In Session Today: Part V

I like how he supports your freedom and agency to stay, leave or find another T, and there he DOES explore with you- is it just him, is it other T's , whys. . . He is great there and not defensive like about his son.

I think this is where T's say I am human too.

My big sense is his son is a trigger for him, and it is more about that than about you in this episode.

LT,

I've mentioned before that I have a kid on the spectrum. If I was conversing as frequently and intimately as you do with your T, I would expect that he would tell me if I was under a mistaken impression. People who don't have kids on the spectrum do not know how hard that situation can be - only another ASD parent won't bat an eye if I talk about my son throwing scissors at a teacher and getting expelled (this was years ago). Other parents ask stupid questions like "Did you teach him to throw scissors?"

Your growth in dealing with these types of situations is improving so much.

I know others sometimes criticize your T - but I've always really liked him because it's clear that he is trying to learn how to effectively communicate with you and NOT treat you like ex-MC did - which caused a lot of turmoil. (I had my own personal version of your ex-MC in my life and the best thing I did was move on).

I agree that this wasn't his shining moment.

Thanks, I do feel I'm able to be more honest with him--including in person--than I was with ex-T or ex-MC. And that's something I really need to work on in outside relationships, so it's good that I can practice it in there.

I definitely think there's some sort of enactment thing going on here, like something from my past--but I'm not quite sure what specifically. I did mention that to him in session, how I thought maybe this was coming from someplace else and wasn't just about him. But he just sort of looked puzzled. I also think there's some transference and countertransference going on here--it seemed like the stuff about his son triggered him in a way. I mean, maybe it simply triggered his protectiveness as a parent, but it felt like something else.

In thinking about it more, I wonder if, in the conversation about autism in a recent session (Monday?) where I felt really close and connected to him--maybe he felt somewhat close and connected to me, too. And that freaked him out and caused him to pull back and be like "Maybe my son isn't on the spectrum after all." Because I definitely felt something different from him that day--like he wasn't fully being "Dr. T" in that session, that more of [T's first name] was coming out.

Yeah, he seemed a bit defensive there. I got his point--someone can be a good T and be understanding without having experienced every exact thing that a client has. But it also seems a bit arrogant to suggest he really understands those conditions/experiences, as he only knows what clients tell him--he's not in their heads. I'd almost prefer if he could be more like "I admit that don't understand everything, I want you to help me do that. And I'll do my best."

I think he was intentionally NOT using a psychological issue/experience here, because he likely didn't want me to speculate on whether he had or had not experienced that particular thing. Because then I'd want to know more about it, most likely. There was another session where he made some comment like, "I'm not going to tell you what psychological issues I've personally dealt with" (I think this may have been in relation to me talking about ex-MC telling us in one of the first sessions that he had an anxiety disorder). So I don't feel he was being dismissive of my issues, more that he didn't want to use a similar example, so he was trying to go off in a different direction.

Yes, I do really appreciate that he supports whatever exploration I need to do about him being the right fit for me or not. Yes, I know this is what a T should do...but he seems particularly open about it and not defensive. With ex-MC, when we had the rupture a year ago, it seemed like he was trying to convince us to stay and work through things. Plus the whole "working through the transference" stuff. (He also said I should go back to ex-T and work through my maternal transference for her with her...) And we kept going for longer than we probably should have (though less often), I think in part because of that.

I do get the sense his son is a particular trigger for him. As are some other things about his personal life (like if he's going out of town, he refuses to say where he's going or even simply if it's personal or business, and seemed very bothered when I was curious--ex-T and ex-MC were always forthcoming with that). Yet he randomly mentioned his wife having ADHD a couple different times fairly early on in seeing him (he otherwise only rarely mentions his wife). And this was before I mentioned H having ADHD.

Thanks, it helps to hear that. The thing is, it does feel like T understands on a deep level what it's like to parent my D. It really feels like it's coming from a place of personal experience and empathy. He just...kind of changes when he's talking about autism or listening to me talk about experiences with D. He seems softer, more empathetic. I'm not sure how to explain it, beyond it just being a different vibe I get from him, something in his eyes and face. It seems that he just gets it. Which, along with his not denying it when I said what ex-T told me, is why I just assumed that his son is in fact on the spectrum (and honestly, I still think he is).

Wow, the cluelessness of some people is amazing...

Thanks, that's nice to hear.

