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Old 12-06-2018, 09:32 AM #101
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Default Re: Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

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I don't think that wanting to have information and researching independently is the same as the defense mechanism of intellectualizing. The latter implies an escape from dealing with emotions and the irrational elements of our nature. Wanting to understand one's emotional processes, instead of just experiencing them, is pretty much the basic goal of therapy, no? And if someone finds it useful and sees significant improvement due to it in how they handle emotions, I don't think they escape by any means. The whole of therapy is quite an intellectual process and requires that strongly, that is how it can be different from ordinary interactions for many people, I believe. For me personally, many (if not most) of my ordinary interactions also tend to be heavily analytical and involving mutual introspection on psychological factors, one reason therapy did not bring me much new and felt superficial given that therapy sessions were an hour a week (plus some emails) vs. the rest of my life and social interactions all the time. I often quickly lose interest in and move on from people who cannot or do not want to engage with me in this way so, for me, it's part of a long-term, basic lifestyle. And yes, for me dealing with emotions very often involves heavily intellectualizing - escaping into what feels much more pleasurable than actually experiencing negative feelings. That's a defense. But I find that I can work on loosening it much more effectively in everyday life, especially when I have bad days and conflicts with people and trying to resolve them or just let them be. In therapy, just sitting and talking about it... was very much intellectualizing for me instead of doing, and because intellectualizing is kinda automatic for me and can even turn addictive, therapy was just running in the same old familiar circles, which I already do by default. But if someone can use it constructively and improve as a result, that is not an escape or defense IMO.
It's not just intellectual understanding though-it's experiential (not sure if that's the right word). I was trying to get at that with Here today in that it may be more of an implicit felt experience or believing rather than explicit understanding.

Intellectualization did keep me together when i was experiencing emotional flooding, so it wasn't merely a curiosity but it worked in a positive way. You and I are much different in those regards-I've heavily in my emotions (but use isolation), but it's not balanced. And although I'm a very analytical person, it seems to be one or the other. Therapy has helped integrate...

Having an observing ego is good and even necessary to tolerate psychoanalytic therapy, I believe. If you didn't have that, everything would be egosyntonic, where you'd have no awareness. But I think as a defense, intellectualization can have an adverse affect on one day to day in terms of being mindful. It can keep people as an observer of life rather than living in it, similar to depersonalization. So for those prone, analytic therapy can worsen that. You can talk about the transference rather than 'be in it' in terms of therapeutic space. I think this is the other side of the coin of being overly emotional.

Being an observer and not participant in the world around them is a schizoid trait that is accompanied by anhedonia, lack of motivation/procrastination, flat affect, and detachment. Loosening up defenses so one is in an emotional mindset more can help with that. A better regulated ego has balance. But I think of defense mechanisms differently than others here, so I won't go on about it. But it's something I have a deep interest in because it impacts the way your whole mind works, sense of self, and how you relate to others.
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:14 AM #102
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Default Re: Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

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It's not just intellectual understanding though-it's experiential (not sure if that's the right word). I was trying to get at that with Here today in that it may be more of an implicit felt experience or believing rather than explicit understanding.

Intellectualization did keep me together when i was experiencing emotional flooding, so it wasn't merely a curiosity but it worked in a positive way. You and I are much different in those regards-I've heavily in my emotions (but use isolation), but it's not balanced. And although I'm a very analytical person, it seems to be one or the other. Therapy has helped integrate...

Having an observing ego is good and even necessary to tolerate psychoanalytic therapy, I believe. If you didn't have that, everything would be egosyntonic, where you'd have no awareness. But I think as a defense, intellectualization can have an adverse affect on one day to day in terms of being mindful. It can keep people as an observer of life rather than living in it, similar to depersonalization. So for those prone, analytic therapy can worsen that. You can talk about the transference rather than 'be in it' in terms of therapeutic space. I think this is the other side of the coin of being overly emotional.

Being an observer and not participant in the world around them is a schizoid trait that is accompanied by anhedonia, lack of motivation/procrastination, flat affect, and detachment. Loosening up defenses so one is in an emotional mindset more can help with that. A better regulated ego has balance. But I think of defense mechanisms differently than others here, so I won't go on about it. But it's something I have a deep interest in because it impacts the way your whole mind works, sense of self, and how you relate to others.
This is a really great post, thank you. I definitely have schizoid streaks, it is much better now than when I was much younger though. One way to overcome/improve it is via things that I am really passionate about it and not just in an analytical/curiosity interest type way. I don't have that issue about being either emotional or analytical really, in my internal world and significant relationships/interactions it's all mixed and integrated pretty well, I think. What I do have is becoming detached, overly pure-observing and more schizoid-like when I am very anxious, uncertain and insecure (how it is a defense). So it is more an issue about coping with anxiety effectively or in self-defeating ways.

I really doubt that I would ever be able to truly be emotional with a therapist due to the imbalanced and limited structure of therapy. I think the max I could use it is for consultation about specific issues. But I can use ordinary, everyday 3D world (in person) relationships very well for complex experiences, especially people I respect a lot and have a close relationship with. So that's how I do it. It would also never work much online - again, because of its limitations.

Thanks again for your thoughts, I very much appreciate it
 
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Old 12-06-2018, 06:00 PM #103
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Default Re: Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

"Patients who manage to organise non-stop psychotherapy for themselves, year after year replacing one therapist after the other without a break, who even have a number of concurrent therapies at various stages so that they are hardly ever without therapy, learn a lot about psychotherapy, but only to defeat its very purpose. They themselves have no intention whatsoever of changing. They are professional patients. Briefly, they use psychotherapy itself to defend against change. The more disturbed ones, may fantasise or even attempt to become psychotherapists themselves. If they are lucky, they will be rejected by the training institution. If not, they will join the ranks of those bad therapists, who are well-versed in theory, but who have distorted attitudes, a tendency to intellectualise, and who are unable to work in the here-and-now, or make therapeutic use of transference and their own countertransference."

