a bit frustrated): "I've told you that I'd never abandon you. I told you we'd talk about anything that came up, that I'd never just show you the door. And we've worked through some conflicts already. And I've told you I'll be honest with you. I'm not sure what else you're looking for to make you feel secure?" Me (though tears): "I don't know. I think, really, it's that...I was starting to feel secure with you. And then I kind of freaked out." T: "OK."

I said how ex-MC had said many of those things, too, and then look how things turned out. I said something about feeling too much for ex-MC. T said he didn't think it was that I felt it, but (referring to the "I love you"), "Some feelings probably shouldn't be shared." More tears. Me: "But the thing is, I'd told him that before, so I don't understand why it was OK then but not later." T: "Maybe it was *because* you'd told him before. That the trajectory was continuing in a certain direction." Me: "Oh."

I said I knew he was worried about stuff with ex-MC happening with him, so I worried about telling him anything I felt that seemed in that direction. T said he wasn't worried so much about himself but for me, that he wants me to have strong relationships outside of therapy, with others and with myself. And there are limits to the relationship with him. I said I knew, the one-sidedness of it, the boundaries. He said that I couldn't get what I felt I needed from the relationship with him, so I'd just end up being disappointed. I said I understood the boundaries and tried to follow them, and he said I'd been good at respecting his boundaries, that what he was saying wasn't about that, but my well-being.

In the midst of being really upset, while trying to push my recently cut hair out of my face again, I said, "I have no idea what's going on with my hair!" T: "That part's too short." Me: "Yeah." T: "You need like another half inch." Me: "Exactly." T: "They have barrettes and things for that, to clip it back. Your daughter probably has some, maybe with sparkles." Me: "Yeah, maybe I could wear a Disney Princess one." T: "There you go."

Back to fear of abandonment stuff. T: "It seems you think that people abandoning you is something you have no control over. It's like you're walking around, expecting a meteor to fall from the sky." Me: "Yeah, I guess it's sort of like that. Or worrying about being hit by lightning, seeing that there's a storm."

T said it feels like I'm overly sensitive to what people think of me and try to please them. He said for example, if he'd made some critical comment about my shirt, I'd likely never wear it again there. I said was probably true. T: "So what if the situation was reversed. Say you really hate these socks," he said, pointing at his sock. Me: "Are those roses?" T, pulling up pant leg, "Yes. But say you hated them and told me you hated them. Would you expect me not to wear them again? And would you be offended if I wore them to session?" Me: "No. I mean, maybe if they were the only socks you wore from now on." T: "True." Me: "Now you're going to wear them every time. Oh, maybe I should get a pair and wear them." T smiled.

Me (noticing time): "I was actually going to ask you for the stone today so that I didn't have to worry about it on Friday, but I'm afraid to now." T: "Would you feel better taking it now?" Me: "I guess. I mean, I could take it and just put it in my luggage and not touch it till I'm going out of town or anything." T: "It's fine to take it now. Do you know what you want?" Me: "Yeah, I noticed this stone in sand tray the other day and liked it." T: "Oh, that little guy? Sure, you can take that. It's a river rock, nice and smooth." Me: "Yeah, if you haven't figured it out, I like the smooth ones. Wait, do other clients play with it because it's on the sand tray?" T: "No, nobody plays with that." Me: "OK." I grabbed it and stashed it in my purse.

We were almost over time. T asked if I was OK with what we'd talked about. I said I wasn't sure, but that I'd try not to reach out. T: "You know my email policy." Me: "Yes, I know, I'm sorry." T (in very caring voice): "It's OK, you don't have to be sorry." Me: "OK." Confirmed Friday, and I was going to be out of town most of the next week, so didn't schedule next one.

Went over to pay, and I commented on how I hoped to see him the Friday I got back from vacation. T: "Oh...I forgot to tell you, I'm out that Thursday and Friday, plus Monday (Labor Day)." I started crying again. Me: "I'm sorry, I'll get myself back together." T: "It's OK. Sorry about the timing." Me: "Is it possible to maybe schedule a phone call when I'm away, since, I'll be away?" (He'd said before he prefers in person but would consider phone if someone is out of town). T said yes. After I signed the credit card slip, I almost put his pen in my purse without thinking, saying, "Oh, I totally almost just took your pen. I use the same kind." T: "That would have been OK. I love the gel ink." Me: "Me too." He shook my hand without saying anything, like maybe he didn't know what to say, then as I was about to walk out, he said, "Take care." Me: "You, too." I tried to hold it together while walking through waiting room, down elevator, outside to my car, and I mostly succeeded, then started crying again once in the car.

