[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I think it also sort of feels like T is pushing his own agenda on me. Like, "This is the only path forward, forgiveness." (That's probably more clear in his email response, which I'll include at least in part--it's all very long.) Even in his setting goals for me--it's not like we set those goals together. In some ways,it feels like he's repeating patterns of my mom, thinking I should be a certain person and trying to mold me into that person, where my own path and end goal may need to be different.

This is how you choose to construct or frame it, not how it necessarily is. When someone says, "this is what I'd like to see you be able to do," say like a swim coach, "I'd like to be able to see you swim across the pool without touching the bottom," I hear it as the functional equivalent of "I think it would be helpful for you if you could swim across the pool, rather than stopping in fear and interrupting your progress." It doesn't mean you have to do it or you have to want it, but it's certainly different than where you are now. There's no command or demand or desire for you to be a certain person. Being able to do something, like talk openly with your mother, may be something good to work towards even if you ultimately choose never to address some of the past with her. It's the ability to do something, which allows you to freely choose whether to do that thing or not, that I think is the goal. Whether you want to stay in the shallow end even though you can swim in the deep end is okay. But having the skills to be able to go across the pool if you choose to, to expand your horizons if and when you are ready, I think that's the whole point. Right now, you're sidelined in the shallow end. It limits your choices and ultimately limits who you are. So when you say, Mom tried to confine me into being a certain kind of person, you could ask the question, and who's limiting you now?

[LonesomeTonight]

Here's the email--T embedded his replies in what I wrote, so I just made it like a conversation (hopefully the blue shows up OK):
"T: LT, I put my responses into your email below in blue. No worries on my end about sending the email in the evening, you can feel welcome to email whenever it's comfortable for you to do so.

Me: Hi Dr. T,
I feel really awful right now, lots of sadness, maybe some rejection from your end, some self-loathing. It's really hard to hear you to talk about forgiving my Mom because it feels like that invalidates my experience (even if I get what you're going for). Even worse was your saying that maybe I was a difficult child to raise (because of my anxiety), which felt like it put the blame on me and exonerated my mom and dad.

​T: I think that the path towards your greater mental health includes forgiving you Mom, and doing so will be more for your benefit than for her benefit. I'm sorry if you feel as though saying that, for your Mom, you may have been a difficult child to raise. I can see that it was hard for you to hear - but I think that it's true. That doesn't make you a bad child, or even a difficult child if don't like that language, it means that for your mother you were difficult to raise. I think that your issues with anxiety and her issues with anxiety made for a difficult match. For example, she tried to control your behavior and deny your mental health issues as a way of calming her own anxiety and perhaps giving you the tools that 'worked for her'. But they were the opposite of what you felt you needed. That's a bad match, and I'm sure it was frustrating for your mother in addition to being extremely hard on you.

Notice that this is not about blame, who was right and who was wrong, but about the situation itself. It's my professional belief that it is the role of the parent to adapt to the needs of the child, not the other way around. Your mother was unable to do so. That won't change with understanding or forgiveness. Also, I'd want you to see that there is no black/white; all/nothing going on here. It's not about all the blame going to one person, or exoneration for your parents. It's about appreciating the complexity of human motivation, behavior, and development and being able to see how things are rarely simple. The more you come to learn about a person, the more their behavior can start to make sense even though you would have preferred that person to make other choices or be different from who they are. Understanding someone and even forgiving them does not mean that you have to believe that everything they did is now fine and you're OK with it.

The thing with paternal transference is...now it feels like you're there in my dad's role, where he's putting my mom's well-being over mine ("I just love her a little more than you," he said at one point, when I'd upset her with my anxiety). ​

That is a pretty bizarre and terrible thing to say to a child.

