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Old 12-11-2018, 04:50 PM #11
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Default Re: psychotherapy with psychotic individuals

Guntrip did some work in this area also. Thanks for posting this. Your so smart.
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:40 AM #12
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Default Re: psychotherapy with psychotic individuals

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Originally Posted by SalingerEsme View Post
I enjoyed reading this. Bion 's work convinces me, and I liked here the elaboration on the container/ contained. Good reading.
yes Bions theories really struck me!! it explained things so well, so broken down. I truly understand now
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:40 AM #13
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Default Re: psychotherapy with psychotic individuals

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yes Bions theories really struck me!! it explained things so well, so broken down. I truly understand now
also the frame analogy really struck me as well
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:21 PM #14
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Default Re: psychotherapy with psychotic individuals

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yes Bions theories really struck me!! it explained things so well, so broken down. I truly understand now
Thanks for posting this. My T, who discloses pretty much nothing, recently told me that his therapist’s therapist was Bion. I had never even heard of Bion, and now his name is popping up everywhere. I personally find his writings sort of dense and hard to understand, although the topics are interesting to me (like containment and the frame, etc).
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Old 12-12-2018, 07:37 PM #15
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Default Re: psychotherapy with psychotic individuals

I only skimmed the article, but I don't see how it is ethical to use psychotherapy to "treat" psychosis unless someone has done differential diagnosis to rule out biological and environmental factors. The discussion of etiology in the article seems to cover only psych/existential causes, and much of it is the typical speculative, convoluted madness favored by the psych industry.

Sleep disorders can apparently lead to psychotic symptoms. And the orthomolecular psychiatry guys have shown that mineral therapies with things like zinc and manganese can erase psychosis. Microwave radiation, now pervasive, can also have neuro-psych effects.

As someone said, "thinking is as biologic as digestion".

God help someone in such a state who is run thru the MH maze by a bunch of people wielding these extravagant almost delusional narratives and concepts. Shudder...
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Old 12-12-2018, 08:04 PM #16
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Default Re: psychotherapy with psychotic individuals

Also my sense from that article is that the patient is mainly viewed as an object of curiosity or play thing, whose primary role is as fodder for the pipe-smokers' self-involved insane ramblings.
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Old 12-12-2018, 09:38 PM #17
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Default Re: psychotherapy with psychotic individuals

Well, microwave wasnt even invented yet at the time of many of these writings, and nobody else was really even trying or willing to do talk therapy with people labeled psychotic.
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Old 12-13-2018, 06:58 AM #18
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Thanks for the article. If it resonates with you and you find it helpful, that's great. I think most clinicians these days that psychosis is a physiological/biological condition primarily, but that does not mean that an individual's own life experiences and environment don't play a role - those have an effect via influencing biological processes as well. Therapy is also a life experience.

There was also Hyman Spotnitz, a psychoanalyst that invented what is known as "Modern Psychoanalysis". He apparently worked with many psychotic people and claims that the therapy alone eliminated the symptoms of some. He wrote a book called Modern Psychoanalysis of the Schizophrenic Patient - it is not an easy read and I don't agree with the simplicity of what he proposes, but interesting. It's a method working primarily with anger/aggression in therapy and they claim it would work for everyone/most people because the root of most psych problems is related to repressed or misdirected aggression as a response to not being able to express it in childhood. My first T practices this method. I personally did not find it useful and I don't think my issues have much to do with aggression, but I can easily see how it is relevant to many people. I just doubt that many Ts are able to work with aggression from clients in a truly respectful, constructive way, it definitely takes a certain personality and hardcore discipline IMO.
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Old 12-13-2018, 08:06 AM #19
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Default Re: psychotherapy with psychotic individuals

Quote:
Originally Posted by BudFox View Post
I only skimmed the article, but I don't see how it is ethical to use psychotherapy to "treat" psychosis unless someone has done differential diagnosis to rule out biological and environmental factors. The discussion of etiology in the article seems to cover only psych/existential causes, and much of it is the typical speculative, convoluted madness favored by the psych industry.

Sleep disorders can apparently lead to psychotic symptoms. And the orthomolecular psychiatry guys have shown that mineral therapies with things like zinc and manganese can erase psychosis. Microwave radiation, now pervasive, can also have neuro-psych effects.

As someone said, "thinking is as biologic as digestion".

God help someone in such a state who is run thru the MH maze by a bunch of people wielding these extravagant almost delusional narratives and concepts. Shudder...
there's no definitive answer as to what causes psychosis. yes certain things alleviate symptoms for some individuals, such as diet changes. as far as me, I've done diet eliminations and have also had other things ruled out via MRIs and cat scans.

it's important to keep in mind these are THEORIES much like everything else in this world. you don't have to subscribe to anything bud fox. no one is forcing you to do anything

I understand you are bitter about psychotherapy. but I don't find your attempts to project your bitterness onto those of us who find psychotherapy helpful.

to each their own though!
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:35 PM #20
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Default Re: psychotherapy with psychotic individuals

The evidence for some bio/enviro causes is solid. Sleep disorder for one. Also, some parasitic and infectious organisms. And zinc deficiency.

These are straightforward disease models that help put the rube goldberg theories of psychologists in context.

I think that paper badly needs reality testing from people outside the MH system bubble.

If you only want comments that support your beliefs, maybe you should specify that.
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