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Default Apr 04, 2019 at 05:09 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Anne2.0 View Post
I wasn't much of an English student but I love a good metaphor. The parenting metaphors tend to fall flat with me, at least as they apply to therapy. But I think his email clarification was great and exactly right. Just like it was hard for me to imagine (and it was for my now teen son) that he would want to leave the house one day, it turns out he actually does. And so do I Not because I am caring for him less, now that he has a part-time job, drives his own car, does his own laundry, and cooks for himself. I'm not caring for him "less" because I'm still giving him everything he needs and wants. He just doesn't need the same things as he used to.

I still do drive him places even though he doesn't always "need" it, and sometimes cook for him or help him put his laundry away. He has transformed very recently from someone who would prefer me to do things for him to someone who says, "I've got to learn how to do these things for myself." While he may desire some "extra help" from time to time, he truly does prefer to do it himself.

I think it's hard to imagine feeling differently than you do about T's care, whether it's wanting reassurance, responses to email, or anything "care" related. But there will come a time when that will change, and it's not that you will have something taken away from you, but you will be stronger and more secure in your own abilities to care for yourself.

Thanks, Anne. I appreciate your insights. I think that's part of what it is, that it's hard for me to see right now how those desires could change. T said something similar today. But that's a way for both of us to tell I'm getting closer to the end of therapy, that I'm looking to him less for things like reassurance and support. And he's not trying to push me toward that, it will just happen naturally. And it takes as long as it takes. It helped to hear all of that.
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 10:53 AM
  #182
T Thursday, on anniversary of termination with ex-MC. Went back and sat down. T started right in with stuff from my email. He reiterated something he'd said there, that it's about what I feel I need and am ready for, not what T thinks. He wanted to make sure I understood that. I said I did and appreciated his clarifying.

I talked a bit about ex-T and how I'd seen her for 6 years. It seems like I should be close to being done by now. And with coming in twice a week, it seems I should have made more progress, because that was part of my thinking behind twice a week. T: "Well, if you were only coming once a week, maybe you'd have made a lot less progress." Me: "True, there's no 'Sliding Doors' option where I could see where I'd be now if I'd done once a week." T: "And with the 6 years, you could be on a 6-year path with me as well." Me: "OK." It made me feel better in a way hearing that.

T was suddenly thoughtful. T: "I'm forming an idea here." He thought for a minute. T: "OK, I'm going to share this, but it might be more batter than cake." Me: "OK." T: "I wonder if my sharing some of my goals for you recently was a mistake. If you're trying to be a 'good student' and trying to do more than you're ready for right now, because you know what I'm hoping you'll achieve." Me: "Hm...that could be. I have to think about it." T: "As I said, it's only half-baked right now." Me: "yeah, but it makes some sense."

Me: "Can we talk some about ex-MC now? You'd said in the email that you wanted me to talk more about how I felt abandoned." T: "Sure." Me: "I was afraid in asking me to explain it, you were trying to suggest you didn't think I was abandoned." T: "Well, I think you both played a part in deciding to leave." Me: "Yeah, I was talking with someone about this, and they said that 'rejection' might be a more appropriate term. They're probably right." T: "I definitely understand how you felt rejected." Me: "OK, good. Because I'm not sure ex-MC ever really understood that." I forget what he said to that.

I said it's also hard because the termination was kind of abrupt, like we had a regular session, then just in the last couple minutes was when I said I didn't think I could continue seeing him. That he'd said we could take a break and decide later, and I said no, I thought I needed to be done, not leave it open. And that was about it. And when we shook hands at the end, he just said the usual "It was good to see you." Which felt kind of weird. T: "That does seem weird."

T asked if I wished we'd had more of a regular termination session. I said I kind of did, but hadn't he also said those are rare? He said true termination sessions are, but can be good to at least spend part of final session talking about it. How he's had some clients come in, have a normal session with him, then when he gets out his phone to schedule, they're like, "Today is my last session." He said how that can be weird for him, too. That he would have wanted even 10-15 minutes to talk about the ending. Me: "I guess you probably wonder what happened." T: "Partly that, but also wanting to talk about how they'd progressed in therapy, their achievements."

I said it would have been nice to have had that with ex-MC, that I thought he'd have kept us longer to do that, as he often did, but maybe he had already kept us longer that day? We came up with the idea of writing a letter to him with what I wished I'd shared. T: "Then you can bring it in and we can discuss it and determine whether you'd actually want to share it with him or not." I said I'd try that (haven't done it yet).

