[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

I think it was an apt comparison. Well adjusted people usually don't become drug addicts, either, and to insinuate that it's somehow "better" to be addicted to the endorphins or whatever that are released from one unhealthy behavior than another seems judgemental. I think you might be projecting your own feelings about drug addiction onto this therapist, EM. And yes, I think the support and acceptance offered by ex-MC were unhealthy. They were fake. The feelings LT experienced in response to the external stimuli of these fake reassurances are in fact similar to the relief a drug user feels when they use. It is not normal. There's a difference between healthy connection and what happened with ex-MC.

I'm not sure they were necessarily fake, per se. However, I don't think they served my best interest. Particularly being in marriage counseling, shouldn't he have been trying to help us figure out how H could support me in that way? It did feel like a drug at times. Where I'd be reaching out to him via email or text to get a fix. And felt almost withdrawal the day after seeing him. I think T is trying more to model a healthy connection as compared to ex-MC. He once said that ex-MC seemed enmeshed with me. And I'd agree with that.

[susannahsays]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

The relationship itself wasn't healthy, but I place the blame for that squarely on ex-MC. It was his responsibility as a therapist to keep it from going off the rails, and he failed miserably. My point is that Dr. T seemed to be pathologizing the urge to connect and feel deeply understood. It's not about the trainwreck that the relationship ultimately became but about the deeper meaning behind why it happened in the first place.

I don't really think blame has to do with why his behavior was appealing in the first place. And of course I'm not blaming LT for what he did. But there is a difference between having an urge to connect, and having a void, which is the word LT herself used to describe how she felt.

Lots of people say they have a void inside of them, and people deal with it in different ways. Some people do drugs. Others try to fill the void with food. Still others jump from relationship to relationship or have meaningless and unsatisfying sex with strangers looking for something to fill the void. Just because LT isn't going around sleeping with strangers or shooting up heroin doesn't actually mean she feels less pain than someone who does cope with the void that way. In not "pathologizing," I think there can be a risk of minimizing the issue.

[susannahsays]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I'm not sure they were necessarily fake, per se. However, I don't think they served my best interest. Particularly being in marriage counseling, shouldn't he have been trying to help us figure out how H could support me in that way? It did feel like a drug at times. Where I'd be reaching out to him via email or text to get a fix. And felt almost withdrawal the day after seeing him. I think T is trying more to model a healthy connection as compared to ex-MC. He once said that ex-MC seemed enmeshed with me. And I'd agree with that.

It seems like he wasn't very honest all the time. Like he just said what he thought you wanted to hear because that was easiest. That's what I mean by fake.

[SalingerEsme]

I completely agree with this. Psychic pain can be as untenable as physical pain.

Originally Posted by susannahsays

Lots of people say they have a void inside of them, and people deal with it in different ways. Some people do drugs. Others try to fill the void with food. Still others jump from relationship to relationship or have meaningless and unsatisfying sex with strangers looking for something to fill the void. . . Just because LT isn't going around sleeping with strangers or shooting up heroin doesn't actually mean she feels less pain than someone who does cope with the void that way. In not "pathologizing," I think there can be a risk of minimizing the issue.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

I don't really think blame has to do with why his behavior was appealing in the first place. And of course I'm not blaming LT for what he did. But there is a difference between having an urge to connect, and having a void, which is the word LT herself used to describe how she felt.

Lots of people say they have a void inside of them, and people deal with it in different ways. Some people do drugs. Others try to fill the void with food. Still others jump from relationship to relationship or have meaningless and unsatisfying sex with strangers looking for something to fill the void. Just because LT isn't going around sleeping with strangers or shooting up heroin doesn't actually mean she feels less pain than someone who does cope with the void that way. In not "pathologizing," I think there can be a risk of minimizing the issue.

Thanks, this makes sense. And actually, I got the word "void" from ex-MC. At one point in session, he turned to me and said, "Do you ever feel like there's just this void inside you that no one can fill?" And I thought for a minute, then said "Yes." At the time, he said he couldn't fill it, H couldn't feel it, that no person could fill it. That he and ex-T (current T at time) could help me with it, but it's ultimately up to me to fill. Yet at times, it felt like he did try to fill it. And would say stuff about how working through the transference for him could help rewrite past stories from childhood.

