In Session Today: Part V - Page 49 - Forums at Psych Central



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Old 12-15-2018, 02:35 PM #481
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Default Re: In Session Today: Part V

Had an odd session, but a good one, I think.

Because I can be a bit of a scatterbrain, I set a reminder on my phone so that I'd remember to re-read the posts I wrote last week--about how the session had gone and how I wanted to talk more about the topic we ended on (the fact that what I often want from therapy is to feel contained/held). So I re-read them while I was waiting for HWMNBN. Once we sat down and he asked what I had for the agenda I took a deep breath and said that I thought we ought to talk about how I seem to want containment from therapy but often don't get it... but that I have trouble talking about it so could he help me, please?

It transpired that "I have trouble talking about it" was an understatement. Poor HWMNBN was trying his damndest but I really couldn't tell him much about what I wanted or what I felt. He kept saying things like, "what would you want if you were unconstrained by reality?" [I don't know, though I do feel sure I don't want any physical touch from him] or, "is it that you know what you want but feel embarrassed to say it?" [no] but I just couldn't give him much and now have forgotten much of that part of the conversation. I do remember him asking if I could tell him where in my body I felt whatever-it-was I was feeling, and I touched the top of my sternum. He asked if it was in my neck or my chest, and I said it was in my chest. (I had the desire to snarkily give him a precise anatomical location--"at the junction of the manubrium and body of the sternum, which where the second rib articulates with the sternal structure; also known as the Angle of Louis--why the bloody hell does it matter?"--but I restrained myself.) He noticed that I seemed to like dealing with this subject, which made me a little embarrassed but I agreed that yes it felt like something important, that I wanted to try even though I was very frustrated that I was having so much trouble with words. He didn't directly reassure me about that but his manner was calm and patient which helped.

Somewhere in this conversation he said that I seemed "softer" somehow, since we came to the agreement that led me to decide to continue therapy with him. (I don't really want to get into that but essentially we decided to quit talking about what either of us think my exact diagnosis is.) I said that yes, I felt less antagonistic. I grinned and said, "it [the agreement] was a good move" which made him sigh in a sort of exasperated but also laughing way. I said that if I seemed more vulnerable to him it was probably because I felt that it was safe enough to do so--I no longer felt that I had to defend myself from him saying something that I found hurtful or disruptive. He said something along the lines of how he felt badly that he had hurt me.

We sat for a bit. Then he said, "I find myself wishing I could give you what you need, even though you aren't able to articulate exactly what that is." We sat in silence for quite a while then but it actually felt okay, nice even.

He said he was going to say something a bit weird, "maybe even too personal," then noted that he was looking at me quite steadily while I was looking at the floor. He wondered aloud why that might be, if it might have something to do with my discomfort about my own needs and desires, whether it felt more comfortable to displace my longing onto him. I considered, then said I didn't feel like that was it--looking at him intensified my shame about the whole business, and it was just too difficult for me to look at him for any length of time. I said that while in the past he'd interpreted my lack of eye contact as an unconscious attempt to make him "lean in" more (like, I was withdrawing in an attempt to make him "chase after me"), but that this interpretation had felt bad to me (almost like he was saying "I've got your number, now stop doing that," though that was not what he said at the time). He seemed a little startled but did consider my viewpoint and didn't push his which I appreciated.

I said that while I didn't understand what exactly was going on (seemed likely to be something pre-verbal) that it felt nice to be trying to discuss it at least. He asked if I knew why. I thought for a while and then said that the inequity of gaze didn't feel like the important aspect to me; what felt important was that I felt vulnerable and he was seeing that clearly. I said something like, "the way that you are present with me right now feels inherently healing." And it did, for some reason. I really wish I understood why, though I don't even know if understanding is important or not.

Then he said, "I know you've done some reading in psychoanalysis. Have you ever come across the term 'erotic transference?'" I said I had. (It'd be *really* difficult to read any serious amount of psychoanalysis and not stumble across that term but whatever.) He said that it felt to him like there was an erotic component to this discussion. I said I wasn't conscious of that, and asked him to explain why he felt that way. He couldn't really--gave me some general stuff about how sex and sexuality are pervasive in adult relationships, how it is unlikely for any relationship between a heterosexual man and heterosexual woman is to be completely without an erotic component, even in relationships where any erotic acts are completely verboten. I said that the longing I feel for containment feels very childlike, and shared with him this image I get of a small child holding up something broken to show to an adult. He noticed that I seemed to find discussing this business of eroticism "aversive," and I said yes. He said he felt as if he'd broken a spell or burst a bubble, and felt badly for that. We were over time so I had to leave; I told him that I didn't think he had anything to feel badly about.

