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Member Since Dec 2016
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#1
So the other day I wrote this to T...and I wanted to share because I’m curious to see what y’all have to say about this...:P
“I had a thought earlier…so you know how I was describing how I was training [dog] by rewarding good behavior and ignoring bad behavior? You know, textbook operant conditioning stuff. Then I was realizing…that’s not too much different than what you did with me lol. Because basically, what you did is that you wouldn’t let me have what I wanted, aka talking to you, because of the behavior, so in operant conditioning world I believe that would be negative punishment (which I feel like comes with a negative connotation because of the nature of those two words, but I use it in a purely terminological way), i.e. taking away something away I wanted because you didn’t want to encourage the behavior. What I did with [dog] was a different subset, positive reinforcement, but it works the same, regardless. Because I guess the positive reinforcement today was that when I acted in an effective way, I got to talk to you. So basically, I learned that not only did I not get to talk about what was originally upsetting me, but also that all I really got myself was two days of misery and lost productivity for acting out, whereas I likely would’ve gotten to talk to you on Tuesday or Wednesday if I hadn’t acted out…so yes, I see the consequences to my own behavior…and yes I will think about that next time I consider doing this…and so yes, your tactic was effective…even though I was so, so angry and upset because of it yesterday…But what I was doing isn’t unlike what [dog] does when I leave. She acts out/throws a tantrum by barking incessantly (which unfortunately effects many people…), where as I threw my “adult” version of a temper tantrum by doing pretty much every self-destructive behavior I could conjure up in that time period. So yeah…I know what I did…I get why you did what you did…and although I didn’t like it at the time, it was effective. Because reward and punishment is easy to understand. Actually, if I remember correctly, it’s one of the earliest stages of cognitive development, being able to learn that way. But yeah…tangents aside…I learned that humans can be trained like dogs, and that therapy is pretty much a much more complex version of dog training…lol jk. It would be seriously great (and also not so great) if our minds were as simplistic as that of a dog. Too bad we have these things called association cortices, a limbic system, and god knows what else that are way more complex than that of a dog, and make us have complex abstract thoughts. I blame primarily the prefrontal cortex on this one.” |
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SalingerEsme
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SalingerEsme, seeker33
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Poohbah
Member Since Nov 2017
Location: Europe
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#2
This makes absolutely perfect sense. It's exactly what I've been thinking about too.
__________________ Complex trauma Highly sensitive person I love nature, simplicity and minimalism |
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MRT6211
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#3
I don't recognise that in my therapy.
When T continued to respond gently to me and still allow me to reach out to her during one of my less than better days. I felt totally lost. I had been raised by damaged adult children that reacted to me. To have a functioning adult respond and continue to treat me with respect no matter Mt behaviour was a Hugh difference in my life. Find a functioning adult. Not an adult child Thats jumped into the mental health field to satisfy themselves. |
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RaineD
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Grand Poohbah
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#4
Quote:
My T dislikes dogs, so he would not be amused by these playful, tongue in cheek comparisons Esme's T= Dog training Quote:
__________________ Living things don’t all require/ light in the same degree. Louise Gluck Last edited by SalingerEsme; Dec 22, 2018 at 06:59 AM.. |
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MRT6211
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#5
Well I think there are a lot of differences between therapy and dog training, because humans are different to dogs! But I do think your observation is interesting and I think you are right - therapists probably have to tread a carareful line between being supportive of their clients but without inadvertently reinforcing unhelpful behaviours.
The few times that I had episodes of SH, my T didn't act surprised or anything and didn't spend a long time talking about it. He was still nice to me as usual - but I think with hindsight that he was being careful about this. If he had shown a big reaction to SH then at some level that might have become an unhealthy way for me to communicate my pain and my feelings, rather than talking which is a healthier and less destructive way. |
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MRT6211, SalingerEsme
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Poohbah
Member Since Oct 2018
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#6
It's not really too complex. I spent 25 years as a R+ dog trainer. Dogs and humans are very similar in their learning styles, and yes - both respond well to positive reinforcement. Dogs also have very well documented physiological responses to stress and triggers. In fact, many dogs are euthanized every year because of this.
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MRT6211
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Magnate
Member Since Oct 2018
Location: USA
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#7
My therapy wasn't about reward and punishment, not by my therapist.
However, it is normal human behavior to learn through experience. When things go well and turn out positively, we are likely to continue what worked. When things don't go well, we are likely to learn from mistakes, rethink things, approach life differently. That's nothing new. We've known about that aspect of human development and learning for ages. |
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MRT6211, piggy momma
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Grand Magnate
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#8
it does sound like your therapy has a thread of behavioral modification as part of it, and the original Skinnerian ideas of stimulus-response have their roots in animal behavior. Thirty years ago, my Psych 100 class trained pigeons, like they did in WWII (the wartime experience was not really so successful whereas my pigeon was).
What might be worth discussing is the use of positive rewards rather than punishment, which I believe is more effective in shaping behavior. Take a look at the newish research on corporal punishment, it's ever so more clear that punishment doesn't work so well to shape behavior in kids and it has a lot of side effects on kids' wellbeing and the relationship between kids and parents. I think the same is true for dogs, teaching them what to do rather than punishing them, especially during the housebreaking period. Punishing dogs seems to end up with really messed up dogs who slink away to poop in someone's closet. I think from previous threads you indicate that you signed up for this kind of tough love (sorry if I'm confusing you with another poster), but even if you haven't, only you can choose to modify your behavior regardless of your T's approach. And you can't force her into doing something because you think it would be better for you, at least without negotiating for it. You are the subject of the behavior modification and therefore the one who has to agree to be modified or not. |
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MRT6211
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MRT6211
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Member
Member Since May 2017
Location: USA
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#9
Behaviorism is behaviorism, it's true. And the fact that behaviorist therapy modalities feel like dog training is a part of why I have no interest in them for myself. It's not clear from your description whether what your therapist did was more behaviorism-based or more about underlying boundary setting, though.
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Member
Member Since Dec 2016
Location: New York
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#10
Quote:
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Anne2.0
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#11
My therapist does CBT/DBT with me, so a lot of it is about behavior modification. Often that means helping me see the consequences of my own actions, which is what she did this time. The first thing she said to me when I saw her the day after the day that she didn’t call me was “so, why didn’t I call you?” She helps me through seeing consequences, and unfortunately, this time she had to be the one who enacted them because my behavior involved her and she had to not encourage that behavior. I don’t resent it, I think that in this case, those consequences are necessary and they are never enacted just to “punish” me, only to help me.
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Anne2.0
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#12
Every therapist-patient relationship is different, but that was not my experience with therapy. Within the therapy frame, my therapist and I had a real relationship. He would get frustrated, annoyed, angry but not in an effort to manipulate or train me. We did have a parent-teenager dynamic, and he would, at times, try to get me to do what he wanted me to by making threats he would never actually carry out. But that was more the result of his actual frustration rather than any attempt at manipulation.
I think he would have been offended if I told him he was training me like a dog. I can imagine the look on his face if I told him something like that. I think it would hurt his feelings. No, therapy for me was all about the relationship, the connection, and the love. |
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Salmon77
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