That's actually something we talked about in session today, how it was like he sold me on this thing that working through transference could do. So I felt like if I kept working with him, then I would get that result. And in terminating, it was like I lost my chance for that. In a way...I guess it's almost like he was some scam artist trying to sell me on a miracle cure. (These are my words.) T doesn't seem to think that "working through transference" in that way really works, or at least he doesn't understand how it does.

[SalingerEsme]

Me: "And maybe he did a bit, but then it was like that chance was gone. So maybe I'd just have to go my whole life with that void. Even though, I mean, even he said he couldn't fill it, I had to do that for myself. But it still felt that he could."

Your words here touched me so much, bc for a while it seemed like ex mc could cure all that heartache.

My T and I talk about how there is an unfillableness in us, in all of us, as part of the human condition. Then though, in a few people, there is the anguish without words. Bion described that this comes from a misfitting babyhood that cant be remembered, but will be felt on and on into adulthood as sorrow beyond language.

Ex MC wasn't able to "stay alive" in the theraputic space between you for which he was responsible and offer respite until you outgrew the need for him to do so, but current T seems to be able. The irony is he isn't quite the addictive catnip ex mc was, likely bc he does less merging( is healthier ) .

I do think ex MC didn't do very good MCing with you, but was drawn to your seeking and searching for solutions to experiencing that void enough that he formed a bond with you more than with your H. When you think about that, I cant help but wonder if the void was more mutual that he allowed for at the ending.

My T is very clued into the idea that addicts actually seek to merge with other humans first, and then find that merging can never be sustained and try to discover a more reliable, controllable source of respite bc the pain is that bad.

I wish ex MC had been better balanced- kept that sensitivity and compassion, but with a steadier compass for setting your course.

I am very sorry for this loss you experienced.

[unaluna]

LT, you didnt "terminate" with ex-MC, you stopped. You just ended. Termination to my mind is more like weaning, it's a process, it's not going cold turkey, to continue the crack metaphor. Idk if you can wean off crack, cuz for sure thats where the metaphor breaks down! Its not about what youre off, its about your new path. Sippy cup!

[goatee]

There’s a lot here, and this isn’t really central to the conversation, but just wanted to say that I was really impressed at how you were able to stop seeing ex MC. That you had the strength to walk away after he had hurt the relationship irreparably and that you didn’t continue trying to stay with a broken thing just because you were so attached. I think that took a lot of strength and courage.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by goatee

There’s a lot here, and this isn’t really central to the conversation, but just wanted to say that I was really impressed at how you were able to stop seeing ex MC. That you had the strength to walk away after he had hurt the relationship irreparably and that you didn’t continue trying to stay with a broken thing just because you were so attached. I think that took a lot of strength and courage.

I agree, I know I could have never done it. Very brave LT

Originally Posted by goatee

There’s a lot here, and this isn’t really central to the conversation, but just wanted to say that I was really impressed at how you were able to stop seeing ex MC. That you had the strength to walk away after he had hurt the relationship irreparably and that you didn’t continue trying to stay with a broken thing just because you were so attached. I think that took a lot of strength and courage.

Me too....and I give LT extra credit for cluing in on the enmeshment, and how it is unhealthy and though may offer short-term fixes, is detrimental in the long run.

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

The relationship itself wasn't healthy, but I place the blame for that squarely on ex-MC. It was his responsibility as a therapist to keep it from going off the rails, and he failed miserably. My point is that Dr. T seemed to be pathologizing the urge to connect and feel deeply understood. It's not about the trainwreck that the relationship ultimately became but about the deeper meaning behind why it happened in the first place.

I didn't take it as pathologizing at all. (Not trying to change your view-just adding mine.)

Before I read your reply, I thought drug addiction was an apt analogy in this context. In the conversation, both T and LT say they don't understand where the intense longing feelings comes from--it doesn't make sense. I see a strong similarities with drug addiction--it doesn't make sense, either, why someone would make a white powder, for example, so important that you'll let it take over your life. It's that powerful. Transference can be that powerful, too, and can take over your life.

I also see it as a stark indicator that those feelings had little to do with MC himself; rather, they have everything to do about past hurts and unresolved developmental issues. Little LT.

Transference is intense and powerful. Transference distorts and can 'blind you' to reality. People with severe drug addiction can seem they are under some kind of spell, disconnected from reality, which is normally referred to as being in denial. Transference, when that intense, leads to reality disconnect as well.

[LonesomeTonight]

Aw, thanks Goatee, DP, and Octoberful.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by octoberful

I didn't take it as pathologizing at all. (Not trying to change your view-just adding mine.)