Maybe that last part will sound odd to folks, but it didn't feel scary or unsafe at the time. A little awkward, but not truly icky. I think it helps me to know that all of our sessions are videotaped and reviewed by other providers every week, which feels like it mitigates some of the risk inherent in having a vulnerable patient and less-vulnerable therapist talking about any erotic aspect of their dyad. (I'm not saying I think those are bad conversations to have, of course, I'm just saying that I'd be stupid to be ignorant of the fact that some therapists take advantage of their clients.)
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:38 PM #482
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Default Re: In Session Today: Part V

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight View Post
Thanks, Lemon. I think that's what was behind T's reaction of "goodness!" I know some of this stuff comes from my mom, that I don't deserve a certain level of care. Like in high school I told her I was depressed and wanted to see a therapist, and she was like, "What do you have to be depressed about?" Even a few years ago, I mentioned an appointment with ex-T, and she said, "Shouldn't you be done with therapy by now?" And I see people on here talking about how T's should only see clients more than once a week if it's a "crisis," stuff like that. And I think (in general, not because of anything on here) how I'm probably reacting too strongly to things in my life.

But T has told me that people react in different ways to things. And that I shouldn't feel that because some people had much worse childhoods than me, that I didn't experience any trauma. That he feels sad that I feel I'm less deserving of care because it wasn't that bad. That it might have been really bad for *me* and that's what matters. He's also said how dealing with bad anxiety and OCD all my life (plus some depression) can be a form of trauma. All his validation helps. Including more recently the stuff about how it's normal to still have feelings of intense sadness for ex-MC. And the validation/support on this forum helps, too.
I struggle with this as well. Not necessarily not 'deserving' therapy, because I think everyone is deserving of mental health care. But of being there in the first place. I had great parents, great childhood, no traumas, no awful events...no struggles really. So what do I have to be depressed about? Why do I stuggle with anxiety and depression when I have no reason to? My mom use to say the same thing "what do you have to be depressed about?". I still have no clue what I have to be depressed about - I have a great family, healthy kids, stable job, the house, the car, the dog, the cat...but none the less, some days I can't get myself out of bed.
I've learned that comparing myself to others is never beneficial. While something may not bother Suzie in the least, maybe you and I take it more to heart and struggle with it. It doesn't mean we're any less than Suzie - we're all just different.

That was a lot of words to simply say, I can relate to you.
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:43 PM #483
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Default Re: In Session Today: Part V

I agree Sienna. Once when I went to the hospital, another patient started telling me about the sexual abuse she experienced as a child and then asked why I was depressed. What could I say? For me, it is a chemical imbalance. My childhood wasn't perfect of course, but I was not abused or neglected. But I shouldn't feel guilty for being depressed.
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Old 12-15-2018, 04:21 PM #484
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Default Re: In Session Today: Part V

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Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight View Post
He's also said how dealing with bad anxiety and OCD all my life (plus some depression) can be a form of trauma.
I very much agree. I did not have external influences and events in my life that I would describe as intensely, seriously traumatic and that scarred me for life - it is living with my brain that has created chronic stress, self-destructive tendencies and has amplified my anxiety over the years. I often tell people that I think most my issues are due to biological predispositions more than anything else (and it is obvious if one looks at all the things that run in my family) - this is only one reason why the type of therapy that is focused on childhood, family of origin experiences, the interpersonal realm etc has not made much difference for me. Dissecting my past and feelings endlessly does nothing or very little to my genes, chemistry and other biological processes, certainly nothing more than I can introspect myself or with friends. Because the main culprits, for me, are not coming from those things therapy most typically addresses. This is one reason I like your T, LT - he seems to focus on coping and has a sort of pragmatic style that works for me very well, I know it from experience because I do many of those things and strategical influencing myself regularly, consciously going against my internal momentary currents/feelings, and that is what helps best.