Ended up texting him, asking if he had any openings Tues. or Wed. He said he had time Wed. I said maybe I'd email him instead. Sent him long email, asking him for longer paid response, then thinking better of it, said if he still had Wed., maybe we should meet then instead. He replied, saying I'd wisely said was too much to address in email, that he'd want to have a full discussion about it, so he'd see me tomorrow at 12:30 (and I'm keeping Friday, too, for pre-vacation stuff).

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Default Aug 22, 2018 at 06:58 AM
  #23
When I sat down, he asked me how I am doing, which he doesnt normally. I told him I hadn't been sleeping well. He asked if I knew why. I said I had been awake a lot on Sunday night thinking about what I had told him via email. I said I was scared to talk to him about it because for some reason I feel he will judge me, even though really I know he won't. I said I think it's because my Dad judged both me and my mother for this and blamed my mother for my being this way. Even though I suspect we were both this way for the same reason.
Possible trigger:


I said this, and other things, including me getting a bit drunk at my dad's house on Sunday, reminded/remind my Dad of my Mum. I said my whole life I felt like he saw me as a remnant of a marriage he'd rather forget.

I said that I adopted his frustration with her, and found her unacceptable as he did. But I am similar to my mother in some ways. So I began to find these parts of myself unacceptable and this was a big part of the self-loathing I have often struggled with. I have found it hard to accept the parts of myself that are similar to my mother.

I said I feel like I have blamed her for a lot of stuff. T said he feels like he can look at the situation without the need for blame and just sees sadness on all sides. I said
Possible trigger:


Possible trigger:


He asked how I was. I said I feel like I want reassurance from you. He said what kind of reassurance? I said it feels late in the session to say it. (time was up) he said never mind the time, let's make sure we finish properly. I said I want to ask you if you still love me. He said "Yes! I have been sat here feeling protective of you" (he said some more that I can't remember) and he put his hand on his heart. I said it's difficult work and he said he knows, he can feel how difficult it is. He says he feels like I am trying to overcome the message (he said he wanted to say spell but it felt a bit Harry Potter) that had been put on me that I mustn't talk about it.

We stood up and hugged and as I left he said something like "take good care".
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Default Aug 22, 2018 at 07:40 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by SalingerEsme View Post
...there is something really pure about loving the T with all the limits, and something messy and exasperating about real life love...
But perhaps we need both kinds?

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Default Aug 22, 2018 at 10:57 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by SalingerEsme View Post
This write up made me feel like I got therapy vicariously. He was really clear with the reasons behind limits. He isn't worried for himself that you will love him the way you did ex MC, but he is worried for your wellbeing in selecting relationships in which to entrust your love, in which the other person is legally and ethically prohibited from returning the feeling ( at least out loud or with actions). I makes me think of your H, who is available to return love and be two-sided with the relationship. Having a divorce behind me might make me cynical, but there is something really pure about loving the T with all the limits, and something messy and exasperating about real life love( my T calls it a three-legged race to stay married. Your T gave you the stone gladly this time. He is wanting to give you everything and more- as long as it is good for you, it seems.

I do feel he's mainly looking out for my wellbeing. It's just difficult because, obviously, I'm already attached to him to some degree. I think he's now realizing that he can't prevent the attachment (even if he'd initially hoped to) but is just trying to deal with it as best he can, while trying not to encourage more. I think the stone is him realizing now (unlike before) that it might be something I just need right now, but, ideally, won't always want/need. I think he's also clearly not used to dealing with clients like me, so he thinks one thing is the correct way to go, then I end up really upset by it, which confuses him. (I still think of when he was initially saying the whole "creepy" thing about the first stone, if it was about him, and I started crying, and he was like, "Why are you reacting that way?") But I feel he's learning and adapting. Is he the best T to work with on attachment? No. But...I still think he's helping me. I mean, I *don't want* to be attached to a T forever, ideally. Maybe ultimately have him there if I need help/support from time to time, but not like desperately attached to him, say, 10 years from now. But as I said to him a while ago, I need him to meet me where I am, not where he wishes I was.


I find the three-legged race analogy to be an interesting one! And can see a bit of truth in there.
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Default Aug 22, 2018 at 12:06 PM
  #26
T and I talked about an issue that I needed help with. He helped me sort out some things. I brought up the issue that I am stuck on, but we didn't talk about it much. I am trying to not stress about it as it won't help anyway. I have scheduled two sessions a week because I am anxious about upcoming events. This includes issues at work and the fact that T is going on a month-long vacation. He told me that I can email him while he is gone, and I am thankful for that. I'm not sure that I actually need the extra sessions. However, it helps the most when I am in between sessions. It helps me feel safe that if something really bad happens, that I already have a few sessions scheduled. So, it's like just having the sessions available that helps me stay calm. It helps to know that even if people at work don't understand me, that I do have someone who does.
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Default Aug 22, 2018 at 07:25 PM
  #27
I told T that I am a people pleaser and whatever task she sets I will do to make her happy. She asked if I was telling her that so that she could set something for me to do and I would do it.

