[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I think the juxtaposition of these two things is very interesting, and very important. In the dream, being with your parents, even being brought into their "intimacy" (I realize you're not saying anything inappropriate happened here, dream or otherwise), was constricting. Maybe paying attention to that feeling is really important. Is it possible that not being the "right daughter" is the root of this feeling? I think this happens pretty often in families, where parents want to "box in" children, tell them who they are, how they have to be. Sometimes marriage does this, too (I, at least, identify with the constricting nature of marriage and trying to live up to who my spouse wanted me to be). Sometimes, just like animals caught in a trap where they chew their own leg off to escape, people do pretty extreme things to get away from the perception of being trapped in something they don't want to be in, or perhaps more deeply, trapped inside someone else's idea of who they are supposed to be.

We all need our freedom from something, even if it's something we box ourselves into. A mortgage that's too big, a relationship that doesn't quite work for us, our own ideas of who we're supposed to be and what we're supposed to do. The exodus or escape from whatever's holding you back in your life seems to be central to this dream and maybe the therapeutic theme connected to it.

Oh, I hadn't really connected the dream to what came later in the session, but that makes a lot of sense. I do think the "being the right daughter" is tied to the feeling, and T seems to think that as well. I also said that if my mother had given birth to a clone of her, maybe it would have been different, but T said she would have struggled just as much there, if not more. Which I think is accurate. The feeling trapped in marriage thing (and more so after having a child together) likely contributed to my being unfaithful. Like it was my attempt to break out of that in a way, if only temporarily. I mistakenly thought that could have been a solution, like, "If only I could get this out of my system, things would be OK." But it wasn't. Well, then again, as T put it, had it not happened, I might still be half-in, half-out of the marriage. I think I'm considerably more "in" now than I was at that time.

But I also often feel trapped by my own mind--anxiety, self-loathing, self-doubt, etc. Which likely goes back to messages from childhood. I feel like this T has the potential to help me escape from that, at least to some extent. I thought the sort of "extreme acceptance" by ex-MC was the answer, but now I'm thinking maybe it isn't. Because then I'm still looking to acceptance from another person, rather than from myself.

[DP_2017]

Oh i agree he handles it fine. I was more concerned about the toll it takes on you. That's why I was suggesting ways to lessen it, even though it is hard

Lol whoops about homework but that is ok. I agree it can be hard to convey humor in writing. Hope today is well anyway

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Oh i agree he handles it fine. I was more concerned about the toll it takes on you. That's why I was suggesting ways to lessen it, even though it is hard

Lol whoops about homework but that is ok. I agree it can be hard to convey humor in writing. Hope today is well anyway

Thanks, DP. Sadly, anxiety has been taking such a toll on me most of my life, but I am working on it. At least now I feel I have a safe place to express it (well, along with on this forum!)

[SlumberKitty]

LT, sounds like a good session. Well done. HUGS Kit

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I also think there is an element of the anxiety related to him--I'm not referring specifically to you here, but I know my T isn't overly popular on this forum (yes, he has his fans!), so I think at times I sort of think, "Maybe he is the jerk that people think he is" so it's hard for me to reconcile that with, "My mental health is more important to him than the exact number on his paycheck." (And yeah, that comes down to my working on trusting my own opinions/feelings first and putting those of others through the "LT filter.")

I've actually noticed your relationship becoming more and more stable, and "ordinary" and maybe less contentious on the forums than maybe he used to be. or that's just me

[LonesomeTonight]

T Thursday. Won't go into all the details here (honestly, much of it is kind of fuzzy, which is unusual for me!), but much of it was about the concept of forgiving myself for not be the child my mom wanted me to be, which had come up Monday. Which led to T saying something like, "The way I try to approach parenting is..." and then talked about accepting one's child completely for who they are, but also letting them know you can help them improve in certain areas if they want. Like in my case, struggling with anxiety, if my parents had fully accepted that (they didn't) and also said they could help me with that so I didn't struggle so much (they didn't, aside from brief period seeing psychiatrist, but I think it was more because they didn't know how to deal with me, not out of compassion). He didn't specifically talk about anything with his son. And I wasn't aware of this hitting me at the time. But when I left, I felt this almost overwhelming wave of paternal transference, to the point that I started crying while walking in the parking lot to my car (I hadn't shed a tear in session, which is unusual lately).

