In Session Today: Part V

I guess I'm feeling ashamed.

Wednesday I had my 2nd session of the week with T2. I'm still getting used to the idea that he'll see me more than once a week. We talked about a stressful shopping trip I had the night before, and he brought up the fact that I always smile or laugh when I say something that I'm uncomfortable about. Told him I couldn't think straight lately and he suggested I try thinking out loud about some things. Started talking about how I get worried about what things to say or not to say because of oast experiences with therapists. He said he was glad that im able to come twice a week, and he hopes it'll offer a chance for me to be more comfortable and open up more as time goes.

Saw T1 yesterday for EMDR. We're only working on containment exercises, but we still talk most of the session about other things. Talked about my birthday coming up in October and what my plans are. He looked up the show I said I'll be going to which made me laugh. Talked about the SH and he said he called my dr that week but they have been playing phone tag. He didn't say anything about calling her back after he missed her call but I'm assuming he'll try to talk to her before our next session.

Don't see T2 until Wednesday thanks to Labor Day so that's a bummer.

I have a former T from more than 15 years ago who helped me so much through a lot of difficult trauma work. I ended because I though I was done, and I was (for 15 years). But I moved a couple of years after we ended, but I sometimes wrote to her, sometimes talked on the phone, sometimes visited her on the rare occasions I was back in town, once with my infant son.

When I asked if I could write her and she said yes, but she would not reply to my letters. Not even a one line response, I asked? She said "I will respond in the sense that I will read and hear what you say, your words will live inside me. If you need me to tell you that I hear you, you can call and we can talk on the phone. You are always welcome to come back and see me, too."

So I guess what it felt like to me is that there is a "response" in the sense of writing back, which my T was not willing to do and I understood that was her boundary. But I knew my words just weren't going into the air, that she responded to what I wrote in terms of hearing it. Knowing I would be heard even though it would not be in writing, the way I wanted it, really helped me.

I don't always get the exact response I want from other people, but sometimes it is just enough for me to say what is on my mind. I do believe we impact others with our words even if they never tell us, including our T's.

From the connection you describe you have with your former T, I do think your feelings have gone somewhere, to her. That she has read them and understands them. Just because she doesn't write back, that is still true.

I related so much to the conversation in this thread that I actually felt adrenaline when your T went to the place of 'I prepared really hard for this session with you Daisy; I prepare for all my clients . This post captures a whole lot of what I struggle with in therapy in terms of the T relationship . There's this double double of I care so much; I don't care personally. It makes me crazy. I learned from this post, and really invested in reading it. I liked the part in which he was , I think, honest and respectful in saying communication was misattuned. He seems horrified by the idea of hurting you. He definitely doesn't want you suffering , to let you hurt, or to cause you hurt. I wonder is that the same as genuinely caring about you as a person? Therapy confuses me.

Well that was a session.
When I got there, the stone he had chosen for me was on my seat. I picked it up, put it on the table and thanked him.

I started by talking about the feeling of connection at the end of last session and how I had had a good week. I told him about how his offering me his toy had made me feel, and touching his hand etc. I wasn't getting much back from him so I decided to move onto the dream I had emailed him.

In the dream I had been going uphill on a scooter and we made an interesting connection to therapy. At first I was accompanied but then had to go it alone. But I was still frustrated and feeling like he was being non-responsive. (it's a feeling I've had with him before.)

I told him I felt he was acting different. He just looked back at me. I said "I don't think it's just me" he said "I believe you!" which upset me because it felt like he just didn't give a s***. I scoffed and sat back. He said "I just don't know what to do with it." I said "don't do anything with it". He sat forward like he was going to start analysing his behaviour. I said "You don't have to do anything with it". He said okay and sat back.

We sat in silence. He asked what I was thinking. I said "We have been here before, it is boring". More silence.

He said "So I am thinking, if this feels repetitive, like we are just in a pattern, what can we do differently?"

I said "I don't know, do you have any ideas?"

T: When you asked me that question, I my fantasy was to arm wrestle. I'm not saying we should.

Me: That reminds me of on PC a couple of years ago when there was a thread to post a picture which represents the therapeutic relationship and I posted one of a little girl and a grown man playing chess. They are both competitive fantasies.

T: Well we don't have time to play chess.

Me: Are you saying we should arm wrestle?

T: I've never arm wrestled with a client before. It would be pretty unfortunate if one of us ended up with a dislocated shoulder.

Me: You're too sensible sometimes.

(All this was quite lighthearted).