I told her no, I was telling her that because I have done this before and the focus becomes on pleasing the person and not on getting better. That I really wish to work at this and change and not just pretend to, to make someone happy.
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Default Aug 22, 2018 at 10:24 PM
  #28
Our session today mostly revolved around getting answers to some of my personal questions about T which ended up being a big relief.

In a moment of craziness during our 2-week break I had emailed T and told him of an online photo I had seen of him with his mom and sister. In the photo they look happy and loving and there’s a caption that reads “Happy Mother’s Day to a mom who keeps on giving.” I’m estranged from my mom, so I guess I was noticing the contrast. I immediately regretted telling him about finding the photo even though he had responded positively. I was worried he’d be upset or annoyed or creeped out but he wasn’t at all and that was a huge relief. He said everyone looks up their therapist and sort of laughed (in a kind way) saying that many people eventually tell their therapist about it. He completely normalized it saying that lots of people even look up their T’s address. I was worried he’d think I was a crazy stalker and immediately said I have no desire to see him outside our session and he calmly replied, “I know, I know.” Interestingly, he said he couldn’t find the photo even though it had only taken me about 5 minutes to find and was on his sister’s FB page. He apparently doesn’t use FB. I didn’t tell him about the random list of personal things I’ve discovered about him through my online search, but maybe it’ll come out eventually. I had been worried because he discloses very little about himself so I thought he might be upset that I found this teensy bit of personal information about him. But he said it’s ok for me to bring up any bit of personal info I find about him although he’s uncomfortable disclosing info because he doesn’t want to make therapy about him. I tend to be extremely slow to trust, so maybe he was just glad I was taking steps in that direction. In the course of our discussion he briefly mentioned having a daughter (of course I already knew he has 2) and talked about some difficulties he’s had with his mom. Just mentioning these things made him seem more human and perhaps ever so slightly evened out the balance of power.

We had an issue a few months ago where he did not answer my question about whether or not he has a pet. That came up again when talking about the online photo I found and I used that as an example about how he seems super private and not willing to share seemingly simple information about himself. He said it’s complicated and I said it’s not really. I mean you have a pet or you don’t and it really seemed like you were trying hard to beat around the bush. He said he didn’t mean to seem like he was playing games with me and went on to say he’s a dog person and had a dog that recently died (of course I then felt bad) and that he currently has a cat at his house but it’s not his. So I guess it was actually complicated! We had a whole discussion about how he believes every question has deeper meaning and I said I didn’t think so. He disagreed and said he thinks a cigar is never just a cigar. I still don’t really agree. Lastly, I asked him if I were to ask him where he will be going at the end of September would he tell me? He leaned forward and said he would always answer any question I had for him if I told him that I really wanted to know. That was really nice. I told him I didn’t need to know where he was going.

I pretty much always struggle to go to therapy each week and I think today’s session made me feel a little bit closer to him. Hopefully I can hang on to this feeling and hopefully it will be a little easier for me to go next week.
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Default Aug 23, 2018 at 01:57 AM
  #29
My session was a complete waste of time. I was floaty and disconnected the whole time, none of it felt real at all. Much of the time I sat staring at the wall.
Every now and then I tried to lunge myself out of it, only to fall back into nothing seconds later.
Then it was time to leave.
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Default Aug 23, 2018 at 11:11 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Echos Myron redux View Post
He asked how I was. I said I feel like I want reassurance from you. He said what kind of reassurance? I said it feels late in the session to say it. (time was up) he said never mind the time, let's make sure we finish properly. I said I want to ask you if you still love me. He said "Yes! I have been sat here feeling protective of you" (he said some more that I can't remember) and he put his hand on his heart. I said it's difficult work and he said he knows, he can feel how difficult it is. He says he feels like I am trying to overcome the message (he said he wanted to say spell but it felt a bit Harry Potter) that had been put on me that I mustn't talk about it.

We stood up and hugged and as I left he said something like "take good care".
Echos you were so brave in session, thank you for sharing this. I love how he reacted to your question. I think that's really rare in a T, to be so open with a client to how they feel.

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Default Aug 23, 2018 at 11:31 AM
  #31
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Echos you were so brave in session, thank you for sharing this. I love how he reacted to your question. I think that's really rare in a T, to be so open with a client to how they feel.