Yes, it seems like my T is really trying to learn and help me as best he can. Has he messed up badly a few times? Sure. But, as you said (and as he's said), I think he's trying really hard to not replicate the mistakes that ex-MC made. He's trying to look out for my best interests. Maybe that means he isn't going to say the exact words "I care about you," even though I wish he would. But I can tell the caring is truly there, in his being so careful and thoughtful about certain things with me. Is he the best-equipped to deal with my various issues, particularly attachment and transference stuff? Yeah, probably not. But he seems to be trying to learn from and listen to me. And I think that's a really important quality in a T.

And sorry you had your own version of my ex-MC. I thought he was what I wanted and needed, and he clearly wasn't. I sometimes wonder if a big part of the reason I'm doing better now is in part that I'm away from him...that he was holding me back.

Does it matter where his empathy comes from? It seems to me that the important factor is how you experience him in those moments, not what might be happening in his personal life which might make him empathetic. I think this is a clear example of you looking externally at him at the expense of looking to your internal life and emotional experience. Of course, he should be smart enough to redirect you, but he sounds too ham-fisted to be able to practice with the kind of subtlety which that approach would require.

I read you being pulled between wanting the removed and linear approach of your current therapist and craving the emotional connection of your previous therapist. You will often say that you benefit more from working with your current therapist, and yet a lot of your session analysis reads as you trying to re-write his intentions, feelings and approach. He shows you a clear and reasonable boundary - he won't discuss his son's medical issues - and yet you see this as evidence of his triggers, counter-transference, in fact anything more emotional than an appropriate professional barrier. He is relaxed about you looking for another therapist because he has very little emotional or personal investment in you. He is being professional, for better or for worse.

I don't intend any of this to be confrontational, I just wanted to feedback how I read some of your postings.

well i asked t to talk on the phone instead of meeting in person

this is after I told him I'm canceling

I'm so dumb

why does t put up with me. I'm such a nuisance

I do appreciate the feedback. I feel like this is so much what I want (ex-MC) vs. what I need and what will ultimately help me (current T). I desire an emotional connection but know that a more boundaries professional one is like kept better for me. Maybe it’s a battle between child and adult parts? I don’t know. But I feel like T’s approach will ultimately benefit me in the end. As I feel like it has lately. But then there’s that part of me that wants him to be like “yes I’m also the parent of a kid on the autism spectrum, so I understand in a way that I couldn’t clinically.”

And I think he does have some investment in me, but he also realizes that my needs are what is most important. If he truly cares, as I feel he does, he wants what is best for me, even if that involves a break or a different T.

LT, from the last couple notes I have the same impression as before a few times. I personally really like your T's style but he overdoes it at times and these were some of those times IMO. That extensive discussion about how he would not tell you about his son does sound annoying and unnecessary even for me. I think there would be much more respectful and satisfying ways to settle that without having to become warm and fuzzy or self-disclose. It's like when people say "I have a strong opinion / would have a lot to say on the topic but am not going to tell you". I do agree with creating narratives though via extrapolating and fantasy whether the reality matches that or not. Have you ever thought about becoming a private investigator? Just kidding

Maybe a therapy break would not be such a bad idea at some point, if for nothing else, to see what happens and self-assess the details of how you would cope with it? I imagine it would be a bit like some sort of acute withdrawal, at least initially. Your T does not tend to let you experience that because he always eventually responds and often offers you emergency sessions. Mine were similar in that sense so I could only create it for myself when I took breaks and eventually quit for good. For me that was the best decision I believe, but breaks might be useful just to learn more about yourself in ways you generally would not want to? I don't know, I don't think you are I have enough similarities for me to make good enough suggestions, just an idea.

Sadly, there are therapists who are that stubborn and lacking in imagination.

I have been USED and EMOTIONALLY ABUSED by some hifalutin egomaniacs.

At a loss as to why no one warned me or tried to intercede.

t is calling me in 8 minutes.

LT:

I have no way of knowing if this is true for you, but it's something I'd be feeling, so I'm going to throw it out there in case it resonates with you at all, and if not feel free to totally disregard it.
My twin brother is on the spectrum. Because there's already a lot of stigma and misconceptions out there, I struggle to talk about it with people who don't get it. I worry about reinforcing their biases. I feel like I have to defend his behavior. I got so used to having to stand to for him and defend him with people who didn't understand that it's hard for me to acknowledge the ways in which it made things more difficult for me or to hold him accountable for his abusive behavior. I feel like I'm supposed to be more empathetic and supportive. It feels like people who don't have those experiences don't have the "right" to judge it in the way that people who "get it" do, and so I'm going to talk to them about it differently and interpret their opinions differently. Someone who "gets it" is "allowed" to say things that others aren't.
It's the same with ethnicity/cultural background. I feel a lot more defensive talking about how my father's ethic/cultural background and upbringing contributed to his worldview abusive behavior if I'm talking to a white person from a "Western" background."