Then I went quiet and felt sad. T asked where I've gone. I said "I've retreated, I've gone into myself." I looked at him and said "I feel sad, my eyes are burning". He said "I thought you looked tearful. He said "what do you need?" I said "a hug" and we stood up and he hugged me tight. We sat back down again. I noticed there was 5 minutes left. I was still tearful.

T said it seemed like we were being quite playful just now, then you became upset. He pointed out that I also became frustrated during the dream discussion at a point we were being playful. I said it's like something is going on which is unspoken.

I noticed that I was trying to analyse the competitiveness of the fantasies but that was making me more tearful and it was like my child part was telling me I was being too analytical and I was missing something. I wasn't sure why I had become upset.

I told T if he has anything to say, to say it now because we were about to finish. He said he was worried about ending here, while I am upset and feels this is happening too often. He referred to the email where he had said about making an effort to connect at the beginning of the session and said he was open to suggestions about how we do that. I said I would think about it.

Before I left, we hugged again and I said "I love you". He sighed.

An example of an appointment when I first hired the woman:
Me: What is supposed to happen here?
Therapist: you come in and have a conversation with me
Me: About what?
Therapist: About whatever you want
Me: Well, I don’t really want to converse with you about anything. But if one is supposed to converse here, I think you should be able to tell the sorts of things one is supposed to converse about so I will know.
Therapist: What was your week like?
Me: I saw Tosca the other night
Therapist: who is that
Me: Are you messing with me?
Therapist: No, I would never do that
Me: It is an opera
Therapist: I don’t know anything about opera
Me: Do you know anything about scooter repair
Therapist: No
Me: Cats?
Therapist: I don’t like cats
Me: Then what are we supposed to converse about?
Therapist: Whatever you want. What is going on in your life
Me: I went to see Tosca, my scooter needs a new battery and my cat hurt his paw.
Therapist: How do you feel?
Me: What the hell are you talking about?

Short recap of last session since I didn't write anything about it and it's relevant: On Friday, I had a flashback while in session and told my T. He proceeded to be quiet and not say anything until it was over. At that point I then felt like he abandoned me, got upset, sad and angry. I asked him why he didn't say anything and he said 'I don't know' as well as that I can't always blame other people.

So, today, I got there and sat down in my usual spot. T didn't start as usual, instead he said he thinks it would be good to talk about last session, whether I was okay with that? I said yes. He asked what I thought about it. I replied that he hurt me a lot, that I was very upset about it. He wanted to know how he hurt me and I said by not talking to me and essentially abandoning me. He answered that I already said the same thing last week. And that he replied that he didn't know why he did that and that I shouldn't always blame others. He told me that he at some point before that got confused and lost, and then he realized I was angry with him, so he took that feeling and got angry too. And then he got defensive and said things he probably shouldn't have. That he should probably have told me that he's confused or should have asked for clarification and so on.

We talked about the fact that I had also told him at some point that he should talk less. So what should he have done? I said that how much he talks depends on the situation. And that I have a hard time just talking, I like to be asked questions and feel like he listens to what I say somehow (which he has to let me know verbally somehow, because I rarely look at him). He told me he should have probably asked about the flashback, like what I was experiencing or seeing. But at the time he wasn't sure whether I was upset and needed to calm down (in that case he should not talk to me, we agreed on that before this happened) or whether I was just telling a story. He said that feelings can get very intense during therapy, for me as well as him. That sometimes I see parts of me in him, but he sees parts of himself in me as well. And that then sometimes things can get out of control, especially if people are angry. But his job as a therapist is to keep his emotions in check and to not just lash out. Somewhere in this discussion, I also told him that sometimes I worry because he seems affected by the things I tell him a lot of times. So sometimes I feel like I shouldn't share certain things to not upset him. He answered that I can talk about anything I want with him. That's the rule. There's rules in therapy, one of which is that we can talk about everything under the sun and I don't have to think about how these things might affect me, he has to deal with that.

After some time where none of us said anything, he asked what I was thinking. I said 'a lot'. He: 'Like what?'. As soon as he asked, everything vanished out of my head, which I told him. He said that happens sometimes. I said I was sad. Probably because I was scared before the session. 'When you were traveling here?' Yes, but also already in the morning and yesterday evening. I was scared that he'd still be mad. Or that he wouldn't want to talk to me, or even worse would say he'd terminate me. 'Your thoughts go there very quickly, huh?'. He said that was probably because I had that experience with a whole lot of people. That I unconsciously repeat this pattern of making people mad and then at some point they leave because they can't deal with it.

He asked what I did to not be so scared. I said I try to tell myself that he said he'd never just terminate me. And that so far we have always talked through such situations and it was fine. But somehow it still doesn't calm me down. He replied that it's important that I feel I make the experience that we can work through it. That this will repeat a lot and at some point I will feel okay with such situations.