Thanks Lemoncake. Yeah he's courageous too i think. In fact I think that he models telling me how he feels encourages me to open up too. Feels safe because I can trust him to be real. Appreciate the hugs
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Default Aug 23, 2018 at 11:51 AM
  #32
T yesterday—extra session to deal with stuff from Monday. Went back and sat down. T had printed a copy of my email from Monday night--I said I had a copy, too. He asked where I wanted to start. I said I probably should have figured that out before session. He suggested we start with the ex-MC part, and I said OK.

I'd said in email how it felt like Monday, T had said I'd done something wrong in telling ex-MC that I loved him, that I felt like he was saying that what happened with him was all my fault. T: "The only mistake you made was sharing something like that and not being prepared for him to have a big reaction to it." Me: "Um..." T: "I'm trying to help you understand how people can react to you. That in choosing to tell someone something, you need to understand how it can affect them and how they could react." Me: "OK...I get that, but...it still seems like you're trying to say it's all my fault what happened. When I don't think it was just me. I think it was some stuff with ex-MC, too."

T said he wasn't trying to assign blame, that some of ex-MC's inconsistent boundaries likely contributed. He mentioned ex-MC's excessive self-disclosure. T: "It probably felt to you that he was letting you into his world." Me: "Yes, it kind of did. I don't know that he realizes the effect it had on me or could have on other clients." T: "He probably doesn't." Me: "He'd say it's just who he is as a therapist."

I said I couldn't believe that I was the first client to tell him I loved him. T: "And Ex-MC is a lovable sort of guy, very warm and sensitive and caring. He's squishy." Me: "Yeah, it's why I said a stuffed animal made sense to represent him."

Me: "When you said boundaries, I assumed you meant because he was our marriage counselor." T: "Well, there's that, too. It complicated things." Me: "I kind of feel like...the way he was inconsistent, that he was sometimes willing to talk to me on phone but other times not, that he would sometimes reply to email sometimes not, that he would say we could talk about anything in session sometimes, then other times say we had to stick to marriage counseling stuff--it felt like that contributed to my insecure attachment." T: "Hm, like intermittent reinforcement. That makes sense." Me: "Yes, like sometimes he gave me what I wanted so I kept pushing him to get it, to get more of it."

I said sometimes I wished that I could have just been working with ex-MC, so that we could have fully addressed it. T: "Well, but that could have had its own set of problems. Then you would just be a man and a woman sitting in a room talking, with no H there." Me (thinking...isn't that what I'm doing right now with you?): "True."

Me: “Maybe I just define love differently, like I have a lower threshold. Where some people would think it means I’d take a bullet for them.” T: “That could be. Maybe for you it could be how someone makes you feel when you’re with them, for example.” Me: "Yes. So my saying love might seem scary to someone because of what they think it means. Which is different from what I mean. when I say it." Mentioned how a guy had dumped me after I said I loved him, and how I'd vowed never t say it first in relationship after that. And with people since then, including H, if I started feeling love toward them, it was like "Oh no, what if they can tell, what if they can figure it out." I forget what T said to that.

Said I wanted to cover some other topics in email too. Brought up the ever-present original stone, how his reaction to that still continued to affect me. I said it wasn't so much that I wanted an apology for what he said, I just wanted him to really understand why it upset me. Like when he called it "10% creepy" and compared it to digging through a celebrity's trash. T: "But remember, I said that was on the other end of the spectrum." Me: "But I don't want to be on that spectrum at all!"

I asked why he was OK giving me the stone now for the trip--was it because it was for a set period of time? T: "Maybe that's part of it, but it's really more that I know you better now and I think I understand what's going on with it."

Then I made the stupid decision to bring up looking at his photo. Me: "What I don't understand is why you were bothered by the stone when you thought it was about you, but then you seemed totally fine with my looking at your photo, which is very clearly about you. It's not like I was looking at a photo of the building." T: "Well, I wouldn't say I was totally fine with it. Maybe 5% bothered." Me (starting to cry): "What? I thought you were OK with it?" T: "But that's such a tiny amount. It's barely anything at all. I don't see why it's so upsetting." Me: "Because I don't want it to be any percent. I just want you to be OK with it."

T: "I'm not immune to you, LT." Me: "What?" T: "Things you say and do affect me. I'm not going to hide that. I'm trying to teach you how other people can be affected by what you choose to share. So that maybe you'll think more carefully about it before you share with them." Me: "...Are you trying to say if something like this happens in the future, I shouldn't share it with you?" T: "Well, you should really think about the effect it could have." Me: "But wouldn't something like that have therapeutic value? Like, say, why I was looking at your photo one week but not another?" T: "I'm just saying to think about what you share." Me: "And I know you're trying to get me to know how affect other people...but I'm not going to tell my friend that I missed her and looked at her photo. Well, possibly a family member, but...I think that's kind of normal."