After confirming that I wasn't near the email limit, I typed up an email to him that evening. But then sat on it until the next morning, when I sent this:
"Hi Dr. T,
Obviously I asked about the color for a reason...Been feeling some pretty intense emotions since session. It can be really difficult when you (or Dr. ex-MC) talk about how you try to be as a parent. It sets off this sort of paternal transference thing, leading to a sense of...longing almost. The young, emotional part of my brain sort of centers that (paternal) longing on you, but the adult, rational part of my brain knows that it's not actually about you at all, that I'm longing for something I missed out on 30-40 years ago. And can never have in the same way that I needed it then. It also feels like grief--for the childhood I didn't have and the person I could have been if I'd received what I needed.

I wrote this last night. I listened to music through headphones before bed, which is like meditation for me. I slept some. But I still feel this need to share these feelings with you. So, here you go.

Thanks,
LT"
He wrote back an hour later (morning is his typical time to reply) with this:

"Thank you for sharing, and I think you're wise to think of this as needing to grieve for something you missed out on years ago and continue to having longings for. I like how you found a controllable and individual coping strategy to manage your feelings, and how you waited to send the email. I think you're showing real growth in how you manage your emotions and I hope that you're feeling positive and aware of that self growth.

It's interesting to me that you wrote "how you (meaning me) try to be as a parent." When discussing parenting I was trying to deliberately be very matter-of-fact and not talk about my parenting, but parenting as a concept and what Psychologists have come to generally understand about effective parenting. If you're comfortable doing so, I'd like to talk a bit about how that connection (that I was talking about my parenting and not parenting as a whole) got made in your mind because it may be important as we think about transference."

At first I was kind of bothered by the second part, because it felt almost defensive, and I *know* he mentioned something about how he approaches parenting. But then I thought about it more, and I think he's just trying to understand. The thing is, I think even if he hadn't referred to himself at all, the transference feelings likely still would have happened. Because he is a father, so it would have been natural, the way my mind works, to assume that's how he is as a dad, too. When who knows really? Plus I think it could say something about how I attribute things to people in general. So, hopefully, should be a good discussion today... And yeah, I know my T tends to suck at transference stuff, but he seems to be understanding it more lately (and that's also why I'm posting this shortly before session, to avoid any "Don't do it, are you crazy?" comments...)

ETA: And no, I don't know why he capitalized "Psychologists"! (annoying editor things...)

[susannahsays]

When he said "The way I try to approach parenting is..." he could have meant "The way I try to approach parenting as a therapist is..."

As in, he was speaking about parenting from the lense of a therapist. That would be in line with what he said in his email. However, I see why it's confusing. The thing is, they are always speaking as a therapist.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Which led to T saying something like, "The way I try to approach parenting is..." and then talked about accepting one's child completely for who they are, but also letting them know you can help them improve in certain areas if they want. Like in my case, struggling with anxiety, if my parents had fully accepted that (they didn't) and also said they could help me with that so I didn't struggle so much (they didn't, aside from brief period seeing psychiatrist, but I think it was more because they didn't know how to deal with me, not out of compassion).

I wonder how that fits in with his thing about not believing in unconditional positive regard or unconditional love. These are things I think about a lot because I don't understand what they mean.

Paradoxically, when I can accept certain things about myself, they become much easier to change. I think that's an Acceptance and Commitment Therapy concept.