If I'm talking to someone who "gets it" I don't feel as defensive.
If I later found out that the person might not "get it" I'd feel betrayed. I'd be upset and feel that I'd been misled into, for lack of a better word, thinking an outsider was an insider. I'd feel like I'd disclosed things under false pretenses.

Whether or not this applies at all, your feelings that you've described are understandable and the way you've addressed it is admirable. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this situation, and I hope eventually there can be a more satisfying resolution.

Thanks for sharing this. It resonated a bit with me when I read it. I think you're right that, when I believed his son was on the spectrum, it made me feel safer talking about certain things, certain challenges. Because I figured he'd really "get it." There aren't too many people that I feel fully safe with in talking about certain issues with my D (like, her biting herself in frustration). So even though, yes, he probably has some professional knowledge about autism and how it can affect children, it still felt very different talking to him thinking he has personal experience with it (and I still suspect that he does...or at the very least with some sort of developmental delay or learning disability, like perhaps his son was initially misdiagnosed, or why would ex-T have thought was she did?).

I think there's also an element of...I felt connected with him when talking about this topic. I sensed something different from him. So now it's like I'm questioning that connection...which in turn is making me question any feelings of connection with him. And making me question my ability to trust him. Which I think is something I need to bring up today. I think I just need him to understand why this is affecting me so much. I'm not sure he fully got that on Friday--it's not just curiosity about his son or wanting to pry into his life or something. it's more than that.

It actually ties in some with the ex-MC stuff. In terms of the therapeutic relationship, boundaries, ability to trust, what's real vs. an act, etc. This may seem an odd comparison, but it makes me think a bit of when ex-MC said he wasn't planning on telling us that his wife had passed away (we already knew she was sick--I wondered about a sudden cancellation and something ex-T said when I mentioned it, so I looked up her name online and found her obituary). Especially with him being someone who disclosed so many things, it was like, he wouldn't have even told us about that? A major change in his life? Yes, I know, it's none of my business, and he was likely trying to keep his stuff out of our therapy...but it left me really questioning the relationship.

So, lots to think about. Thanks. And sounds like you're a great sister

I had an okay session on the phone with t but I think I was rambling

T apologised for not talking to me about the Christmas break before (because I had emailed asking) I said it's okay I wasn't worried because he basically does the same thing every year. T said what I had said in the email about how many years we have worked together prompted him to look at his notes from our very first session. (I am really touched by the fact he did that).
He said he had written in the notes "It's as if Echos is searching to be held in the way she never was as an infant". He said he doesn't know how he got that from the first session but it's interesting considering we didn't name that for about 18 months (possibly more actually).
I said "I swear sometimes I think you really are a wizard.". I certainly never said anything like that in the first session but it has turned out to be such a big part of what was going on for me at an unconscious level I am amazed he spotted that in the first session. I also think I might ask to see the notes from that session in full because I don't remember it at all, and all I wrote on PC was "He was nice, and attentive".

I gave T the tree I made for him using pyrography. He really liked it and he hung it on a statue in his room.

I told him someone I had googled relating to a past trauma and I talked about feeling nothing about it. He asked if I knew why I felt nothing about it. I said because it's just one of many things that happened to me in that period of my life, but because this particular one was illegal it somehow has more validity than the others. Maybe the whole period was traumatic for me.

We talked about how looking the person up and even considering reporting them showed that I am ready to show my younger self compassion now, and to advocate for myself. I talked about how my teenage part only really feels self worth when I am with my T and can feel my T believes I have worth, and that's part of why I miss him so much between sessions, because he holds my worth. But how maybe now I am developing that for myself just a tiny bit.

He pointed out that I didn't have as much control as I thought I had at the time, and a lot of the time I didn't have choice. I said yes and that knowledge will hopefully help me to develop self-compassion.

We were coming to the end of session. We stood up and hugged and he said "well done". I said "You make it safe".

T yesterday--moved a day earlier to deal with ex-MC rupture anniversary stuff--I'd emailed to say I was struggling, he offered earlier session and sent brief note of support (no charge!). Went back and sat down.