I started crying, "I just have trouble internalizing things, internalizing other people's feelings for me. Not just with you, with anyone. So I need the outside things sometimes. And I don't want to have to hide that." I forget what T said to that. I asked if it would bother him if I went back and read some of his emails to me. He said no, that he wrote emails to clients with the thought that they might revisit them, so that's fine. Me: "OK, that's part of why I initially wanted you to reply to Monday's email, so I'd have it to look at. But then I realized I was sort of afraid of how you'd reply, and we'd only have Friday before the break, so..." T: "I think it's better we met. I've said some fairly harsh things today, and it's better that I'm able to see your reactions to those." Me: "Yes, some of this would have been even more difficult over email."

Me: "I know we're near the end, but there's one other thing I want to bring up that wasn't in the email but that I thought about from Monday." T: “Is this going to be a uncomfortable place to end session?" Me: "I don’t think so, I just want to clarify something, an impression I got." T: "OK." Me: "So when we were talking about secure attachment, you were listing various things you'd said, like told me you wouldn't abandon me, worked through conflicts with me, said that you'd tell me early on if something I did bothered you. And it sort of felt like...I got the sense that you were frustrated with me. But it's not easy, if I've had attachment issues my whole life, to just hear those things and be like, Oh, OK, everything's fine now. So...are you frustrated with me?"

T (in a caring voice): “I’m not frustrated with you, LT.” Me: "OK, thanks." T: "As you know, I can be rather intense at times." Me: "Yes." T: "When I was saying those things to you, it's because I really hate that you have to struggle with the attachment, I don't want you to be suffering." Me: "Oh. OK. Thanks."

T: "I know some of this has been difficult for you today." Me: "Yes." T: "You often seem to react more strongly than I expect you to. So I'll sometimes try to dial back the level of intensity or feedback for you." Me: "I appreciate that." T: "Sometimes I think maybe you need to tell me what you want from a topic, what you're looking for from me." Me: "OK." T: "But I am going to give feedback. Because I want to help learn to listen to and trust your internal voice first, rather than someone else's." I think I started crying here--or said something that prompted his next comment.

T: “Maybe the question should be: Do you think you can handle me?” Me: "...I think so." T: "OK. But just think about it." Me: "I will. But this makes me think of a recent forum post. Where someone had just started seeing a new T, and they were pretty harsh to them, but then they felt it was helping. And I replied to it, talking about you, saying how you say some harsh things to me as well. But that I wonder if I need to hear those harsh things and experience the emotions that come with them, in order to really get at those emotions and work on them. Like shame, for example. And I feel like I'm making progress with you, even though it's been painful at times. But I think maybe I have to do with the pain to move forward. Does that make sense?" T: "That makes a lot of sense." Me: "OK."

Confirmed Friday. T said would be fine to schedule half-hour call while I'm on vacation next week, that I could just text or email about a time. Went over and paid. Usually he stays seated while holding out his hand to me, but this time he stood up like on other side of his chair from me then was walking around to me, and I wasn’t sure if he’d forgotten the handshake and wondered why I wasn’t leaving or if he was going to shake it standing up. To break the awkwardness, I just held out my hand, and he shook it. Said he’d see me Friday, I said I’d see him then and “thanks for the extra session, though I know this is your job.” He smiled. (I was sort of hoping for a "take care," but oh well.)
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Default Aug 24, 2018 at 12:42 AM
  #33
I shared a feeling I never thought I would. Once again he’s proved to be safe and trusted. I don’t know how many more times he’s going to have to do that before I can express myself and let it all out. I need it, we know it, yet there’s still something shutting me down when I get close.
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Default Aug 24, 2018 at 06:15 AM
  #34
I don't like your T, LT. He's wishy-washy. You should be allowed to speak freely without fear of his petty reservations.

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Default Aug 24, 2018 at 07:02 AM
  #35
Your T seems to be trying to tailor therapy just for you. He is trying to empower you in a very particular way, that same message as Andi McDowell to James Spader in Sex Lies and Videotape . You affect me, you affect MC with your words, you can't say things that have no effect on others and the feelings of others about you. People aren't immune to you- and that is good and bad. I think about the bond between you and your T in terms of children- how they are differently affected by words and how you have to be. And how he is there telling you hey LT, if you tell me you love me, then I am going to react huge bc that is a huge statement. I don't know if that s right.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight View Post
T yesterday—extra session to deal with stuff from Monday. Went back and sat down. T had printed a copy of my email from Monday night--I said I had a copy, too. He asked where I wanted to start. I said I probably should have figured that out before session. He suggested we start with the ex-MC part, and I said OK.