I said part of me just wished I could sit down and talk to him, like one friend had said, "Why don't you just schedule an individual session?" And I said I was sure he wouldn't be willing to meet with just me, didn't even know if he'd be willing to meet with me and H. She also said maybe I could just meet him for coffee, and I said there was no way he'd allow that. T said he could understand ex-MC, with the way things happened, not feeling comfortable meeting with just me. Because he's thinking of how I was a year ago. But that T knows how I am now, and if he were to talk to him, he'd tell him that he didn't think there was any threat of anything inappropriate going on (I assume he meant from my end?) Which was a complete hypothetical, but it was good to hear that T does think I'm different regarding him now.

I said that's part of why in the past (like a year ago) I'd asked if it was possible to set up a meeting between me, T, and ex-MC, so that T could be almost like a mediator/third party. I said something about meeting in T's office if we did that. T: "I think ex-MC would feel better in his office. If he came here,it might seem more like I was doing couples counseling with the two of you." Me: "Hm, maybe. Though I'd feel more comfortable here." I said maybe we could discuss that possibility more in the future, and T agreed. (NOTE: I'm fully aware that this is likely a terrible idea--I just feel sort of stuck in my grieving at times, and wonder what other things could possibly help. This is not something I'd just dive into without thoroughly discussing any possible consequences with T--and T wouldn't let me do that anyway.)

I said I wanted to talk a little more about what I was feeling Tuesday morning that led me to email T. How I'd tried to get through without emailing, but then that morning I basically fell to my knees sobbing in the shower. That I felt the same ache that I get with paternal transference. I wasn't sure if it was mostly about ex-MC, or if some of the stuff T had talked about--bird leaving nest, not throwing me in deep end before I was ready--triggered some paternal transference for him. And it was weird for me because I tend not to feel that toward him. Maybe some authority figure stuff but it's a bit different from paternal stuff.

T asked me to explain more what the paternal transference felt like. So I talked about the literal ache in my chest I would feel at times that seemed like it was coming from an earlier time in my life. Especially if I felt rejected by ex-MC, like when he was initially denying me a second individual session. Said how because he was so accepting, the rejection probably felt much worse. And seemed to go back to something from childhood, but I wasn't sure what.

T said he was having trouble understanding. I said I was doing the best I could to explain the feeling. He said he understood the physical feelings, just not the emotional. I said I was really trying, not sure how to get him to understand. T: "It's not just that I don't understand. I don't think you really understand it either. We were talking about the batter before--I don't think this is even that, I think this is just a bunch of ingredients sitting on the counter." Me: "Hm, yeah I guess I don't fully understand it, and that's part of what makes it so difficult. Because the feeling is different from when I have some sort of romantic rejection--I've had that plenty of times in my life, so I know what that feels like. This just seems like something else.

Talked more about effect ex-MC had on me. Me (crying, as I had been much of session): "It's like at times I thought maybe he was the person who could fill the void inside of me." (I realized that sounded vaguely sexual and tried to think of a better comparison, but they were all things like "fill the cup" so I gave up.) Me: "And maybe he did a bit, but then it was like that chance was gone. So maybe I'd just have to go my whole life with that void. Even though, I mean, even he said he couldn't fill it, I had to do that for myself. But it still felt that he could." I forget what T said to that--he seemed understanding.

More about role ex-MC played for me. Me: "At times, I thought he was one of the most important people in my life. Not like, at that particular time, but ever." T said that was understandable, as he seemed to give me so much understanding and acceptance. Me: "I used to think he understood me more than anyone, and that's why it was hard to leave. I mean, I think that's why I'd often cry on the way home from sessions, because I was in this really accepting place, then had to return to the world." T said in a way it's why crack addicts keep chasing the drug, because nothing else could make them feel that way. Me: "So you're comparing ex-MC to crack?" T: "Maybe. And crack is cheaper than therapy!" (He said if I shared that comment, to make sure it was in context!)

I think that's when I said I knew we had to stop. Maybe we had a brief conversation about something else? Not sure. Confirmed next week, I threw away my tissue pile and went over and paid. T, shaking my hand, "Have a good weekend!" Me: "You too." No "take care" this time. I looked back at him, as I still felt pretty emotional, but he was busy on his computer, presumably sending my invoice.

Got really upset and emotional later that night, but not going into all that here...
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 11:45 AM
  #183
You travel together to the deep, beating heart of the matter, the apex of vulnerability, the very stuff good therapy is made of, and... he makes a joke about crack.

Reading that, I feel like Charlie Brown when Lucy pulls away the football at the very last second. I can't imagine experiencing it in the moment.
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 11:51 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by ElectricManatee View Post
You travel together to the deep, beating heart of the matter, the apex of vulnerability, the very stuff good therapy is made of, and... he makes a joke about crack.

Reading that, I feel like Charlie Brown when Lucy pulls away the football at the very last second. I can't imagine experiencing it in the moment.
I did not see it that way at all. No wonder I have no idea what people are talking about when they describe therapy.

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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 12:04 PM
  #185
Oh, i dont think he was making a joke. Maybe LT did, but i think the T was just saying about chasing the addiction.