It is a form of self-medication without drugs and that sort of self care is quite unlikely to turn into obsessions because it is not rewarding on that level, has self-control and discipline leading it. It can be helpful via shifting my focus and keeping me from extremes. I know very well that it is unlikely to work well on issues primarily stemming from early life interpersonal traumas and abuse and I understand completely why many people on this forum tend to be against it or at least feel it lacks deeper relating, but I am not going to change my approach because it's proven successful long-term and quite predictably, especially as I choose not to take psych meds. It is a quite different realm from those dealing with abuse and interpersonal traumas primarily. Having biological anxiety and depression can create interpersonal difficulties and traumatic experiences though out of procrastination, self-neglect, avoidance and many other consequences. I think it is a bit like the chicken and the egg - what is the chicken and what is the egg is not the same for everyone.

I also understand why you may have bonded with ex-MC via anxiety - high level anxiety is quite peculiar and challenging, I also tend to be drawn to people who live with generalized anxiety disorder, although I don't think I am very good combo with them when it comes to something productive as we tend to drives each-other crazy, especially if someone is not highly aware that the crazy-making feelings and obsessions are the product of anxiety itself. When I read your posts, LT, I often think that perhaps this is also what your T thinks and why he is never extremely keen on encouraging the attachment and transference explorations much further - perhaps it drives you even more deeply into the anxiety without much additional insight, rather than alleviating it? Maybe there is some truth in this, maybe not, but definitely a thought. I would definitely say different things to someone who describes debilitating childhood traumas and abuse.
 
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Old 12-17-2018, 09:52 AM #485
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Default Re: In Session Today: Part V

We kept the final session as light and normal as possible at my request. Laughed and talked silly stuff. He played the game I asked him to play. We played like 25 min. That was fun. Did a normal walk and he did A pic with my dog and I. Got my final hug. Was too short

I didn't cry until we hugged and the whole ride home. I regret so much I didn't say now. I hate that I didn't say i love him. I texted him that and its in his goodbye letter. I read it to him. So I guess I did say but not at the end. Sigh

He wrote me a goodbye letter too. Overall a nice session. Just wish I had accepted the end and been more prepared. I'd probably not be regretting so much. I miss him so much. It's crazy to know there is no more sessions or funny stories etc.
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Old 12-17-2018, 10:06 AM #486
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Default Re: In Session Today: Part V

On Friday, we mostly talked about eye contact. I don't really feel like going into a lot of it, but I managed to look at him a couple of times and while I got sad at first, in the end I felt really happy and relieved.
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Old 12-17-2018, 08:27 PM #487
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Default Re: In Session Today: Part V

T today. Went back and sat down. T: "How was your weekend?" I started crying. Me: "Oh great, I'm crying in the first minute of session..." T: "Not good then?" Me: "Objectively, it was good. Went out with H Saturday evening, watched [my football team] win at a bar Sunday. But." T: "Other stuff on your mind was affecting you?" Me: "Yes. You can probably guess what...more with ex-MC."

I said how I'd sent him a followup email Thursday saying that after thinking about it, I did want some sort of response, whether just an acknowledgement that he'd read it, or more if he wanted to share more. And I still hadn't heard back. (Crying) And it just felt like I was nothing to him now.

T said he could understand my feeling that way. And he had two thoughts about it. The first was from a professional standpoint. That I'm still his client. Me: "I am?" T: "Yes. He hasn't sent you a formal termination letter. And he left the door open for you and H to come back, right?" Me: "Yes." T: "So, yes, you're still his client in a professional sense. Without the email, if you were to go out and shoot 500 penguins, then maybe right now he wouldn't be considered partly responsible. But if you sent him the email and he didn't reply, then you went out and shot 500 penguins, he could be considered partly responsible, because of client abandonment." Me: "Oh, OK." Note: I have no intention of killing any penguins.

T said there's also the emotional element, where he should reply to me because of that. I said (through tears) I just felt like I didn't exist to him now. T said he completely understood that (he was using his version of the super caring voice through all of this). How he'd likely feel the same way if he was in my position. Which meant a lot to me.