I'd said in email how it felt like Monday, T had said I'd done something wrong in telling ex-MC that I loved him, that I felt like he was saying that what happened with him was all my fault. T: "The only mistake you made was sharing something like that and not being prepared for him to have a big reaction to it." Me: "Um..." T: "I'm trying to help you understand how people can react to you. That in choosing to tell someone something, you need to understand how it can affect them and how they could react." Me: "OK...I get that, but...it still seems like you're trying to say it's all my fault what happened. When I don't think it was just me. I think it was some stuff with ex-MC, too."

T said he wasn't trying to assign blame, that some of ex-MC's inconsistent boundaries likely contributed. He mentioned ex-MC's excessive self-disclosure. T: "It probably felt to you that he was letting you into his world." Me: "Yes, it kind of did. I don't know that he realizes the effect it had on me or could have on other clients." T: "He probably doesn't." Me: "He'd say it's just who he is as a therapist."

I said I couldn't believe that I was the first client to tell him I loved him. T: "And Ex-MC is a lovable sort of guy, very warm and sensitive and caring. He's squishy." Me: "Yeah, it's why I said a stuffed animal made sense to represent him."

Me: "When you said boundaries, I assumed you meant because he was our marriage counselor." T: "Well, there's that, too. It complicated things." Me: "I kind of feel like...the way he was inconsistent, that he was sometimes willing to talk to me on phone but other times not, that he would sometimes reply to email sometimes not, that he would say we could talk about anything in session sometimes, then other times say we had to stick to marriage counseling stuff--it felt like that contributed to my insecure attachment." T: "Hm, like intermittent reinforcement. That makes sense." Me: "Yes, like sometimes he gave me what I wanted so I kept pushing him to get it, to get more of it."

I said sometimes I wished that I could have just been working with ex-MC, so that we could have fully addressed it. T: "Well, but that could have had its own set of problems. Then you would just be a man and a woman sitting in a room talking, with no H there." Me (thinking...isn't that what I'm doing right now with you?): "True."

Me: “Maybe I just define love differently, like I have a lower threshold. Where some people would think it means I’d take a bullet for them.” T: “That could be. Maybe for you it could be how someone makes you feel when you’re with them, for example.” Me: "Yes. So my saying love might seem scary to someone because of what they think it means. Which is different from what I mean. when I say it." Mentioned how a guy had dumped me after I said I loved him, and how I'd vowed never t say it first in relationship after that. And with people since then, including H, if I started feeling love toward them, it was like "Oh no, what if they can tell, what if they can figure it out." I forget what T said to that.

Said I wanted to cover some other topics in email too. Brought up the ever-present original stone, how his reaction to that still continued to affect me. I said it wasn't so much that I wanted an apology for what he said, I just wanted him to really understand why it upset me. Like when he called it "10% creepy" and compared it to digging through a celebrity's trash. T: "But remember, I said that was on the other end of the spectrum." Me: "But I don't want to be on that spectrum at all!"

I asked why he was OK giving me the stone now for the trip--was it because it was for a set period of time? T: "Maybe that's part of it, but it's really more that I know you better now and I think I understand what's going on with it."

Then I made the stupid decision to bring up looking at his photo. Me: "What I don't understand is why you were bothered by the stone when you thought it was about you, but then you seemed totally fine with my looking at your photo, which is very clearly about you. It's not like I was looking at a photo of the building." T: "Well, I wouldn't say I was totally fine with it. Maybe 5% bothered." Me (starting to cry): "What? I thought you were OK with it?" T: "But that's such a tiny amount. It's barely anything at all. I don't see why it's so upsetting." Me: "Because I don't want it to be any percent. I just want you to be OK with it."

T: "I'm not immune to you, LT." Me: "What?" T: "Things you say and do affect me. I'm not going to hide that. I'm trying to teach you how other people can be affected by what you choose to share. So that maybe you'll think more carefully about it before you share with them." Me: "...Are you trying to say if something like this happens in the future, I shouldn't share it with you?" T: "Well, you should really think about the effect it could have." Me: "But wouldn't something like that have therapeutic value? Like, say, why I was looking at your photo one week but not another?" T: "I'm just saying to think about what you share." Me: "And I know you're trying to get me to know how affect other people...but I'm not going to tell my friend that I missed her and looked at her photo. Well, possibly a family member, but...I think that's kind of normal."

I started crying, "I just have trouble internalizing things, internalizing other people's feelings for me. Not just with you, with anyone. So I need the outside things sometimes. And I don't want to have to hide that." I forget what T said to that. I asked if it would bother him if I went back and read some of his emails to me. He said no, that he wrote emails to clients with the thought that they might revisit them, so that's fine. Me: "OK, that's part of why I initially wanted you to reply to Monday's email, so I'd have it to look at. But then I realized I was sort of afraid of how you'd reply, and we'd only have Friday before the break, so..." T: "I think it's better we met. I've said some fairly harsh things today, and it's better that I'm able to see your reactions to those." Me: "Yes, some of this would have been even more difficult over email."