Whether there was anything else I'd want to talk about? I said not really, this was the only thing on my list for today. I was sad for a few days after this had happened, and I felt like I couldn't get anything done because of it. He said he thinks it's important that we talk about these things, that's why he brought it up. To which I replied we would have talked about it anyways, because it was the only thing I wanted to talk about. He told me he thinks about his clients after work. He takes notes on what he thinks is important and whether there's something he needs to talk about next time. That that's his job. And that some people say he's just doing this for the money, but there's much more to it. He continued to talk but I interrupted him and said I don't think that anymore (I had said something like that when I started therapy though). He replied it's good if I feel that way.

Then we quickly talked about how news affect me. Especially the fact that I react to bad news very strongly, and even if I have heard them a thousand times I act like it's new to me. I will every time think the world is coming to an end. But if there's good news, which could give hope or similar, there's never a very positive reaction to it. He told me some people with BPD will go off in the other direction and get all euphoric when receiving good news. I said that sounds nice, but he disagreed and said that's not good either.

Then we wrapped up, while I collected my things he told me again that there will be a few times in therapy that he hurts me and that we can always talk about it and manage to get through, and that he's glad we talked about it.

Wow, CNS, your T sounds eerily similar to mine...How are you feeling about the session?

Haha, I know, they often sound very similar if I compare your reports to what I write down for myself. I feel great about it . I find that my T responds the exact same way every time he' does something wrong/not so positive at some point during our sessions, which I find helps when I do worry about any issues we've had during a previous session. I know when I go back and we talk it through, we will work it out somehow and it will be fine.

Had a really good session tonight - I'm glad I managed to make it there after a hospital procedure earlier in the day.

We talked about how the procedure had been, what results there had been, how I was feeling about it all.

We talked about the fact that I'm going to have to leave him soon, and what our plans for that are. He shared some of his feelings on the situation, too. I talked about my fears that new-T won't "know who I am and give a s**t" like he does. He made a bit of an impassioned speech about how he "knows who [I am] and gives a s**t" because I am brave and honest and bring my true self to therapy (or something), so how could he not? It was lovely.

I managed to get up the courage to tell him that I was annoyed with him for not accepting my gift - saying he'd think about it and then pretending it never happened instead.

...and he said he did think about it, a lot, and he talked to his supervisor about it, and he had decided he would accept it (would 'be honoured' to) if I still wanted to give it to him.

It was a massive shock to the part of me that had been convinced that he hated me and felt I was trying to invade his life or something. And it was a massive relief... Not so much that he said he'd accept it, but that he actually had thought about it and wasn't trying to just sweep it under the rug.

I don't know if I can give it to him. I expect I probably will, though it feels weird now, like it's been built up into a massive thing. So much pressure on it.

I suppose it would make a good 'goodbye gift'.

I'm glad your T thought about whether or not to accept the gift and it is a good thing in my opinion that he decided he would be honored to accept it. I hope that it will be a good experience if you decide to give it to him. I've given my former T a few things over the years and she has been gracious about it and it was always a lovely thing to experience. I hope that it is for you too.

T and I talked about my issue at work and what he said makes sense. It always makes me feel better when I make sense. T is leaving for a month on vacation. T asked me if my meds. had changed to cause this problem and I said, no. He asked me that after I told him I had an appt on Monday with my Psychiatrist. I told him I was thinking of upping my meds. Later on in the session, I asked T didn't we have two appointments booked for next week and he said, Yes, one on Monday and one on Wednesday. I was like, okay. It didn't dawn on me that I had a Pdoc appt. on Monday even though I just said it. So, I was kind of frantic on the way home. I keep putting myself in situations like this, and it's as if I set myself up to be in pain and anxiety. I guess it's a coincidence, but I really feel helpless as a result of these things happening. My T is leaving soon, and I'm wondering if a part of me is protesting. But I don't know. And even though it is not an internal saboteur, it sure feels like one. I really need to feel safe and grounded right now. This inner ego state despises my neediness. So do i.
Why can't I have a little bit of peace within?

T yesterday. I was running late and had just opened the door to the waiting room when T was opening the door to retrieve me. I said, "I just made it!" T joked, "If you weren't here yet, I wouldn't have come back out for another 20 minutes!" (Usually if I'm running late, I'll text him so he'd know when to come out, since he doesn't have receptionist.)

Went back and sat down. T: "I like your necklace." Me: "Thanks!" T: "I don't recall seeing that one before." Me: "You haven't, it's new. I got it from this online boutique." (He tends to be very observant about my appearance and clothing/accessories.)

