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Default Dec 02, 2018 at 09:19 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by feralkittymom View Post
I actually don't hear much advice on this forum about "working out" issues in the presence of alarmingly negative symptoms. What I see more of is posters who are negatively bonded to Ts they should walk away from, but are too deep in desperation to do so. Assuming no one can understand a situation unless they've experienced it is just another way of staying stuck.


I guess I don't think of terminology as "labels." I think words are important because otherwise there's no chance of shared meaning.
The unfortunate reality is that many folks who find themselves negatively bonded are in fact in no position to leave.

I unstuck myself after 8 years of assuming I was working through my issues and said transferences. Especially since my therapist kept pushing me to dig deeper, feel more, grieve, etc. Not being able to differentiate between transference and an unhealthy relationship kept me enmeshed and stuck. I’ve shared in few other threads what my ‘red flags’ are, but it’s not like there’s a readily accessible consumer guide to determine whether your therapy relationship is or isn’t working. Sadly, even if there was, I was already in too deep to leave for many years. Pandora’s box was opened.

The really sad part is that now my options are either find another therapist in a system I no longer trust, or go it alone. I chose the latter. For now.
 
 
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Default Dec 02, 2018 at 09:36 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by feralkittymom View Post
I actually don't hear much advice on this forum about "working out" issues in the presence of alarmingly negative symptoms. What I see more of is posters who are negatively bonded to Ts they should walk away from, but are too deep in desperation to do so. Assuming no one can understand a situation unless they've experienced it is just another way of staying stuck.
This is what I think as well and why I compare many therapy stories shared on this forum to an addiction.

I personally don't think that it is always due to an incompetent therapist and/or unmotivated client when therapy does not turn out useful for someone. I think it is a particular approach to improvement that, if done well, it can be very helpful for some people, but not everyone. Just like a particular psych med or lifestyle choice would work for some but not for others, and can even be harmful in certain cases. I also think that some people are more prone to getting stuck in bad/useless therapy, in what is described as transference, attachment or whatnot, while others do not experience and process somewhat similar needs in a similar way and with the same outcome. It is normal human diversity IMO. I think some of us come here and like top encourage others to go against their internal currents and unstuck and this is sometimes met with negative reactions claiming we don't understand or are dismissive, which is fine with me as there is room for variety here and variety is exactly what can make a forum like this interesting and useful. There is also perfectly enough room for acceptance and pure support of whatever situation.

For me personally "working through" would never be something that is purely mental, remains in therapy, and does not lead to changes or improvement of symptoms in everyday life. This is one reason why I do not believe anyone can truly "work through" issues purely in therapy, whether it is transference, attachment, addiction or anything else. But it is just one opinion.
 
 
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Default Dec 02, 2018 at 10:51 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors View Post
I want to comment specifically to this part. Many of us have highly dysfunctional relationships with therapists because we had highly dysfunctional relationships with parents or no relationships with parents. Many of us carry that through to other relationships in our lives or have figured out how to navigate life despite. I was under the impression that replaying these dynamics with our therapist and having corrective experiences is what therapy was all about? Deep healing?

Particularly when therapists advertently or inadvertently try to provoke a parental or authoritative role, it seems to me that dysfunction resulting from a dysfunctional past is inevitable. Is there no help for those that keep forming dysfunctional relationships if such a thing is apparently not ‘normal’? Perhaps not through the therapy avenue, unless one is lucky enough to find a therapist who is truly exceptional.
Thanks. This is extremely well put. I agree. It's very hard to describe, but I think you have done it well. It needs to be put on a "warning label" for therapy.
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Default Dec 02, 2018 at 11:04 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Anastasia~ View Post
Just out of curiosity what would it look like for a T to bring up the paternal transference, like what would he say? This sounds horrifying to me, clearly I must not be ready.
I haven't specifically experienced anything I'd call paternal transference, but as an example... If during a session or a series of sessions I mentioned feeling a certain way about him, he might say something like "The way you're describing feeling reminds me of something, and I wonder if you'd agree. Do you think that feeling of confusion is like what you felt when your father..." etc. etc. etc.