Side note, my parents did the EXACT same thing when they took me to a psychologist as a teenager. I had always thought that was out of character because it didn't square with their general neglect/disregard of me, but you're exactly right that it was not out of compassion or understanding but because they flat-out didn't know what else to do.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

When he said "The way I try to approach parenting is..." he could have meant "The way I try to approach parenting as a therapist is..."

As in, he was speaking about parenting from the lense of a therapist. That would be in line with what he said in his email. However, I see why it's confusing. The thing is, they are always speaking as a therapist.

Yep, you got it! That bolded part is what he said he today that he had been trying to say. That he wouldn't talk about his own parenting style, because that's specific to him and his kid and might not apply to other people's kids. He did understand why I interpreted it the way I did though. Which made me feel better.

[DP_2017]

Lt

I'm glad it was claitified. Remember no parent is perfect either. Just do the best you can loving and supporting her.

I agree it isn't wise for him to discuss his stuff there, I could only imagine all the other stuff it could cause so good call for that.

Maybe do something fun with d today. Just the two of you

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I wonder how that fits in with his thing about not believing in unconditional positive regard or unconditional love. These are things I think about a lot because I don't understand what they mean.

Paradoxically, when I can accept certain things about myself, they become much easier to change. I think that's an Acceptance and Commitment Therapy concept.

Side note, my parents did the EXACT same thing when they took me to a psychologist as a teenager. I had always thought that was out of character because it didn't square with their general neglect/disregard of me, but you're exactly right that it was not out of compassion or understanding but because they flat-out didn't know what else to do.

That's an interesting question re: the UPR/unconditional love thing (good memory!) It really threw me the time he said he didn't have unconditional love for his son, that there are things he could do to change that for him. Because I guess I saw unconditional love as a thing that happened when you became a parent. And I guess it's a thing I craved...so then if T is saying he doesn't even believe in that for his own kid. It's hard to reconcile that.

Today, he was trying to explain the thing about forgiving my mom as tied in to forgiving myself. But I guess to me, it felt in a way like, if I forgive my mom, does that just let her off the hook for things? I was asking him how grieving what I didn't get in childhood tied into all that. Can I grieve things without forgiving her, say? Do I have to do it all together? He said it's all connected. That if I let her off the hook, I let myself off it, too. But I don't know? In a way, it feels like if I forgive her...then it's me who was the issue. But I don't know how to explain that to him.

I think...I suspect this is a transference thing. But part of me wants him to be like, "Your mom sucked, she screwed up, she should have loved you as you are, she doesn't deserve your forgiveness." Instead of "Maybe forgiving her because she had anxiety herself will help you."

And thanks for sharing the thing from your teenage years--sorry you dealt with that, too. I didn't mention this again today, but...

Possible trigger:

it was a psychiatrist I saw, she prescribed a med (forget what), but I was terrified to take it, as part of my OCD/anxiety was that I was convinced I'd die of an allergic reaction to a medication. But my parents literally held me down, trying to force me to take it. I refused. And I was scared they'd kick me out that night, so I was thinking about a teacher's house where I could potentially go live (not the one for whom I had transference in high school). They didn't, but it just felt like they were trying to fix me for their own purposes, not for my own needs.

[ElectricManatee]

Whoa, that trigger thing is intense. I'm sorry you had to go through that. I'm not to forgiveness yet, but it's not a concept I necessarily think is very important. For me, there was a whole layer of anger that I had no idea existed but that I needed to feel before I could come to a more nuanced understanding of why my parents failed in the ways they did. It helped a lot to talk about parenting with my T and what was and wasn't okay. I think part of that process involves having somebody validate the negative emotions before you can get to understanding and having compassion for your parents' limitations. But forgiveness in the face of people who haven't apologized, made amends, or even tried to understand seems fairly hollow to me.

[NP_Complete]

I'm struggling to find the difference between how you approach parenting as a therapist vs. how you approach parenting as a parent. If you believed that there is a best practice way to do things, wouldn't you do that with your own child? I understand that each child is different and would require individual treatment but this was a pretty broad approach he mentioned.