Me: "I know we're near the end, but there's one other thing I want to bring up that wasn't in the email but that I thought about from Monday." T: “Is this going to be a uncomfortable place to end session?" Me: "I don’t think so, I just want to clarify something, an impression I got." T: "OK." Me: "So when we were talking about secure attachment, you were listing various things you'd said, like told me you wouldn't abandon me, worked through conflicts with me, said that you'd tell me early on if something I did bothered you. And it sort of felt like...I got the sense that you were frustrated with me. But it's not easy, if I've had attachment issues my whole life, to just hear those things and be like, Oh, OK, everything's fine now. So...are you frustrated with me?"

T (in a caring voice): “I’m not frustrated with you, LT.” Me: "OK, thanks." T: "As you know, I can be rather intense at times." Me: "Yes." T: "When I was saying those things to you, it's because I really hate that you have to struggle with the attachment, I don't want you to be suffering." Me: "Oh. OK. Thanks."

T: "I know some of this has been difficult for you today." Me: "Yes." T: "You often seem to react more strongly than I expect you to. So I'll sometimes try to dial back the level of intensity or feedback for you." Me: "I appreciate that." T: "Sometimes I think maybe you need to tell me what you want from a topic, what you're looking for from me." Me: "OK." T: "But I am going to give feedback. Because I want to help learn to listen to and trust your internal voice first, rather than someone else's." I think I started crying here--or said something that prompted his next comment.

T: “Maybe the question should be: Do you think you can handle me?” Me: "...I think so." T: "OK. But just think about it." Me: "I will. But this makes me think of a recent forum post. Where someone had just started seeing a new T, and they were pretty harsh to them, but then they felt it was helping. And I replied to it, talking about you, saying how you say some harsh things to me as well. But that I wonder if I need to hear those harsh things and experience the emotions that come with them, in order to really get at those emotions and work on them. Like shame, for example. And I feel like I'm making progress with you, even though it's been painful at times. But I think maybe I have to do with the pain to move forward. Does that make sense?" T: "That makes a lot of sense." Me: "OK."

Confirmed Friday. T said would be fine to schedule half-hour call while I'm on vacation next week, that I could just text or email about a time. Went over and paid. Usually he stays seated while holding out his hand to me, but this time he stood up like on other side of his chair from me then was walking around to me, and I wasn’t sure if he’d forgotten the handshake and wondered why I wasn’t leaving or if he was going to shake it standing up. To break the awkwardness, I just held out my hand, and he shook it. Said he’d see me Friday, I said I’d see him then and “thanks for the extra session, though I know this is your job.” He smiled. (I was sort of hoping for a "take care," but oh well.)

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Default Aug 24, 2018 at 08:45 AM
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight View Post
And it sort of felt like...I got the sense that you were frustrated with me. But it's not easy, if I've had attachment issues my whole life, to just hear those things and be like, Oh, OK, everything's fine now. So...are you frustrated with me?"

T (in a caring voice): “I’m not frustrated with you, LT.” Me: "OK, thanks." T: "As you know, I can be rather intense at times." Me: "Yes." T: "When I was saying those things to you, it's because I really hate that you have to struggle with the attachment, I don't want you to be suffering." Me: "Oh. OK. Thanks."
I think this is a big deal, checking out your perception of his perceptions. I don't think too many people are good readers of other people, especially when it relates to reading others about us. And when we have an emotional reaction to our wrong perceptions, that's the cost. Most people are hard to read, and some (unlike your T) either can't or won't tell you what they think.

What has been helpful to me when I've checked out my guesses about T's emotional responding is that what I've read as anger or frustration is really his desire (similar I think to your T) to help me, to relieve my suffering (or as he sometimes says, "to rescue you from that x,y, or z"). I'm not sure if this is the same thing your T is saying, but it seems in the neighborhood. I think asking about whether my perceptions of him have been accurate has given me a strong sense of whoa, I'm way off there, especially because I'm reading his desire to help as something negative about me. I think it's also been useful in decreasing my anxiety about what other people think, because it seems pretty clear I can't know unless I check it out with them. And if I'm unwilling or unable to do so, I prefer to proceed on the most benign interpretation possible. It's helped me let go of a sense that people react negatively to me, or if they do, that I don't mind unless I'm unhappy with my responses to them.

I think it's great your T willing to be straight with you about this. It seems like he has said a couple of times that he wants to help you with your understanding of how people react to you. The understated part of this may be that you often distort what you think about other people's reaction as most of us do, over interpreting them as negative, which I think in turn drives your anxiety about their reactions, which may spin into a cycle because then your anxiety may drive behavior towards others that makes them want to back off, then that feels negative/bad, rinse, repeat, etc.