It sounds like what T was getting at is this. I know i keep saying, LT, you YELLED at him! But maybe the real question is, WHY did you yell at him? Actually, there was nothing wrong with yelling at him, but it was the wrong time and place. Plus he wasnt your t. Maybe thats when and where ex-MC realized HE was doing the wrong thing, he had stepped FAR outside his role.

You werent looking for anything different from what my t gave me. But you only get it in a very grasshopper moment.
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 12:05 PM
  #186
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I did not see it that way at all. No wonder I have no idea what people are talking about when they describe therapy.
Oh no! We agreed again!!

Eta - i only mean EM's second paragraph, but im taking it!!
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 12:11 PM
  #187
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Oh no! We agreed again!!

Eta - i only mean EM's second paragraph, but im taking it!!
Normally this would cause me to retreat to my bed with gin and a cool compress -but this time I think we agree but not for the same reasons. And only to the part about lucy and charlie brown.
A comfort to us both I am certain.

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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 12:22 PM
  #188
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Oh, i dont think he was making a joke. Maybe LT did, but i think the T was just saying about chasing the addiction.
But if you look at what drugs do to the brain, they co-opt pleasure centers that exist for a reason, evolutionarily speaking. There isn't anything wrong with feeling deep, intense pleasure from a strong emotional connection. Primates are wired to do that. If that's "chasing a high," then sign me up.

Comparing this natural urge to connect to a crack addiction (which is a much maligned drug, I might add) seems more than a tad judgmental. It's not whether ex-MC was an appropriate target but what that whole episode means about what LT needs. I don't think people who have historically had their emotional needs met would end up in that situation, so exploring that dynamic seems more important than cutting off the source.

ETA: This isn't exactly the first time Dr. T has derailed a meaningful moment with a joke. I recognize myself in that, cutting the tension by cracking wise when the moments gets intense so I can bypass the unpleasant feelings. So maybe I'm reading too much into this, but that's therapy, baby.
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 12:33 PM
  #189
Thats what im saying, i dont think t was being flippant about it at all. I think he was saying the draw was very strong. Acknowledging exactly what you said, that emotional needs were not met.

Again, i think she derailed, not he. And she does it a lot. Maybe he gives her an opening, but then she flings that thang! We're comedians, its what we do! Its a hard habit to break, but you just gotta come back and say, okay bad joke, what i was thinking or feeling was (dull and boring statement).
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 12:53 PM
  #190
I personally would say meeting with him again is a bad idea. You would probably see him and all the attachment would flood back and if things went south, that would only add to the pain. Plus your h has issues with him and you and I don't see that going well. As hard as it is, letting him go and moving on is probably the best for you.

It's ok to miss him and try to remember the good he brought to your life. Maybe someday your h can fill that void for you. I truly think marriage counseling would be great for you guys if you can talk him into it again

I'd definitely highly advise against asking about coffee etc because for ts to even consider that, there's supposed to be a long period of no contact and even then are you prepared for rejection?

Dealing with grief sucks no doubt but you have a good t now. He's been helping you just as well.
I wouldn't suggest putting a time frame in your mind of 6 yrs, just it takes as long as it takes

If you go to weekly again at some point and need t less, that's a good thing. There's always time to go back if needed. Maybe 6 yrs was all you needed her and maybe less or more with this t. Who knows? Just focus on your goals and let the process happen as it does

Hope today session went ok.

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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 12:58 PM
  #191
I think it was an apt comparison. Well adjusted people usually don't become drug addicts, either, and to insinuate that it's somehow "better" to be addicted to the endorphins or whatever that are released from one unhealthy behavior than another seems judgemental. I think you might be projecting your own feelings about drug addiction onto this therapist, EM. And yes, I think the support and acceptance offered by ex-MC were unhealthy. They were fake. The feelings LT experienced in response to the external stimuli of these fake reassurances are in fact similar to the relief a drug user feels when they use. It is not normal. There's a difference between healthy connection and what happened with ex-MC.

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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 01:18 PM
  #192
The relationship itself wasn't healthy, but I place the blame for that squarely on ex-MC. It was his responsibility as a therapist to keep it from going off the rails, and he failed miserably. My point is that Dr. T seemed to be pathologizing the urge to connect and feel deeply understood. It's not about the trainwreck that the relationship ultimately became but about the deeper meaning behind why it happened in the first place.
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 01:19 PM
  #193
Also, manatee, i am just in awe of your excellent writing. What did biden say of obama? Youre so articulate. More than that. I just throw little words out there, you actually put out big thoughts with big words. Im the trump-tweet of pc but with better spelling!