[atisketatasket]

LT—as I see it, forgiveness does not erase the sin. You’re still aware of it, how could anyone not be? It’s more like your relationship with the sinner has moved beyond it. It doesn’t erase the pain you feel, but it sets you free from being so governed by it.

So no, you wouldn’t be letting your parents off the hook, nor putting yourself on it.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

LT—as I see it, forgiveness does not erase the sin. You’re still aware of it, how could anyone not be? It’s more like your relationship with the sinner has moved beyond it. It doesn’t erase the pain you feel, but it sets you free from being so governed by it.

So no, you wouldn’t be letting your parents off the hook, nor putting yourself on it.

I think I see this similarly. I think I forgave because I needed to be the kind of person who forgives (for the kind of thing that was relevant), not because they deserved forgiveness. For me, it felt like the right thing to do for myself, and it was an internal process with some discussion in therapy, not an external one. I never went to them and said I forgave them.

This is what forgiveness did for me: it increased my empathy for them, understanding the kinds of pressures they were under and the way they saw things. This does not let anyone off the hook for the choices they made, nor did it increase my own sense of guilt or responsibility. To me, responsibility and blame aren't even in the picture for the really important things in life; they don't matter.

Not being so hard on them changed my relationship with them, allowing me to see them for who they are to me now, which makes for a much less complicated and satisfying relationship. It also gave me a sense of self compassion and I don't understand the connection, but being less hard on others led me to be less hard on myself. That was a good thing. I don't think I have ever wished I could have less self compassion.

For me, therapy was a safe place where I could look at things differently than I was used to. There is no requirement that you consider what your T might be saying to you (as opposed to your mind reading), but the possibility that shifting the painful thing could have positive effects seems real, like you are on the cusp of it. Staying stuck in how you look and react to it for all these years is an option, but that seems like a more painful choice to me. It doesn't seem like that has worked out for you. Maybe rather than focusing on him understanding you, it might benefit you to understand him. I think there's something tangible and symbolic in that.

[LonesomeTonight]

T Monday. Went back and sat down. I said that initially something in his email from Friday bothered me, but I decided to sort of step back and reframe it. He said he didn't reread the email before session, so I pulled out the printed copy and read the relevant part out loud to him. Where he was questioning why I had assumed he was talking about how he was as a father, when he specifically didn't say that. He asked about that.

Me: "Well, I'm pretty sure you prefaced it with something like, 'The way I try to approach parenting is...' So to me, it sounded like you were talking about how you try to be as a father." T: "What I meant was that's how I approach it as a psychologist. But I see where you would think I meant how I personally approach parenting my son." Me: "Oh, OK. I mean, even if you hadn't said that, I think I would have ascribed some of that to you as a father because of the fact that I know you're a parent." T: "I do lots of family counseling, and often the first thing they'll ask me is, 'Do you have kids?' Because they want to know I've shared that experience, that I 'get it.'" Me: "Yes, there are some experiences that all parents share, like the newborn phase."

I said I knew that even if what he described was how he tried to parent, then it doesn't mean it happens that way in reality. Me: "I mean, maybe sometimes you yell at your son or you don't handle things as you'd want to." T: "Exactly. And I wouldn't tell someone that they should parent just like I do." Me: "Because it's specific to the child? Like, what works for your son might not work for my daughter? Or for me?" T: "Yes." Talked a little more about that.

I started telling him about my emotions Thursday after the session. How it just felt like it all hit me in the parking lot. Me: "And that night...OK, this is going to sound kind of melancholy--but I was lying there in the dark, listening to music through headphones and crying." T: "You haven't really told me what the actual emotions were." Me: "The best way I can describe them is 'longing.'" T: "Do you know what you were longing for?" Me: "I guess...something I didn't have? Something I'd missed out on in the past?"