-----

While this is particularly aggressive, arrogant, judgmental, condescending, entitled, and creepy... I think it is still typical therapist attitude. People hate generalizations about therapists, but I think the above paragraph is further evidence that therapists as a group are low awareness creatures. It's easy to castigate clients for becoming addicts, but how often do you see one of these cranks acknowledging their own role in that process? Never. Instead they argue that the process that gives rise to addiction and trauma repetition and abandonment panic is the very same process the client should trust as the path to enlightenment. I wouldn't sit alone in a room with this person if you paid me. Ironically these aggressive ones often seem most insistent about trusting them to steer you thru a "corrective" life experience. Also the author mindlessly references standard therapy dogma... resistance to change, transference, "bad" therapists.
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:53 AM #104
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Default Re: Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

I do regret even posting that article! He does sound like an A$$hole.

But it seemed to fit the topic and it led me to question my own motivations to continue therapy. I don't 'need' it any longer since I've done the hardest part already, though I know I will keep benefiting.

I have dependency issues and am wondering if that's part of why I want to keep going when I can use the money for other things. Hmm.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:37 AM #105
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Default Re: Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

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. . .I don't 'need' it any longer since I've done the hardest part already, though I know I will keep benefiting. . .
A question, if you will -- how do you "know" you will keep benefiting? In what ways do you think/feel you can still benefit? Could you, perhaps, get those benefits in other ways?
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:40 AM #106
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Default Re: Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

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I do regret even posting that article! He does sound like an A$$hole.

But it seemed to fit the topic and it led me to question my own motivations to continue therapy. I don't 'need' it any longer since I've done the hardest part already, though I know I will keep benefiting.

I have dependency issues and am wondering if that's part of why I want to keep going when I can use the money for other things. Hmm.

I mentioned some stuff from the article to my T today, and he agreed with your A$$hole assessment! And said he didn't agree with that about longer-term therapy.
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:53 PM #107
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Default Re: Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

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It's not just intellectual understanding though-it's experiential (not sure if that's the right word). I was trying to get at that with Here today in that it may be more of an implicit felt experience or believing rather than explicit understanding.

Intellectualization did keep me together when i was experiencing emotional flooding, so it wasn't merely a curiosity but it worked in a positive way. You and I are much different in those regards-I've heavily in my emotions (but use isolation), but it's not balanced. And although I'm a very analytical person, it seems to be one or the other. Therapy has helped integrate...

Having an observing ego is good and even necessary to tolerate psychoanalytic therapy, I believe. If you didn't have that, everything would be egosyntonic, where you'd have no awareness. But I think as a defense, intellectualization can have an adverse affect on one day to day in terms of being mindful. It can keep people as an observer of life rather than living in it, similar to depersonalization. So for those prone, analytic therapy can worsen that. You can talk about the transference rather than 'be in it' in terms of therapeutic space. I think this is the other side of the coin of being overly emotional.

Being an observer and not participant in the world around them is a schizoid trait that is accompanied by anhedonia, lack of motivation/procrastination, flat affect, and detachment. Loosening up defenses so one is in an emotional mindset more can help with that. A better regulated ego has balance. But I think of defense mechanisms differently than others here, so I won't go on about it. But it's something I have a deep interest in because it impacts the way your whole mind works, sense of self, and how you relate to others.


I can relate to a lot of what you have written.
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:02 PM #108
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Default Re: Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

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I do regret even posting that article! He does sound like an A$$hole.

But it seemed to fit the topic and it led me to question my own motivations to continue therapy. I don't 'need' it any longer since I've done the hardest part already, though I know I will keep benefiting.

I have dependency issues and am wondering if that's part of why I want to keep going when I can use the money for other things. Hmm.
I'm glad you did because I thought it was an interesting take... just a little black and white and not very generous towards the client. I've been wondering lately if I've been 'coasting' therapy and maybe I need to work a little harder but then I have a really harsh super ego
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:06 PM #109
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Default Re: Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

Based on my understanding of the research on health interventions and outcomes, odds are high that improved or normalized quality of life while in long term therapy is a case of regression to the mean. Could also be due to simple intangibles like feeling less lonely or more supported.

What's seemingly least likely are the convoluted or nonsensical narratives that therapists favor (e.g. the client's "infantile transference neurosis" was successfully treated). I guess this justifies the high fees and makes therapists feel special (which seem to be the twin aims of the system).

Also, seems many people who report long term benefit are still in therapy. What happens after termination, which seems to destroy some people? Or if termination never comes, does that mean "working thru" transference is a process without end?
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:01 PM #110
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Default Re: Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

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I do regret even posting that article! He does sound like an A$$hole.

But it seemed to fit the topic and it led me to question my own motivations to continue therapy. I don't 'need' it any longer since I've done the hardest part already, though I know I will keep benefiting.

I have dependency issues and am wondering if that's part of why I want to keep going when I can use the money for other things. Hmm.
i'm glad you shared that article. it has provoked some interesting conversations here and, as you have stated, i am sure you are not the only one who is questioning their motivations to continue therapy or if how they are approaching therapy is actually all that beneficial for them (of course it is beneficial for the T because the T is still getting payment from a client who is happy to continue returning regardless if they are dependent or making positive progress or not).
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