T: "So how are you doing?" Me: "Better than I expected to be. I actually got a fair amount of sleep last night. Your email helped some." T: "Good." T: "I'm guessing you haven't heard back from ex-MC?" (I'd emailed him Sunday evening about the rupture still affecting me). Me: "No. I figure he'll of course respond right after this session when I'm not seeing you til Monday..." (Note: he hasn't yet replied). T: "Do you hope he responds?" Me: "I think so...but I also feel like he won't give me what I want. So maybe it's better if he doesn't? I don't know..."

T: "Do you feel like you want to share what you wrote?" I pulled the printout from my purse and handed it to him. He got his reading glasses and read through it as I glanced awkwardly around the room. He said, "OK," and handed it back to me.

T asked what I expected from a reply. Me: "Like what do I want? Or what do I think I'll actually get?" T: "Sounds like those are different things." Me: "Yes. I mean...I want him to say something like 'I'm sorry I hurt you.' Not like, 'Sorry if this hurt you' or something conditional like that." T: "You want him to take responsibility for it. That can go a long way toward getting forgiveness." Me: "Yes. But I don't think he'll do that." T said it wasn't totally clear from my email what I wanted from him. And that I didn't give specifics as to what I felt he did wrong. I said I'd discussed those with him in person and over email more at the time. That I didn't feel I needed to reiterate them. T said OK, he didn't realize I'd been so specific at the time.

I said how before, I thought what I needed was for ex-MC to answer the question of whether it was my saying "I love you so much" that led to the phone call/boundary shift. But that he'd basically answered that question in the affirmative. And now it seems like I'm looking for something else.

I said he'd admitted before that he should have been more consistent with boundaries. T asked what boundaries I thought he meant. I said I assumed with outside individual contact, particularly since he said at end of that call that I needed to reduce contact. And because for the phone call a month later, he insisted that H be on it. T said that could be it or maybe he meant other boundaries, we have no way of knowing. I said true.

T: "I almost wonder if, because of that (I love you so much) email, he was doing like a 'Sixth Sense' or 'The Unusual Suspects' thing with your relationship, where that email was the twist." Me: "You mean 'The Usual Suspects?'" T: "Yes. Where he'd maybe assumed all along that your feelings for him were paternal, and he was responding to you in that way. And then you send that email, and he's thinking romantic love. And now he's looking back on the relationship thinking about things you said and that he said differently." Me: "Hm...though I feel at times it was just paternal." T: "Right, but if he's thinking in terms of that email... I'm just saying where his mind could have been going." Me: "Yeah...like thinking about comments he'd made to me, how I could have read them." T: "Yes."

T said maybe the reason things happened as they did was partly because of the place ex-MC was in at the time. Me: "With his wife being sick then dying?" T: "Yes." I said maybe he wasn't being as effective as he could be. T: "But even if he was on his B game, that could still be much better than many T's A games." Me: "I guess?"

Me: "It may have just been the combination of circumstances, like who I was then, who he was, what he was dealing with." T: "Yes, that could be." Me: "It makes me think of...this is probably a weird thing, but it makes me think of this Built to Spill lyric: 'Two trains that crash before you ever thought crashing could happen to you.' I know maybe that doesn't seem to make sense in this case, but it kinda makes me think of two people crashing together, just the way they are and how they interact. I don't know..."

We had 10-15 minutes left. I said I wanted to briefly talk about some stuff with him, like from Thursday/Friday. T looked puzzled and said: "You saw me both Thursday and Friday, two days in a row?" Me: "Uh, yes? To talk about the stuff with your son" (thinking "It was only 4 days ago, FFS!")

I said I knew we'd talked about it Friday, and maybe it seemed OK, but I'd been thinking about it more since then. And how I need to discuss it more. T said OK. I started crying and said how someone on PC had said something to me that resonated, that she has a sibling on the spectrum and often feels more comfortable talking about him with others who have family members on the spectrum, because they "get it," and it feels safer. Me: "I think that's what I was feeling with you, that when I thought your son was on the spectrum, you 'got it' in a way that many other people wouldn't. Even more than just anyone in a therapist role. Because I thought you had the personal connection. So it felt safer. And now...maybe it doesn't feel as safe."