Possible trigger:

Me: "It was interesting, because I didn't have any desires to SH or any SUI. Like I would often have when I was upset like that." T: "Hm, that's interesting."

Me: "I was just...intensely sad. I think maybe because it was about stuff from my past? Rather than something from the present, like if H had really upset me. But there was also this intense feeling of needing to connect with you. Like an overwhelming feeling. I think that was about the paternal transference stuff. From you talking about how a parent should be--well, and I'd thought you were talking about how you were as a father. I guess I felt sort of...I hesitate to use this phrase--but 'warm and fuzzy' toward you." I forget what he said to that.

We switched to talking about my mom. The details of this part are a bit hazy. I know T said: "I imagine you were a difficult child, with your anxiety and everything." Me: "I was under the impression I'd been an easy child, like I entertained myself, got good grades, followed rules." T: "I mean a difficult child to raise, especially for your mother to raise with her own anxiety issues." Me: "..."

T talked about how she must have struggled with parenting me. T: "One of my goals for you is that you can come to a place where you forgive her for that." Me: "I know, you've said that before. But I thought we were also trying to help me forgive myself? I feel that's more important." T: "I think forgiving your mom will help you forgive yourself." Me: "I don't know. Isn't that letting her off the hook for everything?" T: "No, just recognizing that it was hard for her too and she wasn't intentionally not meeting your needs." Me: "oh." He said how letting her off the hook would let me off the hook, too. I said I didn't fully understand how that worked. I also asked how grieving what I'd missed out on played into that. He said he saw forgiving my mom as a part of that process.

We talked about some related stuff. I saw we were just about at the end of session, and I broke down sobbing. Me: "I'm sorry. I know we have to stop in a minute." T: "What's going on?" Me: "I don't know. the session just seemed to go by so fast, and..." T: "That can happen sometimes. It seems like maybe you need something from me that I didn't give you?" Me: "I think maybe I just need to know that you're not weirded out by the transference stuff. Maybe I shouldn't ask you that, because then you might say it's 10% weird or something and then I'll feel worse." (I was referencing the stone thing, which I think he knew.) T: "I'm not weirded out at all. If I was, I would tell you." Me: "OK, good, I just get worried anytime I bring up transference stuff, because it seems to make you uncomfortable if it seems like anything is about you, but this isn't about [T's first name] or even Dr. T, it's more what you represent to me, the role you're playing for me right now, that you're the one sitting in front of me, someone I see as an authority figure, talking about parenting." T: "I know. And again, I'm not weirded out. I'm not sure that's really what you're looking for from me right now. I feel like you want something else." Me: "Yeah, maybe...I'm not sure what it is." T: "If you figure it out later, you can always reach out." Me: "OK."

Confirmed Thursday, scheduled for next week. As he went over to the computer to do my invoice, I recalled that he said he might need help remembering my new fee. Me: "150! For the fee!" T: "Got it." Me: "You're probably thinking, 'No, 1:25!" T: "What?" Me: "the current time, that it's 1:25, not 1:50. Uh, so I'm just going to stop talking." T laughed warmly, and I laughed, too. It made me feel connected in that moment. Paid. Shook hands as T said, "Have a good week--it's Monday, right?" Me: "Yes, Monday...I think." He laughed. T: "Take card of yourself." Me: "Thanks, you too."

Ended up texting him a couple hours later, asking if he had anything before Thursday. He said he had a Wed. morning. I pondered it for a bit, then he replied a little later saying he didn't want to pressure me, but someone else was also requesting the slot. I said let them have it, I'd just email. He said OK. So I emailed. Then wasn't sure how I felt about his (long, paid) reply the next morning. I replied saying I wasn't sure how to react to parts of it, if something magically opened up before Thursday, let me know. He replied a few hours later, saying the slot he'd originally offered Wed. was available again, as that client had to come in that day (Tuesday--I assume a crisis thing). So, seeing him at 11:30 today (and canceled Thursday).