We talked about reasons why he may not have replied. I said how I thought maybe he'd been out of town or sick or something. T said one aspect of his job takes him out of town for 1-2 weeks at a time, so could be that. (I didn't mention I'd seen his car in the parking lot on my way in--his office is across the street from T's.) He said it could be that he read the email and intended to reply, but then it ended up on page 6 of his emails and he lost track of it. But T said my sending the followup made that much less likely. That maybe he was trying to figure out what to say. Or he wasn't sure if a reply would benefit me.

I said if he didn't think I'd benefit by reply or if he didn't want to engage in email anymore, then I felt he should tell me that. How it might hurt, but silence feels worse to me right now. Because I don't know what's going on, and there are many reasons why he might not be replying. Me: "I don't know if this is a good idea or if you'd even be willing to do this. But...I wondered if it might help if you could contact him and just find out if he doesn't want to correspond with me anymore over email. Like maybe he doesn't want to tell me directly, but he'd be willing to tell me through you? I'm not looking for some long explanation, like I'm not asking you to talk to him for an hour to figure out what happened with me. I just want to know if he doesn't want me to contact him anymore."

T thought for a bit. T: "Do you feel OK waiting until Thursday?" Me: "I guess, I mean, I feel like I'm in this spiral." T: "If you wait till Thursday, that will be a week since your last email to him. And if you haven't heard back, then if you want me to contact him, I'm willing to do that." Me: "OK, thanks. I think I can manage until then."

Me (crying): "I just hate that I'm so affected by him. I feel like I should be over this by now." T (in the caring voice): "He was a very important person to you. It makes sense that it's affecting you this much." Me: "That helps to hear. I just keep getting upset with myself for still being affected."

T: "I think he gave you a feeling that no one else ever has." Me: "Yes." T: "And you want to feel that again. And so that's why you reach out to him. You want that fix." Me: "Yes. I can get feelings approaching that from you at times." T: "Well, but I don't 'hold you with my voice' or things like that." Me: "True. But I do get....something from you. OK, that sounds really bad, sorry." T: "I'm not offended by that at all!" Me: "OK, good, I guess I'm just trying to say that you do give me some feelings like that at times, but I feel like nothing can reach the level of ex-MC. I think that was just something in how he and I interacted." T: "And what you got from him, you felt understood. You didn't get that from your mom, she tried to make you into someone else. But he saw the real you." Me: "Yes, he understood and accepted me as I was." [sobbing] Me: "He understood and accepted me, but then ultimately ended up rejecting me. I mean, he would of course say that he didn't reject or abandon me, because H and I could still come see him for sessions, but..."

T: "Here's another place where professional vs. emotional come into play. Professionally, he may not have abandoned you. But I think it's pretty clear that he did emotionally." Me: "Yes...and I think that's part of what really hurt me, that he didn't seem to understand that. Like if he'd just said, 'I know I really hurt you, I'm sorry...'"

Talked about my contacting ex-MC. T asked how much I'd contacted him since termination. I said about 6 times, but one of those was right after termination (like that day) and another was just to say I had PhD interview and wish me luck. T: "OK, we'll consider that 4 emails then. They were all times when you were feeling vulnerable, right?" Me: "Yeah." T: "And I think at least two of the times were when there was conflict in here." Me: "Yeah, the one a month ago when I was wondering if I needed to see someone else." T: "Yes, and I think there was one with the stone." Me: "Yeah." T: "So you were looking for emotional support. He may have been unsure how to handle that, what his role was." Me: "Yeah, but he replied all those times." T: "Well, as we've talked about before, he's never been clear with boundaries." Me: "Yeah...like he kept replying to the emails, so I thought it was OK to still send them, that he'd keep replying."

T: "So where do you see this going? Say he replies to this one, something like, 'I'm sorry you're still feeling bad about this. Best of luck to you in the future." Me: "So like something nice but innocuous?" T: "Yes." Me: "I don't know. I mean, it would make me feel better...but I don't know how long it would last." T: "That's what I'm wondering." Me: "Ideally, I'd be contacting him less and less often."

T said he wondered if I'd still be looking for that feeling I got from him, a fix. T: "And if you're emotionally vulnerable, looking for a fix from him could be like going to a crackhouse." Me (kind of laughing): "So you just compared ex-MC to a crackhouse. If I was still on good terms with him, I'd have to tell him you made that comparison. See, I can laugh about it, I guess that's good..."