I'm sorry, I feel like I must be such a challenging client, but this is so ****ing hard for me. The feelings, the transference, the stuff going back to childhood--they're overwhelming at times. I know you're really trying, and I appreciate that. I think I need two things: (1) To know that you at least somewhat understand and sympathize and/or empathize with what I'm going through right now;

​I do appreciate how hard this is for you, but I believe that you will experience greater emotional peace when you are able to go through the process of forgiveness and it starts with seeing things from the perspective of your mother and coming to understand more about her limitations and challenges. Doing so should not invalidate your experience. In fact, my hope is that it would enrichen and broaden your experience. You can begin to see the story of your childhood through several angles, which will lead to wisdom and - eventually - greater compassion for yourself and, I believe, your mother as well.

and (2) a reminder that you'll be there with me for whatever I go through in this therapy process, for however long it takes (within reason, of course). Yes, I should just know and accept (2), and I'm working on it, but it's harder when stuff from my past is triggered. ​

I have no intention of going anywhere. I see this as part of the process, and a difficult one for you, and hopefully you will experience me as being patient and understanding through it.

I understand if you have to charge for this. ​

Thank you for that understanding

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I think it also sort of feels like T is pushing his own agenda on me. Like, "This is the only path forward, forgiveness." (That's probably more clear in his email response, which I'll include at least in part--it's all very long.) Even in his setting goals for me--it's not like we set those goals together. In some ways,it feels like he's repeating patterns of my mom, thinking I should be a certain person and trying to mold me into that person, where my own path and end goal may need to be different.

I think this is a really keen insight (bolded part). It seems to me like your T has a sense of what the "finished product" might look like (especially after reading his email), which is that you will arrive at a nuanced understanding of your mom's perspective, with her own strengths and limitations as a parent, and a sense that she did the best she could, even if she ultimately couldn't give you what you needed. But it seems like your T doesn't have a sense of how to get you from Point A to Point B. It's a long road of healing that requires subtlety and skill, and he seems like a bit of a bull in a china shop here. It's one thing to know these things about your mother rationally (you probably already do), but it's quite another to build up a solid enough sense of self where you can hold onto your perspective and her perspective in a meaningful way. The big hurdle there is accepting yourself and your entire experience first. Until you can get there, his exhortations about forgiveness will just feel like more pressure and judgment. (I would also note that estrangement is another option. I'm not saying that that's desirable or recommended, but it seems like he has already decided what your future relationship with your mother should look like. That took me years to decide for myself.)

I'm trying not to comment as much on your thread these days because I think you perceive me as being hostile or not a fan of your T. I actually think he's a decent therapist, but I think he's probably not a good fit for you (maybe like your parents?). He seems to have some pre-conceived notions about where you are and where you need to be that are likely restricting your growth. I talked to my T a little bit about your situation and whether she thinks it would ever be helpful to say that a client is too sensitive, and she said that that phrasing seemed like judgment and that she would be far more interested in knowing why the client is sensitive about things and where it came from developmentally. I felt the same way about his comment that you were a difficult child. It's not terribly helpful to contextualize it that way and likely does more harm than good, but it seems to shed light on some of his perceptions of you.

[Oliviab]

This may come down to semantics and how one defines forgiveness, but I don't think forgiveness is the only path forward (it's certainly not a "fact"), nor do I think the T should be establishing that as a goal for you--you should be establishing your own goals or at the very least, it should be a collaborative process. As you mentioned, LT, I think "acceptance" is possibly a helpful way of looking at it, accepting what is, what you'll never get, that things can't be different, yours and others' shortcomings/humanness, etc.

The whole concept of forgiveness makes me squeamish. My T (who is a feminist, multicultural therapist) says that forgiveness often benefits the perpetrators, the aggressors, those in positions of power and privilege, and not the victims. He is adamant that forgiveness is not a necessary part of the journey, and actually gets quite riled at those who push it as if it were--he finds that disempowering, and I agree. I'm not saying that is true for everyone, but I am asking people to hold open the possibility that forgiveness is not necessarily the best choice for everyone on their journey or the only path to healing.