Eta - to cross-post, yes, i agree. They were finally getting there. It even changed my question to her about the yelling, and that took a year!
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 01:48 PM
  #194
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Also, manatee, i am just in awe of your excellent writing. What did biden say of obama? Youre so articulate. More than that. I just throw little words out there, you actually put out big thoughts with big words. Im the trump-tweet of pc but with better spelling!
Haha thank you. What can I say, I'm overeducated and underemployed. I am also clearly in the minority on this thread, which is always interesting.
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 01:52 PM
  #195
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Haha thank you. What can I say, I'm overeducated and underemployed. I am also clearly in the minority on this thread, which is always interesting.
I always agree with you! But nobody can tell because nobody understands me.
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 01:58 PM
  #196
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It's ok to miss him and try to remember the good he brought to your life. Maybe someday your h can fill that void for you. I truly think marriage counseling would be great for you guys if you can talk him into it again.
I think this is an excellent suggestion. A healthy, well-functioning marriage can meet a lot of your attachment needs. There are far fewer limitations than in the therapeutic relationship, and you get the added benefit of a self-esteem boost from seeing that you're capable of meeting your partner's needs too.

I think sometimes it can be a lot easier to focus on getting more of something healthy and productive (stronger relationship with H) than to try to forcibly stop yourself from wanting something less healthy or productive (more contact with ex-MC). If you direct your attention elsewhere, eventually the urge toward the unhealthy thing will subside. Or at least that has been my experience with relationships that I know I need to leave alone.
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 02:19 PM
  #197
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I think sometimes it can be a lot easier to focus on getting more of something healthy and productive (stronger relationship with H) than to try to forcibly stop yourself from wanting something less healthy or productive (more contact with ex-MC). If you direct your attention elsewhere, eventually the urge toward the unhealthy thing will subside.
I don't understand how this is any less pathologizing. The message is the same: that there is an unhealthy behavior.

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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 02:25 PM
  #198
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I don't understand how this is any less pathologizing. The message is the same: that there is an unhealthy behavior.
What is stopping you from doing something good for yourself? What is keeping you from the bird in your hand? Why cant you enjoy what you have been given?

You know, the abe lincoln thing about the secret to happiness is wanting what you have, not having what you want.

This is my big bugaboo. Butbif you solve it, at the end, you HAVE that bird in hand, rather than a lack of feeling for something you dont have.
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 02:28 PM
  #199
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Oh, i dont think he was making a joke. Maybe LT did, but i think the T was just saying about chasing the addiction.

It sounds like what T was getting at is this. I know i keep saying, LT, you YELLED at him! But maybe the real question is, WHY did you yell at him? Actually, there was nothing wrong with yelling at him, but it was the wrong time and place. Plus he wasnt your t. Maybe thats when and where ex-MC realized HE was doing the wrong thing, he had stepped FAR outside his role.

You werent looking for anything different from what my t gave me. But you only get it in a very grasshopper moment.

I also don't feel he was making a joke/making light of it. I think he was more trying to say how intense the feelings can be. I mean, I guess the "crack is cheaper" part was a joke, but the rest of the conversation was very serious. And he's said before that he often tries to lighten up intense moments, and this was near the end of session, so maybe he was trying to help me come down a bit from the emotions before I left.
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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 02:34 PM
  #200
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But if you look at what drugs do to the brain, they co-opt pleasure centers that exist for a reason, evolutionarily speaking. There isn't anything wrong with feeling deep, intense pleasure from a strong emotional connection. Primates are wired to do that. If that's "chasing a high," then sign me up.

Comparing this natural urge to connect to a crack addiction (which is a much maligned drug, I might add) seems more than a tad judgmental. It's not whether ex-MC was an appropriate target but what that whole episode means about what LT needs. I don't think people who have historically had their emotional needs met would end up in that situation, so exploring that dynamic seems more important than cutting off the source.

ETA: This isn't exactly the first time Dr. T has derailed a meaningful moment with a joke. I recognize myself in that, cutting the tension by cracking wise when the moments gets intense so I can bypass the unpleasant feelings. So maybe I'm reading too much into this, but that's therapy, baby.

I honestly didn't feel judged by his comparison. He also knows I struggle with alcohol. And has said numerous times how difficult addiction can be. And today we talked some more about the emotional needs. He seems (both Thursday and today) to understand what an important role ex-MC played for me. And how it ties to unmet needs from childhood. I think the crack comparison was more how good those feelings can be if I'm not used to having them. Today he said how termination might have almost felt like if I had been blind or deaf and briefly been given the opportunity to see or hear, then had it taken away. He said it was probably a bad comparison, but I said I saw how it could fit.

He does tend to joke about things at times, but so do I. He's apologized for it before, said he was trying to lighten the moment. Often in there, I'm quite emotional, lots of crying, so I think at times he's trying to pull me out of that a bit, especially when it's near the end of session. I do see how it could bother someone. And there have been a couple times when it's bothered me, and I've said something.
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