I said how I didn't know how to stop wanting that, how maybe he just needed to tell me to stop contacting him. Me: "When the teacher did that, I didn't contact him again." T: "But that was really painful, right?" Me: "Yes, it hurt like h*ll, but it did get me away from him. I feel like ex-MC being harsh with me in that call, it accomplished the same thing. Maybe I never would have been able to leave if he hadn't."

T: "So what are the ways a relationship can end that don't involve a big conflict or a fight?" Me: "Well, I guess if it just kind of fades away." T: "Yes, the fadeaway. Sorry to be referencing basketball there." Me: "What?" He explained, referencing Michael Jordan. Said how another way of relationship ending is two people just realizing it isn't working anymore. Me: "But would that involve a conversation saying that?" T: "Not necessarily, might just both realize it on their own."

Talked about how maybe I was having trouble accepting that relationship with ex-MC was over. Me: "I know acceptance is last stage of grief, so I'm clearly not there yet." T said in a way he thought I was in the denial part, but didn't seem quite right. T: "You're still clearly actively grieving." Me: "Yes." T: "It can be harder when it's for someone who hasn't died. Because there can still always be hope for reconciliation." Me: "Yeah, like with a romantic partner, that you could get back together. Or at least thinking you could eventually be friends. But I don't think that could happen here." T: "What makes you think that couldn't happen with ex-MC?" Me: "You think I could be friends with him? I don't think that could happen." T: "No, I just meant reconciliation. I don't think you could be friends, it's too complicated." Me: "Yeah that's why I was surprised when I thought you were saying that."

Talked more about feeling like ex-MC really understood me. I said how some of that may have been his talking about his own anxiety. Me: "I guess it's like...I feel that a person has to be messed up in some way for them to understand or accept me. Like if someone seems like they have it all together--even though I know that might not be real--it's like how could they want to deal with me? I think that's why...I wanted to know the stuff about your son--but I don't want to get into that now, was just giving example. But it's like I need the other person to be...broken in some way. Maybe that's not the right word." T: "Broken is the word I was thinking of. Actually it makes me think of this pop song that's out now, 'I like that you're broken, broken like me.'" Me: "I don't know that one (Google says it's lovelytheband, and OK, I have heard this song before and now have it stuck in my head), but yes like that." (Note: this is now 3 consecutive sessions where song lyrics have been cited by one of us.)

I said I knew we had to stop soon. Me: "I just wish I could get through this. I want to feel better. I don't want to keep being so sad. I want to start taking better care of myself. I want to feel more self-worth. Do I just need to push through this? Maybe this is the apex of the grieving and I just have to get through this and I'll be OK?" I forget what T said, but he seemed empathetic. Me: "I just don't want to keep having these bad thoughts in my head. I hate that one person, who isn't a parent or spouse, can affect me so much." T said again that it made sense he affected me in the way he did.

Possible trigger:

Me: "I know we have to stop. It helped getting all of this out, just talking about it." T glanced at clock and picked up his phone. Confirmed Thursday. T said he'd be in the office Sunday before Christmas, so I took a session then. And scheduled for Thursday after Christmas, too.

Went over to pay. Shook hands as he said, "Have a good few days." Me: "Thanks, you too." T: "Take care." Me: "You too."

Last edited by LonesomeTonight; 12-17-2018 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 12-17-2018, 09:33 PM #488
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Default Re: In Session Today: Part V

@LT I don't know why he would have said my ex-wife if he also had a wife he is married to. However, if he only recently removed his ring, I doubt he could be divorced already, so you probably misheard.
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Old 12-18-2018, 05:10 AM #489
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Default Re: In Session Today: Part V

LT, I loved this write up- so emotionally true. It was touching he clearly thought about how to mirror you before the session by meeting your song lyrics with his own song lyrics. It feels like he is with you in this, and has your back .
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Old 12-18-2018, 08:19 AM #490
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Default Re: In Session Today: Part V

Quote:
Originally Posted by susannahsays View Post
@LT I don't know why he would have said my ex-wife if he also had a wife he is married to. However, if he only recently removed his ring, I doubt he could be divorced already, so you probably misheard.

Yeah, I'm just trying to put it out of my head. Not like I'm going to ask about it or anything. I mean, maybe if I think I hear him say it again.
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