The timing is important though, and I think (at least for me) the tentativeness of the interpretation is too. So my therapist would only bring that up if he saw it as the right time for me to hear it and had a reason he thought it would be useful. And if I disagreed, and said no, that experience with my dad was different because... or no, but it actually does remind me of this other thing/relationship... then my therapist would be open to hearing that, whether it eventually turned out that his interpretation was off base, or whether it just wasn't something I was ready to hear at the time.
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Default Dec 02, 2018 at 11:47 PM
  #45
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Just out of curiosity what would it look like for a T to bring up the paternal transference, like what would he say? This sounds horrifying to me, clearly I must not be ready.
We just called it transference. And it usually showed up as me saying, "you sounded just like my mother there." Then my t would say, "thats funny, because i was just thinking that you were sounding just like your mother there." I internalized a lot of my parents messages and would use them on myself and other people, instead of speaking in my true voice, as my true self. Even my dad would say, if i asked him a question, "well, my father would tell you blah blah blah." So a lot of not taking responsibility in the genes.
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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 05:09 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors View Post
The unfortunate reality is that many folks who find themselves negatively bonded are in fact in no position to leave.

I unstuck myself after 8 years of assuming I was working through my issues and said transferences. Especially since my therapist kept pushing me to dig deeper, feel more, grieve, etc. Not being able to differentiate between transference and an unhealthy relationship kept me enmeshed and stuck. I’ve shared in few other threads what my ‘red flags’ are, but it’s not like there’s a readily accessible consumer guide to determine whether your therapy relationship is or isn’t working. Sadly, even if there was, I was already in too deep to leave for many years. Pandora’s box was opened.

The really sad part is that now my options are either find another therapist in a system I no longer trust, or go it alone. I chose the latter. For now.
well said! this was my experince too. i was too entangled, addicted too, negatively bonded, unhealthily attached, deeply entrenched,or what what ever you want to call it in the relationship with my ex-T to even fathom leaving or that i could survive life with out him being a part of it. i was completely stuck and the most pathetic thing about it, is i absolutely knew this too. although i didn't have the courage, strength or worthiness to get myself unstuck. it was easier to go along with what others were saying i should be doing in therapy instead of listening to my gut...thinking perhaps all those others on the forums and in the therapy books are right and i must be doing therapy all wrong. so i persevered onward hoping that one day, just maybe i might just 'work through' all this messy transference and the unbearable attachment issues with my T. including finally resolving all the ruptures after repeated ruptures. all the heartache, disappointments, and frustrations. always trying to reassure myself that surely that must be what therapy was suppose to be about. although, the issue with that solution was i was slipping backwards in life, not forwards, like i had signed up for when starting therapy.

all the talk here about 'filling a hole' i reckon was the crux of much of my issues. i had the deepest, darkest, coldest, eternally bottomless pit of despair inside of me that desperately needed filling. my ex-T and all his smooth talk about a 'healing therapeutic relationship' knew exactly how to trigger the ravenous hunger in that pit. but all he was offering me was meager crumbs. and for me, that was ok, because i didn't feel that i deserved any more and those tiny crumbs he did toss me already had me hooked.