Before I read your reply, I thought drug addiction was an apt analogy in this context. In the conversation, both T and LT say they don't understand where the intense longing feelings comes from--it doesn't make sense. I see a strong similarities with drug addiction--it doesn't make sense, either, why someone would make a white powder, for example, so important that you'll let it take over your life. It's that powerful. Transference can be that powerful, too, and can take over your life.

I also see it as a stark indicator that those feelings had little to do with MC himself; rather, they have everything to do about past hurts and unresolved developmental issues. Little LT.

Transference is intense and powerful. Transference distorts and can 'blind you' to reality. People with severe drug addiction can seem they are under some kind of spell, disconnected from reality, which is normally referred to as being in denial. Transference, when that intense, leads to reality disconnect as well.

Thanks for this. I'm pretty sure it's mostly about past hurts and other childhood stuff, too. I've never felt truly accepted by my parents for who I am--particularly the mental illness aspect (and introversion, for my mom)--and it felt like ex-MC was giving me that. Like what I missed from childhood. His talking about how he helped his daughter, then son with their anxiety fed into that as well. Like, what if I'd had a father like him?

Your last paragraph made me wonder something. I wonder if part of what I'm mourning now isn't just losing ex-MC, but having more of an understanding of the reality of the situation? His last email response to me, in early December (the last time I contacted him) felt sort of final and didn't seem to have the same caring under it as others. So maybe some of it is dealing with the harsh reality of what the relationship actually was--and wasn't. Like, now that I'm out from under that spell/intoxication/whatever you want to call it, I can see more clearly what was going on.

I think seeing him walk out of his office (while I was leaving T's parking lot) a couple weeks ago may have also reminded me that he still exists but isn't a part of my life anymore. It's been 4 months since we've had any sort of communication, and his last email reply to me felt sort of final, and I didn't feel the same caring underneath it as usual. But it's hard to say if that was his tone (like intentional on his part) or if I was just seeing it differently now.

Some stuff to think about...

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks for this. I'm pretty sure it's mostly about past hurts and other childhood stuff, too. I've never felt truly accepted by my parents for who I am--particularly the mental illness aspect (and introversion, for my mom)--and it felt like ex-MC was giving me that. Like what I missed from childhood. His talking about how he helped his daughter, then son with their anxiety fed into that as well. Like, what if I'd had a father like him?

Your last paragraph made me wonder something. I wonder if part of what I'm mourning now isn't just losing ex-MC, but having more of an understanding of the reality of the situation? His last email response to me, in early December (the last time I contacted him) felt sort of final and didn't seem to have the same caring under it as others. So maybe some of it is dealing with the harsh reality of what the relationship actually was--and wasn't. Like, now that I'm out from under that spell/intoxication/whatever you want to call it, I can see more clearly what was going on.

I think seeing him walk out of his office (while I was leaving T's parking lot) a couple weeks ago may have also reminded me that he still exists but isn't a part of my life anymore. It's been 4 months since we've had any sort of communication, and his last email reply to me felt sort of final, and I didn't feel the same caring underneath it as usual. But it's hard to say if that was his tone (like intentional on his part) or if I was just seeing it differently now.

Some stuff to think about...

I don't mean to but into this... but I could see this as being a thing. I'm going through similar. Seeing things for how they really are, and that he's really gone etc. It's absolutely devastating to me and it's partly why I am so busy distracting myself, so I can avoid these constant thoughts in my mind. I feel so dumb for believing he liked me, for example.

I know some people have said that I'm "lucky" that he is open to contact in 2 years but I'm really not. The thing is, there is NO WAY, I can mentally handle possible rejection of any kind unless I get my head together by then. I have a ton of work before that's even possible. Plus I have to realize, how different it will be if anything happened.

As for the stuff with your parents, I get it, but the sad part is, you can't ever get that part of your life back. There will always be a piece of you that is missing, kind of like when someone dies. You just have to learn to love yourself where you are, see the value in you, and try to live every day for you and your family. (H&D) The self worth stuff is something I'm going through too right now, it's a long journey but we can get there.

You've both have come a long way.

[susannahsays]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks, this makes sense. And actually, I got the word "void" from ex-MC. At one point in session, he turned to me and said, "Do you ever feel like there's just this void inside you that no one can fill?" And I thought for a minute, then said "Yes." At the time, he said he couldn't fill it, H couldn't feel it, that no person could fill it. That he and ex-T (current T at time) could help me with it, but it's ultimately up to me to fill. Yet at times, it felt like he did try to fill it. And would say stuff about how working through the transference for him could help rewrite past stories from childhood.