T said something about it being safe to talk to him as a therapist. I said yes, but still less safe than when I felt he understood from a personal level. This led to him asking if I felt I needed to see a therapist who had similar issues to mine. T: "For example, I don't experience anxiety issues the way you do." Me: "Yeah, I figured that. But ex-MC does have anxiety--he told us in an early session that he'd been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, and not sure if that helped me ultimately." T: "Wow, he really does disclose a lot." Me: "Yeah, and he talked about issues he had with his father, too. But I don't know that I need a therapist who has the same issues. I mean, I doubt I'd be able to find anyone with the same exact pathologies anyway. Or that manifested themselves in the same way." T: "Good point. So then why does this with autism seem more important to you?" Me: "I guess...I mean, with anxiety and depression, I feel that most people can sort of figure out what that feels like. I mean, everyone has felt a bit anxious or sad at some point. So, it's like just multiply that out. I don't know..."

Me (crying): "I think...when we were talking about topics related to that, like with my D...I just felt particularly connected to you. Like you seemed...different during those interactions, I'm not sure how to explain it. And now it's like I don't know if I can trust that connection was real, or that other times I've felt particularly connected to you were real." T: "I can understand it might feel like you've been lied to." Me: "Yes, OK, I'm glad you understand that. I mean, it's not the same as if you had outright told me a lie, because I heard it elsewhere...But I mean, I think it's logical to assume, because you didn't dispute it then, how I just assumed it was true and informed my understanding of you based on that." T: "I can understand that."

Me: "Hm, OK, I recall you saying, kinda early on in seeing you, that it felt like in trying to figure out, I was looking for pieces to the puzzle of who you are. Well, this, it feels like I had part of the puzzle put together, then someone came along and ripped that section out. And now it's like I don't know if any of the pieces are put together right anymore, I don't know if my image of who you are is just totally wrong." T seemed to get it when I put it that way. And he remembered the puzzle comparison.

Me: "I think also...I get the sense we're very different people. But this was something we had in common, a connection. And now it's like this is gone, so...maybe what holds us together? I don't know." T: "What do you mean by us being different?" Me: "Well, for example, you're an athlete, I'm not, I'm really into music, you're not." T: "So, interests. I was wondering what you were going to come up with there." Me: "And also I just feel like your general way of looking at the world is very different from mine." T didn't disagree.

We'd been talking for 59 minutes. I said I knew we had to stop, that talking about both ex-MC and T's son had helped, I thought he understood more now, why the stuff with his son was affecting me so much. He said he did, too. Confirmed Mon. and Wed. I asked out of curiosity if he had any availability this Friday, just in case (since I'm not due to see him anymore this week). He said he has a few early afternoon sessions available. I said not to schedule me now, I'd see how I was doing. He said that was fine.

I went over to pay, saying I was trying to remember which credit card to use, as we were using certain ones for Christmas shopping. T (smiling): "You don't have to explain." Me: "Yeah, I mean, they should all have space on them, unless H went crazy and bought me a car, like in those annoying commercials." T: "Ugh, yeah." Now, I feel I most likely misheard what he said next, but I swear it sounded like he said, "If my ex-wife had bought me a car, I'd have killed her." I'm sure he just said "If my own wife" or something like that (or maybe this is his second marriage?), but it was still like, wait, what? (especially combined with his often not wearing his ring). But I'm just going with the assumption I'd misheard.

Shook hands, he said have a good rest of the week. Me: "Right...it's only Tuesday." T: "Yes, you still have a lot of days to go!" Me: "Yeah..." T: "Take care." Me: "You too."

Forgot to include an amusing moment--when T was asking about if I felt I should see someone with similar issues, he said that's often the case with addictions treatment. Me: "Yeah, a peer counselor--maybe I could be one of those someday." (attempting to reference my efforts to cut back on drinking) T: "An anxiety peer counselor?" Me: "Maybe..." T: "Oh, or a transference peer counselor, a TPC--you could start a new field!" Me (laughing): "There I go, that's my new career path!"

This may not be a useful inquiry for you, but I find it curious you didn't ask him to repeat himself, as in just a simple "sorry, I didn't catch what you just said. Can you repeat it?" No need to tell him what you'd heard possibly mistakenly or react to the correct information.

I guess the curious part for me is why you wouldn't want to know what he actually said, rather than an assumption, particularly in the context of the session topic related to autism. It was an assumption in the first place by you, in the sense that you assumed your former T gave you accurate information. In some ways it is perfectly reasonable to rely on what someone tells you about another person, especially when it would seem she received that information first hand because they once worked together, but in other ways you can't, just like any other "gossip" about somebody else.

I guess I just wander if there is something there in your communication style that may bear examining, given how much being clear about what you're saying and being clear about what the other person is saying is so central to human relationships, including T. And whether being less clear in speaking and understanding others could be connected to feeling anxious about the relationship or other kinds of issues.