eventually, after getting frustrated of only getting fed crumbs, i did successfully move beyond my transference, but there was no 'working through' the transference in the relationship with my T, and not in the traditional sense that most discuss is suppose to happen with a competent T. it was only through focusing on other means outside of my therapy that i was able to do this. my mind learned how to calm the dysregulation and fears with the aid of neurofeedback. i worked internally with my fragmented parts to bring them together to begin working as a unified team. and in the relationship with my supportive husband, i was able to start forming a secure and safe attachment to him (not my T). as a result of all this, my bottomless pit of despair began to shrink and i actually started believing that not only was i worthy of the love from others, but that i was actually worthy of loving myself. the more love i felt towards myself, the more my emptiness filled. i eventually got to the point where i no longer feared being abandoned or alone. i no longer felt lonely. i no longer feared my T leaving me or living life without him. in fact, i no longer feared my T. it was those fears that were fueling my addiction to him and to therapy. when i reached this point, i knew it was time to officially end therapy. i was no longer stuck and in need of an unhealthy attachment. it was an incredibly empowering feeling to experince. i only wish that more people were able to have a similar experince and that is why i continue to share my stories here...to perhaps offer a glimmer of hope that there is a way forward to a more fulfilling life.
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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 05:29 AM
  #47
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well said! this was my experince too. i was too entangled, addicted too, negatively bonded, unhealthily attached, deeply entrenched,or what what ever you want to call it in the relationship with my ex-T to even fathom leaving or that i could survive life with out him being a part of it. i was completely stuck and the most pathetic thing about it, is i absolutely knew this too. although i didn't have the courage, strength or worthiness to get myself unstuck. it was easier to go along with what others were saying i should be doing in therapy instead of listening to my gut...thinking perhaps all those others on the forums and in the therapy books are right and i must be doing therapy all wrong. so i persevered onward hoping that one day, just maybe i might just 'work through' all this messy transference and the unbearable attachment issues with my T. including finally resolving all the ruptures after repeated ruptures. all the heartache, disappointments, and frustrations. always trying to reassure myself that surely that must be what therapy was suppose to be about. although, the issue with that solution was i was slipping backwards in life, not forwards, like i had signed up for when starting therapy.

all the talk here about 'filling a hole' i reckon was the crux of much of my issues. i had the deepest, darkest, coldest, eternally bottomless pit of despair inside of me that desperately needed filling. my ex-T and all his smooth talk about a 'healing therapeutic relationship' knew exactly how to trigger the ravenous hunger in that pit. but all he was offering me was meager crumbs. and for me, that was ok, because i didn't feel that i deserved any more and those tiny crumbs he did toss me already had me hooked.

eventually, after getting frustrated of only getting fed crumbs, i did successfully move beyond my transference, but there was no 'working through' the transference in the relationship with my T, and not in the traditional sense that most discuss is suppose to happen with a competent T. it was only through focusing on other means outside of my therapy that i was able to do this. my mind learned how to calm the dysregulation and fears with the aid of neurofeedback. i worked internally with my fragmented parts to bring them together to begin working as a unified team. and in the relationship with my supportive husband, i was able to start forming a secure and safe attachment to him (not my T). as a result of all this, my bottomless pit of despair began to shrink and i actually started believing that not only was i worthy of the love from others, but that i was actually worthy of loving myself. the more love i felt towards myself, the more my emptiness filled. i eventually got to the point where i no longer feared being abandoned or alone. i no longer felt lonely. i no longer feared my T leaving me or living life without him. in fact, i no longer feared my T. it was those fears that were fueling my addiction to him and to therapy. when i reached this point, i knew it was time to officially end therapy. i was no longer stuck and in need of an unhealthy attachment. it was an incredibly empowering feeling to experince. i only wish that more people were able to have a similar experince and that is why i continue to share my stories here...to perhaps offer a glimmer of hope that there is a way forward to a more fulfilling life.
Well said.

This was very similar to my own experience. The unfortunate part is that my being stuck cost me 8 years of time and session fees - not to mention the lost years of feeling horrible between sessions.

When I left I was in such a deteriorated state that it took months to work up to feeling like the world didn’t end. I can’t say I feel any better than when I started, minus gaining the knowledge to never ever allow anyone else to do this to me again.
 
 
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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 05:38 AM
  #48
Do therapist know and understand this is all happening? I am very enmeshed to my therapist and I spent the weekend trying to comfort that small child part that was in such despair. I have therapy today at 3pm. I did send him an email last night that I felt it was not the modality that he is using to help me with my issued but it was the relationship and the thought of leaving therapy brings back all the symptoms that brought me to therapy to begin with.