Yikes, it seems somehow more alarming to me that he recognized how deep your yearning was yet he was still so careless.

Was it scary to hear that no person can completely fill the void or take it away somehow? Seems like it would be.

That's actually something we talked about in session today, how it was like he sold me on this thing that working through transference could do. So I felt like if I kept working with him, then I would get that result. And in terminating, it was like I lost my chance for that. In a way...I guess it's almost like he was some scam artist trying to sell me on a miracle cure. (These are my words.) T doesn't seem to think that "working through transference" in that way really works, or at least he doesn't understand how it does.

"Scam artist" seems like a fair way to describe ex-MC's occupation based on the service he provided and the service he claimed he was capable of providing.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

A healthy, well-functioning marriage can meet a lot of your attachment needs. There are far fewer limitations than in the therapeutic relationship, and you get the added benefit of a self-esteem boost from seeing that you're capable of meeting your partner's needs too.

This has been my experience of desire and longing in therapy and with my therapist, in that it's the absence of certain kinds of healthy relationships that make the transference bloom for me. It's like it was a clue for what I was missing in my marriage and/or other relationships.

For me, it was similar to when I've realized that certain relationships weren't good for me. What that unhealthy relationship brought me-- the most recent one, for example, was easy companionship and deep, intimate conversations. These needs are hardly unhealthy but for many other reasons, this relationship was, and I was willing to suffer for them.

I don't presume that transference is the same for everyone and it's kind of a stereotype to pitch therapy as useful only for those who don't get what they need from healthy relationships. It is perfectly possible to have a healthy and happy marriage and still experience transference or struggle with attachment. However, I do think it's worth exploring whether your marriage and other relationships are working for you in the overall picture of the changes you are making in therapy.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

This has been my experience of desire and longing in therapy and with my therapist, in that it's the absence of certain kinds of healthy relationships that make the transference bloom for me. It's like it was a clue for what I was missing in my marriage and/or other relationships.

For me, it was similar to when I've realized that certain relationships weren't good for me. What that unhealthy relationship brought me-- the most recent one, for example, was easy companionship and deep, intimate conversations. These needs are hardly unhealthy but for many other reasons, this relationship was, and I was willing to suffer for them.

I don't presume that transference is the same for everyone and it's kind of a stereotype to pitch therapy as useful only for those who don't get what they need from healthy relationships. It is perfectly possible to have a healthy and happy marriage and still experience transference or struggle with attachment. However, I do think it's worth exploring whether your marriage and other relationships are working for you in the overall picture of the changes you are making in therapy.

It seems like with T, it's much easier for me to connect fleeting feelings of particularly ET for him with something that's missing from my marriage. I don't think I ever wrote about this one session, but I'd been talking about something that H had said to me that had bothered me. And T was like, "If I was married to your H, I think I'd often find myself saying to him, 'That's not an OK thing to say to me.'" (or something like that). Which suggested that T wouldn't say such things to his spouse either. But the difference between those reactions to T vs. ex-MC is with T, I can very clearly make that connection in my mind and not think, "I wish I were married to him." Because I suspect we would very quickly drive each other insane (and not in a good way!)

Whereas with ex-MC, there was definitely a part that was like, "I wish he could have been my H" (or "I wish he could have been my father"--I also don't have that with T). I suspect that came partly because at one time, I could see ex-MC being more compatible with me and also partly because he sort of played into that in some way, I think. And I also had more of a blurring in my mind of who ex-MC was in session vs. how he is in real-life, likely due to his sharing so much and fuzzy boundaries. Whereas with T, it's more like, "OK, this is the person he is to me in this room as my therapist" and not thinking he's necessarily the same in real life. Though actually, from what he's said, he's more similar in real life to how he is as a T--fairly blunt/direct with people, for example. I think I just envision him being like, "Yes, that dress does make you look fat, honey."

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

Yikes, it seems somehow more alarming to me that he recognized how deep your yearning was yet he was still so careless.

Was it scary to hear that no person can completely fill the void or take it away somehow? Seems like it would be.

"Scam artist" seems like a fair way to describe ex-MC's occupation based on the service he provided and the service he claimed he was capable of providing.

That's a good point about it seeming worse that he realized the intensity of the yearning. You'd think that should have made him be more careful. I'm thinking countertransference came into play there...