I think when therapy is a safe place to check our perceptions like this out, it's possible to make great progress in interrupting cycles of negativity.
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Default Aug 24, 2018 at 10:41 AM
  #37
I think Anne2.0 has a great point about using therapy to check in about others' perceptions of us. But I think the key word is "check in." I don't think the client necessarily needs a lot of input about what the therapist feels (especially if there is a negative component to it) before the client has a solid grasp on what they're experiencing, why, and how they [the client] feels about it. I think that's true even if the client prematurely asks if something is okay with the therapist. I can think of times when I have been highly emotional about something that brings me shame and have asked my therapist if it's okay. She usually mirrors my feelings back to me and tells me that my feelings are okay. I don't think that would be the right time for her to say, "Well, I myself am feeling a little uncomfortable right now..." I think it would be better for her to keep her impressions to herself and maybe use them later to inform her response if a similar thing is coming up in a story I'm telling about an interaction with somebody else, or if I get to a point where her discomfort is relevant to pushing my therapy forward. (I admit that this is hypothetical because I don't know that my T has found any of my behaviors or thoughts creepy or uncomfortable. But then she generally has a pretty good understanding of why I do the things I do, even when I initially don't.)
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Default Aug 24, 2018 at 11:02 AM
  #38
LT, a lot of your most upsetting experiences have centred around peoples responses to you (take MC for example) so I don't think you are under any illusions about the way people respond to you. That's why this T reiterating a similar response to those you've experienced in the past seems less than helpful. It seems like further rejection and shaming. Much better, I would have thought, to explore where these needs are coming from and deal with that, rather than to supposedly try to educate you on his own ideas of what other people might be thinking. The irony that he accuses you of mindreading...

I don't know whether he has completely missed what an intuitive and attuned person you are, LT, but thinking he can somehow change the way you relate to others by telling you what others have told you before is patronising and really underestimates your ability to work this stuff out for yourself, I think. There are underlying needs driving your behaviour, not a misunderstanding about what other people think.

Last edited by Echos Myron redux; Aug 24, 2018 at 11:14 AM..
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Default Aug 24, 2018 at 11:18 AM
  #39
Quote:
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I don't know whether he has completely missed what an intuitive and attuned person you are, LT, but thinking he can somehow change the way you relate to others by telling you what others have told you before is patronising and really underestimates your ability to work this stuff out for yourself, I think. There are underlying needs driving your behaviour, not a misunderstanding about what other people think.
It seems to me it is a misunderstanding when LT said to T that she sensed he was frustrated but it turned out he was not, he was wanting to help her end her suffering. I don't have any special skills to determine who is or is not intuitive or attuned, but I think that even the most gifted of people often misperceive what they think other people are thinking and feeling without checking in with them to test whether these assumptions are correct. The people I've known who claim they are excellent at reading others pretty much uniformly aren't, but they've constructed an alternative reality where they believe they are correct and do not seek or pay attention to information that contradicts this.

I don't see any patronizing, just direct answers to questions and a willingness to engage what is brought to therapy.
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Default Aug 24, 2018 at 11:24 AM
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echos Myron redux View Post
LT, a lot of your most upsetting experiences have centred around peoples responses to you (take MC for example) so I don't think you are under any illusions about the way people respond to you. That's why this T reiterating a similar response to those you've experienced in the past seems less than helpful. It seems like further rejection and shaming. Much better, I would have thought, to explore where these needs are coming from and deal with that, rather than to supposedly try to educate you on his own ideas of what other people might be thinking. The irony that he accuses you of mindreading...

I don't know whether he has completely missed what an intuitive and attuned person you are, LT, but thinking he can somehow change the way you relate to others by telling you what others have told you before is patronising and really underestimates your ability to work this stuff out for yourself, I think. There are underlying needs driving your behaviour, not a misunderstanding about what other people think.
Yes! This is so spot-on! One last thing before I stop clogging up the In Session thread: my anxiety around needing to know what other people are thinking (and my assumption that their perception of me is very negative) comes from a childhood need to know what my passive-aggressive/ambivalent mother was thinking so I could contort myself and my behaviors enough to please her and get the care/attention/protection that I desperately needed. It worked then when she was so emotionally unpredictable and inconsistently available, but it doesn't work for me now that I'm surrounded by stable people who genuinely care about me. If your anxious attachment style has similar underpinnings, then your therapist's insistence on making his reactions such a central focus of therapy will threaten to replicate past experiences and probably won't actually help you become more confident in yourself and comfortable in your own skin.
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