It is not normal to be thinking about your therapist every moment of the day. That is how my weekend went and I need it to stop. How can therapist think that is healthy?

Right now I just feel I can not leave therapy. If I was a healthy functioning adult I would not have gone into therapy to begin with. Since therapy with him I stopped being bulimic, I do not self harm and I do not think about killing myself on a daily basis. When I think about leaving therapy all those feelings seem to flood right back in. So I do not know anymore.

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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 07:28 AM
  #49
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Do therapist know and understand this is all happening? I am very enmeshed to my therapist and I spent the weekend trying to comfort that small child part that was in such despair. I have therapy today at 3pm. I did send him an email last night that I felt it was not the modality that he is using to help me with my issued but it was the relationship and the thought of leaving therapy brings back all the symptoms that brought me to therapy to begin with.

It is not normal to be thinking about your therapist every moment of the day. That is how my weekend went and I need it to stop. How can therapist think that is healthy?

Right now I just feel I can not leave therapy. If I was a healthy functioning adult I would not have gone into therapy to begin with. Since therapy with him I stopped being bulimic, I do not self harm and I do not think about killing myself on a daily basis. When I think about leaving therapy all those feelings seem to flood right back in. So I do not know anymore.
My therapist had no idea what she was doing to me (and possibly many other clients).

I’m fairly certain she believed I was being histrionic when I complained about side-effects. And also took no responsibility and was careless with her responses.

I truly believe that unless someone has ‘been here’ they aren’t able to appreciate how excruciating, humiliating, hopeless and anxiety provoking an attachment like this can be.

I will say, if there are improvements as a whole (ie discontinuing harmful thoughts and behaviors) it might be worth holding on. That was not the case for me.

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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 09:21 AM
  #50
I've got to the point where I no longer feel that 'working through' it is the answer, because it suggests that the feelings I have for him are an obstacle or a problem, that need to be resolved. What if the intense feelings are part of the therapy itself and what if I can use them to progress? I have experienced a shift in my thinking and feeling more recently and what has helped me move forward slightly is:
a) allowing myself to feel the feelings (especially the pain), rather than try to understand them or analyse them.
b) look at the hole/emptiness and experience it's presence as an adult, in some ways accepting it as part of me.
c) make a conscious effort to move myself forward, because there is a part of me that wants to stay in the dysfunctional attachment.

Strong feelings of love and attachment come up a lot in therapy and yet, it doesn't feel as though therapists or the therapy system are able to adequately help the process. I get the impression, that most therapists are winging it, and it's the clients who suffer.

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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 09:51 AM
  #51
I agree with TeaVicar

I am not trying to NOT feel the way I do about my T. My feelings aren't considered a problem or obstacle in our therapy - they just are. They are feelings. I cannot change or control them anyways.

The questions I ask myself now to judge whether the therapy relationship is healthy are these:

1. Is my world shrinking or expanding? (Am I losing other relationships for the sake of this relationship? Am I withdrawing from other relationships because of this one?)

2. Am I keeping secrets about this relationship? (Am I afraid to talk about things we say or do? If so, why? Is it because I know ethical boundaries are being crossed? Can determine this from that sense of "others won't understand...")

3. Are there any signs of gaslighting? (Saying one thing, doing another? Does the T tell me things I call him out on are 'just in my head?' Is he consistent in who he is?)

My relationship with C is a far cry from my relationship with S (Ex-T), who I was deeply enmeshed & codependent with. My feelings for C are strong, but I have gained in my other relationships because of my work with him - not lost. I don't keep secrets or feel any sort of "I know this crosses boundaries, but I like feeling special" feelings about C. And, he is super consistent in who he is. That doesn't mean we always connect, but he has never made me feel crazy - he definitely does not tell me things that I experience about our relationship are 'just in my head' like S used to do.

The relationship is benefiting me, expanding my world & my understanding in my other relationships. I see no problem with the strong feelings or transference I feel in this relationship.
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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 10:13 AM
  #52
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. . .