And yes, it was scary to hear that no one could fill the void.

[LonesomeTonight]

OK, I was initially putting this part into my writeup of Monday's session, but realized it's kind of confusing in there. So will do a separate post. Most of this past Thursday's session was spent on breathing and meditation techniques, but I'm not going to ramble on about that here. Just something else from the start of the session.

I'd been talking about how awful I'd felt the previous Thursday night (4/4), the anniversary of termination with ex-MC. And I said part of me had wished I could have talked to T briefly. But that anytime I brought up the possibility of a brief, unscheduled phone call with him, he'd given me a different answer, so I had no idea if it was OK or not. Like one time, he'd said he never does unscheduled phone calls with clients. Another time, he had said that, assuming he was available, of course he'd be willing to talk for a few minutes. A third time, he said the only reason he'd talk to someone like that would be for crisis assessment, to help determine if they needed to go to the ER. I told him that, and he agreed that it was confusing. That he doesn't have a set policy on that (great, thanks! though at least he admitted it), how it partly depends on what's going on for him at the time.

T: "When I was younger, I was more willing to talk to a client on the phone if they were just feeling abandoned or upset. But now I feel differently. I'm sorry about that." Me: "I understand, you probably now realize it's a boundary you have to set for yourself." T: "Yes, thanks for understanding." He said in the case of a crisis, it's still OK, but not just for the sake of making a client feel better. And also his phone is generally always turned off between 10 pm and 6:30 am. I said it was helpful to know the actual hours (I knew he said before that it was generally off/on silent when he's sleeping, unlike ex-MC, who answered when I called really upset at 2 am once and talked to me for a few minutes).

Back to the calling in the case of a crisis thing. Me: "But we never really officially defined what a crisis is, did we?" T: "Not really." Me: "And what if I feel I'm in crisis, but then I'd worry you're sitting there thinking, 'why is she calling me right now? This isn't a crisis!'" I think T said he wouldn't think that? I forget. Throwing all this under a trigger warning:

Possible trigger:

T's response suggested that it would be if I thought I couldn't keep myself safe. I said I assumed he meant in terms of trying to end things rather than SH. Me: "Because I know you've said my SH isn't dangerous." T: "It isn't." I said how once ex-T had been really upset that I called her after I SHed, how she seemed to think I should have called her first. Her general reaction to it made me feel I couldn't talk to her about it. T said that was unfortunate. (Note: I had ended up SHing that Thursday night, with the anniversary, and T had talked to me about it more than usual the Monday after, seemed to be more concerned, where usually he'd just say "I'm sorry" and let it drop.)

Back to the phone call thing. I asked if he thought a client needed to be actively suicidal to call, not just having strong urges. He implied yes. I said wouldn't that mean they should just go to the ER? And how I also worried I'd call him and he'd just say to do that or "You need to call a crisis line" and I'd feel more dismissed. He said if he was able to talk, he likely wouldn't say, "Just call a crisis line," it would be more if he couldn't talk." I said what if I was pretty sure I could keep myself safe but wasn't sure--would it be OK to reach out to him in that case? He seemed unsure but said I could always email. Me: "OK, what if I was more 50-50 on whether I'd be able to keep myself safe?" T: "In that case, it would be OK. Or if you thought talking to me for a few minutes might calm you down enough so that you'd know you could stay safe." Me: "Yes, that's more what I was thinking, if just talking to you for a couple minutes could help, like after I'd tried other stuff." He said that would be OK.

I asked how to approach that...do I text and just request a call? Because he normally doesn't want any other info in a text other than scheduling. Me: "Or should I include the word 'crisis' or something?" T: "Definitely say it's a crisis." Me: "OK, thanks. I mean, I hope I don't ever have to do that, but...I'd rather know what to do and not worry that you'd be upset with me for handling it wrong. I mean, I guess you wouldn't be angry, but..." T: "No, I wouldn't be." Me: "And I'd understand if you wouldn't be available to talk." T: "Well, it's part of my job to be available at times like that." Me: "But you might be doing something that I'm interrupting." T: "Any time you contact me, you'd be interrupting *something*." Me: "Good point, even if you're just watching TV."

So we basically sort of came up with the parameters for when I could contact him. But I think I'd still worry he'd think I wasn't feeling bad enough to justify contacting him. And it's also sort of bothering me that he chose to mention that in the past, he was willing to talk on the phone in non-crisis circumstances. Like, why even tell me that? I may need to talk about some of this stuff more today, not sure...