He asked how I'd been doing. I said OK, that I'd seen p-doc Wednesday. He asked how that went. I said pretty well, and that I'd been really nervous about it. T: "Why were you nervous?" I explained how I thought I was having Abilify side effects (particularly elevated heart rate) and worried she wouldn't believe me. T: "Why would you think that?" Me: "Well...I was afraid she'd blame it all on drinking and say it couldn't be the Abilify. And that she'd make a big deal about it." T: "Did she do that?" Me: "Well, no, actually she really listened and is having me stop the Abilify." T: "Good." Me: "And also I was afraid she'd push some different med that I didn't want to try, because I've had so many side effects." T: "Would you consider her a 'pusher'"? Me: "No, not really, though ex-p-doc was, so maybe I sort of still expect it?"

T: "What would have happened if she had tried to say it was about the drinking?" Me: "I guess...I would have just tried to explain that new symptoms started after I began the Abilify." T: "And you could say it's not like you increased your drinking. That you know this is a new symptom." Me: "Yeah...but then I'd be worried she'd push the drinking stuff again--which I am working on." T: "But then you could just tell her you're working on it." Me: "True...I guess it's just...another authority figure thing."

T: "As we've talked about before, one of the things I want for you is for you to feel that you are your own authority figure, that you're the authority on LT." I started tearing up, reached for a tissue, and said: "I know, I want that, too. I don't know why I'm crying, I feel like I keep crying at random times." T: "I've noticed you often get emotional when we talk about authority figures." Me: "Yeah...I guess it's not so random. It's just...a difficult topic for me, I guess."

I said how I struggled when ex-p-doc had tried to push for me to intensive outpatient and had implied ex-T and ex-MC were on board with her, but they really weren't. T said he remember my talking about that. He said to remember that I would have had option to not go, that they could make recommendations, but it's my therapy, so ultimately would be up to me. I said I worried about seeming noncompliant, whether to ex-p-doc or current p-doc.

I said again (like I'd mentioned last session) how it felt like he had all the power in the relationship. T: "And I feel like you have all the power. You could just leave here and never come back again. I couldn't just terminate you." Me: "But...you could take things away. Like you could say no more emailing, for example." T: "But I'd need a legitimate reason to do that. And if I wasn't giving you what you needed, why would you stay with me?" (I should have said "attachment" but didn't.) Me: "Yeah..." T: "I'm just a consultant. Why not just find another therapist who can give you what you need?" Me: "Yeah, I guess..."

He also mentioned my having control over what we talk about. I said that's true, but that sometimes I want to discuss a particular thing, but then he ends up leading the conversation elsewhere. T: "Well, you should stop me then. Tell me that you want to talk about something else." Me: "But the thing is, sometimes what you bring up does seem helpful. Like when you suggested talking more about my current relationship with my mom a few weeks ago. But really, at the time, there was something else I wanted to discuss. but I went along with what you said because it made sense." T: "In that situation, tell me you want to discuss what I said at some point, but you need to talk about this other thing right now." Me: "OK, I'll try to do that. Sometimes I'm trying avoid something though." T: "But usually you'll admit that you're avoiding something eventually." Me: "True. But not always. Like sometimes I hope you'll realize, but you don't." T: "Because sometimes I'm stupid and don't pick up on things." I laughed, "Yeah, at times. So I guess I'll try to do better at telling you."

I mentioned the thread about what people think would help therapists be more effective. I said how some had suggested more supervision. He seemed to bristle a bit there, mentioning how he is in a peer consulting group. I said I knew that (since he'd consulted them about me). I mentioned the being in therapy themselves. T: "I think I mentioned this, but I was in therapy as part of my PhD. I guess clients might want to know if we know what it feels like to be on the other side." Me: "Yeah." T: "The thing is, even if we've been in therapy, it doesn't mean we know what it's like. My experience of therapy may have been very different. If I wasn't attached, didn't stress about the relationship, etc." Me: "Good point. So you might not really understand then." T: "Yes."

T: "And actually it can be a bad thing if a therapist has gone through or is going through the same thing as the client. Because it can color how they feel about it, they're going through the lens of their own experience." Me: "Hm...kind of like how I thought at first ex-MC also dealing with anxiety and issues with his father was a good thing...but then later on I wasn't so sure because it felt like there was an element of, 'I worked through my anxiety issues, why can't you?'" T agreed, saying that with addiction counseling, it's often done by former addicts. And it can be an issue because they'll think the way they got clean is the only way to do it, when it might not be the right way for that person. I found that to be interesting.