Strong feelings of love and attachment come up a lot in therapy and yet, it doesn't feel as though therapists or the therapy system are able to adequately help the process. I get the impression, that most therapists are winging it, and it's the clients who suffer.
Thanks. It feels very good to see/read you acknowledge that -- it makes me cry! A good thing, for me, I can't usually do that.

A life so ruined! Almost gone! Wish it were. . .

I chased the pipe dream of therapy -- "idealizing transference" some might call it -- but nobody that I saw in therapy helped with that, or noticed it so far as I know.

It so really sucks.
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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 10:27 AM
  #53
Who does not get transference the way we seem to? The enmeshed kind? The kind that is all consuming? If a person went into therapy who came from a family with both parents and had their needs met, verbal & pre-verbal, get that kind of transference?

Interesting how a topic like this has the most replies compared to other postings.

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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 10:28 AM
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Thanks. It feels very good to see/read you acknowledge that -- it makes me cry! A good thing, for me, I can't usually do that.

A life so ruined! Almost gone! Wish it were. . .

I chased the pipe dream of therapy -- "idealizing transference" some might call it -- but nobody that I saw in therapy helped with that, or noticed it so far as I know.

It so really sucks.


Yeah all of this.

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When a child’s emotional needs are not met and a child is repeatedly hurt and abused, this deeply and profoundly affects the child’s development. Wanting those unmet childhood needs in adulthood. Looking for safety, protection, being cherished and loved can often be normal unmet needs in childhood, and the survivor searches for these in other adults. This can be where survivors search for mother and father figures. Transference issues in counseling can occur and this is normal for childhood abuse survivors.
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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 10:50 AM
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This seems to be a frequent topic:
working through transference site:https://forums.psychcentral.com/psychotherapy/
(I think you have to copy and paste that into the search box.)

I've worked through mine, and it could get too intense at times due to childhood trauma. But I'm also very dissociative, which kind of crosses into it or blurs it or distorts it-not sure how to describe.

Both my long term Ts were psychoanalysts; from what I understand, "working through" is specific to psychoanalytic therapy. I always told him all of my feelings that were about him, and he responded with interpretations.

The way we use the terms here, I think just talking about it is working on it. Not sure how different it is, but I know that the therapist's modality has a big influence on how intense transference is (as opposed to merely the client-that I think is a myth). In the past, I've done therapy with nonpsychoanaytic Ts and had little to no transference.

I can see how people could get sucked in, with endless talk about the therapist/feelings surrounding the therapist, taking over the whole therapy. Some see that as attachment work? I see it more structural in it changes how your mind works. This is always an interesting subject to me.
 
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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 12:07 PM
  #56
I work with my transference as part of my therapy. I don't know if I am working through it or not as I'm not exactly sure what that looks like or is like. My guess is that like most therapy stuff, it will be somewhat unique for each person. What has come up recently for me is a few ideas:

- how our internal narratives are created by those that are around us, the earliest coming from our primary care givers. And maybe when we really start to believe (accept) our T's love us, that is when the beginning of our narrative towards loving ourselves start to change.

- it feels like I am creating or recreating the mommy object in my mind. Or whatever it is that we get from our primary care giver as an infant.

Again, I recognize everyone goes to therapy for different things and has different needs from therapy so any generalization made here is not to imply that this is how it will work for or is for anyone else.

I have a feeling that these are the things I will need to address/overcome in order to "work through" the transference. That said, my T is completely ok if a part of me always sees her as mommy and will welcome it whenever my mind goes there. So I am not so sure that working through the transference means eliminating it completely since transference is a natural human experience. I'm not exactly sure what it will mean to have worked through it.
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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 12:20 PM
  #57
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Who does not get transference the way we seem to? The enmeshed kind? The kind that is all consuming? If a person went into therapy who came from a family with both parents and had their needs met, verbal & pre-verbal, get that kind of transference?