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by NP_Complete

I'm struggling to find the difference between how you approach parenting as a therapist vs. how you approach parenting as a parent. If you believed that there is a best practice way to do things, wouldn't you do that with your own child? I understand that each child is different and would require individual treatment but this was a pretty broad approach he mentioned.

I wonder the same...but then I guess there's having a certain parenting philosophy vs. carrying it out in real life, like the day to day? I think of how ex-MC would talk about yelling at his kids, and I doubt best practices of parenting are like, "Yelling at your kids is OK!" I mean, it happens, but.

[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks for the various comments on forgiveness. I think a big issue for me is that I tend to put the blame on myself. Like, I was already thinking that I was a difficult child, that it was my fault for not being what my mother wanted me to be, so I feel in a way T saying that is just reinforcing those feelings. I'm not consumed with anger toward my parents. I feel I haven't even gotten to the anger step--not that I need to get there. But I guess I haven't fully gotten to the "It wasn't all my fault" step, even if T might think I have? Like I may have gotten there intellectually, but not emotionally. So to me, this feels like I go from blaming myself to forgiving my mom. I mean, I guess it could be seen as "It's nobody's fault, just a bad match." I'm wondering if it's acceptance I'd rather focus on vs. forgiveness. Maybe some could say those terms are interchangeable, but they mean quite different things to me.

I guess I feel like, I go through life being much harder on myself than I ever am on other people. I am more likely to let people off the hook, to forgive them their mistakes and shortcomings, to accept them as they are. To change and grow, I feel I need to at least somewhat change that pattern, particularly the blaming myself part. I'm not sure how well I'm phrasing this...

I think it also sort of feels like T is pushing his own agenda on me. Like, "This is the only path forward, forgiveness." (That's probably more clear in his email response, which I'll include at least in part--it's all very long.) Even in his setting goals for me--it's not like we set those goals together. In some ways,it feels like he's repeating patterns of my mom, thinking I should be a certain person and trying to mold me into that person, where my own path and end goal may need to be different.

[DP_2017]

Again, I agree completely with your T here and I see it as caring about you, wanting you to heal and not be stuck in the pain, caring that he wants to help you move forward. I don't see any negative reflection on you.

As for parenting, no parent is perfect, not you, not him, no one. Every parent makes mistakes and does things differently. There's no use in trying to be a perfect parent. It isn't possible.

I imagine as someone with anxiety and a special needs child, you might say she's is a difficult child to raise at times, it's not a reflection on either of you but rather that those circumstances present extra challenges, that's exactly what your T was saying

the only thing I have to say I disagree with you on, is saying every parent experiences the same, such as newborn phase. That's not true of adoptive parents. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I get what you were saying but just again, pointing out, every parenting journey is different. Try not to get so lost in this world of perfect parenting that you lose sight of the progress you were making in your life in therapy.

Your T is who he is, you know this, you've clashed often, he isn't going to change to be the person you wish he was. That being said, if you need a break or a new T, that's fine. This is about you and what is best for you going forward, I hope you are able to reflect on this and make that choice for yourself. Good luck

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I think it also sort of feels like T is pushing his own agenda on me. Like, "This is the only path forward, forgiveness." (That's probably more clear in his email response, which I'll include at least in part--it's all very long.) Even in his setting goals for me--it's not like we set those goals together. In some ways,it feels like he's repeating patterns of my mom, thinking I should be a certain person and trying to mold me into that person, where my own path and end goal may need to be different.

He's being a T. Yes, the only way forward is forgiveness, that's not really an agenda as much as a fact, You will always have pain and feel stuck until you can do that.

I also don't think he's any different than any other T, of course they all want us to succeed so they have a vision for us, and it doesn't matter what his vision or your moms or anyone's might but except, WHAT IS YOUR VISION FOR YOU? That's the thing that matters here.

You are free to ignore any of his suggestions or ideas and do what is best for you.