Me: "I feel like this session went in a different direction than I'd planned in the beginning. But it was helpful." T: "Was it me again?" Me: "Actually, no, this was just as much my doing." T (pointing at me): "It's all your fault!" Me: "Yeah, it is." T (with a big grin): "I'm just messing with you." Me (smiling): "Yeah, I know!" That exchange made me feel like things really are OK between us, after last weekend and last session. Like last session, he told me that things are OK, but this seemed more like him showing me, because he was just being his usual self with me.

Spent last bit of session talking about D's first week of school, how she's really been struggling at home, which is causing all of us stress. And how I'm hoping this is just an adjustment period. T said it probably is, that he sees a lot of teens, and this is a weird few weeks in his office, because everyone seems out of sorts with the transition back to school. That it's generally temporary. I said good. Me: "I know this sounds weird, but sometimes I wonder, with stuff like that, are therapists like, 'Oooh this will be good stuff!' like if a client is really struggling with something." T: "No, I don't like to see my clients struggling." Me: "Yeah, I should have figured that." T: "Like I've said, what makes me happiest is when I can work myself out of a job with someone." Me: "Yeah."

I also talked about some progress D had made lately, like starting to ask "why" questions. T said how that was good developmentally, but to be careful, because we may not think she's paying attention to what H and I are talking about, then she might suddenly be like, "Why is Mommy mad at Daddy?" (I'm guessing he might be speaking from personal experience...) And I said how she's suddenly shifted from calling me "Mommy" to usually calling me "Mom." T: "That's rather formal!" It felt like a warm, positive, connected conversation, a good way to end the session.

Confirmed next Monday and Thursday, went over to pay. Shook hands, as T said, "Have a great weekend!" Me, "You too!" T: "I'll see you Monday." Me: "See you then." T: "Take care." Me: "You, too."

Does he really not understand about attachment? Or is he waiting for you to say it?

Of course, some patients would agree with him.

I think he's starting to understand more about attachment, thanks to me. But I don't know if he realizes someone might stay with a T who isn't necessarily helping them--or even hurting them--because of attachment. I think I may need to mention this in session Monday...

^ I def. don't think he has much clue at all, seems like from most of your recaps, he is kinda hoping it goes away on it's own.

Personally that comment would have ticked me off and I probably would have never come back. Seems really dismissive, but maybe that's just me.

I am still confused as long as your T has been working how he has never dealt with attachment before? It's very common in therapy

There's something really nuanced and touching about this. He definitely has a game plan for you having as strong a voice in living as in writing. Earlier, in a different update, someone commented on if what he wants for you is what you want for yourself. He goes beyond mirroring - into maybe motivational interviewing. He is really committed to you, it feels like from here.

On the consultant thing- my T says these things too- it is kind of "au contraire" to dependence/ attachment/ too much focus on the relationship. It upsets me at times- like once he said he is not the only psychologist who could help me and once he said he is a doctor of minds like a podiatrist is a doctor for feet. However month later, I called him back to those statements and he gave such a big smile and said". . . Yes, I can be. . . a challenging person. I am here for you and I am your advocate, actually".

They try to take stances that make us reflect rather than always say directly what they mean(?). I think he was countering you, and raising your bid

I've told him before that he's probably had very attached clients, but they just haven't told him. That it took a long time before I told even ex-T about my attachment for ex-MC. I'm mostly open about it with current T because I've been through it before and know that keeping it inside often just intensifies it (at least for me). So if it's the first time in therapy for one of his clients (likely, as he sees lots of teens), they may not realize what's going on and/or feel like they can talk about it with him.

Comments like that consultant one put the reality of the relationship front and center, as an antidote to any romanticizing ( or transference ) the client might present. It offers an eye view of the relationship that is reductive and hurtful one one way ; if , though, you came in and said "hey T you are just a consultant basically and you are a dime a dozen", then he would switch teams and start arguing for the authenticity and care he offers. It goes back to some of the discussions we've all had about suspending disbelief, and the "as if" quality of the relationship. In framing himself as just a consultant , he invites you to find him special and deny that or to lose the "as if " quality . All I know is those kind of comments hurt my feelings, and put a check on my belief in the relationship for a while. It is kind of under the auspices of leveling with the client, that something a bit distancing is said. Certainly, I dont believe you T views himself as just your consultant easily replaceable with another, and maybe he is trying to show you that YOU too are not just a client easily replaceable with another either as a way of diffusing the power you express he holds?

I have done that. I told the woman she was a just a consultant and therapists are a dime a dozen etc. I don't see that is a bad thing to remind them.
I doubt it fazed her any.