Interesting how a topic like this has the most replies compared to other postings.
I came from a home where most of my parental needs were met, so I didn't experience the kind of enmeshed transference many speak of here. I agree with what someone mentioned that the term "transference" gets overused and misused a great deal. I go with the definition meaning a transfer of emotions onto someone (in this case the therapist) that originate in perhaps unresolved issues tied to someone in a person's own history. I don't personally think all feelings for a therapist are necessarily transference, and much of what gets discussed here seems less about actual transference and more about poor boundaries, unprofessional behavior of therapists, etc. that cause their own damage and strong emotions.

The term "transference" never came up in any of the therapy; however, there were times we did discuss my emotional reactions to events or people that were clearly tied to my history with individuals that I was replaying, on current events and relationships. I'm sure therapists, in their mind, were calling it transference or projection, but they weren't the types to use therapist-speak much. And we worked specifically on why I was reacting so strongly to those situations/people and how my reactions were often tied directly to those old tapes and histories and traumas from the past. Transference doesn't only occur in therapist/client situations. Mine didn't, but I'm fairly certain I experienced it in personal relationships. My husband's transference was definitely focused on our own relationship; he didn't have those transference feelings/situations with our therapist though.

So yes, even those who had stable familial relationships can have to deal with transference as the result of other traumatic or dysfunctional relationships in their lives; it doesn't have to necessarily be a family of origin issue. People can become harmed by a variety of people and events in their histories, not just by their family history. And that harm can show up in transference within personal relationships.

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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 12:59 PM
  #58
Here's the psychoanalytic method described in a simple way:

Quote:
Working through the transference entails that:

a) the therapist observes and monitors the patient's defensive pattern in the here-and-now vis-ŕ-vis the boundaries and the therapist (DT);

b) she helps the patient to focus on these patterns, to experience and express fully the underlying feelings and emotions (XT);

c) she helps the patient to link them with the same emotions, patterns of defensive behaviour and responses in his past and current relationships (DAX/TCP);

d) she helps the patient to change those maladaptive patterns in the here-and-now as well as out there (D/TC).
transference_regression_working_through

I don't think this speaks to everything that happens, but at least it is in black and white.
 
 
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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 02:08 PM
  #59
I’ve read all the comments on this thread with interest and it seems that a lot of them fall into 2 different types-those who espouse the “technical” description of ‘transference” as being rooted in the past and being played out repeatedly throughout life and those who recognise within themselves that they are in some way “addicted” to the therapist/therapeutic construct- it gives them a high at the time and terrible lows fairly soon after session has finished resulting in often wild /desperate attempts to recreate the high between sessions through often inappropriate/unnecessary email contact which adds more layers to the “addiction” eg checked to see if responded/analysis of response /wish I hadn’t emailed/why no response etc needing to devote next session to these issues-this level of pain and need surely is not maternal/paternal transference?.- erotic maybe - genuinely wanting to have a real relationship with the therapist maybe but if it consumes your waking (sometimes dreaming) life and I’ve been there- it’s an obsession or addiction -I knew that and it’s horrendously painful when you realise this and even worse when you realise that you have to pull yourself out of the situation-no amount of discussing the relationship,acting out,faking that you’re ok etc will solve it
It’s the most insidious and damaging experience of my life and although I’ve had no contact for a few months and am moving forward in other areas of my life I’m still indulging in obsessional thoughts/stories/fantasies about the bl..dy man-i hate what the relationship created but I can’t hate the man- very very scary and not somewhere I ever wish to go again-I don’t believe that “transference “ is anything like as common as it’s purported to be if it even exists-it’s a construct that suits the profession
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Default Dec 03, 2018 at 02:30 PM
  #60
Maybe a distinction can be made between what PurpleMirrors called "negative bonding" (is that a kind of enmeshment?) and what the psychoanalysts (the original "blank slate" therapists) called transference. And, yes, I agree that the profession currently can and probably does use the term transference in ways that suit them.
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