I know there are those who disagree that forgiveness benefits the perpetrators, who say they forgive for themselves, and if that's why they're doing it and how they experience it, then that's great. I would never claim otherwise. But this pressure to forgive, this black-and-white thinking that it's the only way to healing (ironic, since your T accuses you of that), it's simply not everyone's experience or reality. I have no desire, need, or intention to forgive, and if someone (especially someone who looked a lot like my perpetrator in terms of gender, age, etc.) was pushing me to, I would resist mightily. I'm not bitter, I'm not "stuck," I'm not trying to change the past, and if asked to, I can even feel some empathy for the perpetrator (although I do not like to spend much time or energy empathizing with those who hurt me, so I don't, but I can). I'm well aware that whatever remains, whatever the impact of my trauma, it's mine, all mine, to sort through and heal from as best as possible. I just don't think forgiveness is a necessary part of my journey, and I don't think anyone can say for me (or anyone else) that it needs to be.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by Oliviab

This may come down to semantics and how one defines forgiveness, but I don't think forgiveness is the only path forward (it's certainly not a "fact"), nor do I think the T should be establishing that as a goal for you--you should be establishing your own goals or at the very least, it should be a collaborative process. As you mentioned, LT, I think "acceptance" is possibly a helpful way of looking at it, accepting what is, what you'll never get, that things can't be different, yours and others' shortcomings/humanness, etc.

The whole concept of forgiveness makes me squeamish. My T (who is a feminist, multicultural therapist) says that forgiveness often benefits the perpetrators, the aggressors, those in positions of power and privilege, and not the victims. He is adamant that forgiveness is not a necessary part of the journey, and actually gets quite riled at those who push it as if it were--he finds that disempowering, and I agree. I'm not saying that is true for everyone, but I am asking people to hold open the possibility that forgiveness is not necessarily the best choice for everyone on their journey or the only path to healing.

I know there are those who disagree that forgiveness benefits the perpetrators, who say they forgive for themselves, and if that's why they're doing it and how they experience it, then that's great. I would never claim otherwise. But this pressure to forgive, this black-and-white thinking that it's the only way to healing (ironic, since your T accuses you of that), it's simply not everyone's experience or reality. I have no desire, need, or intention to forgive, and if someone (especially someone who looked a lot like my perpetrator in terms of gender, age, etc.) was pushing me to, I would resist mightily. I'm not bitter, I'm not "stuck," I'm not trying to change the past, and if asked to, I can even feel some empathy for the perpetrator (although I do not like to spend much time or energy empathizing with those who hurt me, so I don't, but I can). I'm well aware that whatever remains, whatever the impact of my trauma, it's mine, all mine, to sort through and heal from as best as possible. I just don't think forgiveness is a necessary part of my journey, and I don't think anyone can say for me that it needs to be.

You def have a different version of forgiveness than most people I've known. It IS basically what you said about accepting, letting go of what was, and making a way for the future, it DOES benefit you, it gives you the peace of those intense negative emotions, many times the person does not even know they have been forgiven so no it's not really about them. it's about giving yourself a pass, a pass to heal and move on and not giving them one... forgiveness isn't forgetting, i think people confuse them.

In this sense, letting go/acceptance/forgiveness is the only way to heal, otherwise you will always be stuck in the past with the wounds.

[Oliviab]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

You def have a different version of forgiveness than most people I've known. It IS basically what you said about accepting, letting go of what was, and making a way for the future, it DOES benefit you, it gives you the peace of those intense negative emotions, many times the person does not even know they have been forgiven so no it's not really about them. it's about giving yourself a pass, a pass to heal and move on and not giving them one... forgiveness isn't forgetting, i think people confuse them.

In this sense, letting go/acceptance/forgiveness is the only way to heal, otherwise you will always be stuck in the past with the wounds.

It's quite possible that I'm using forgiveness differently than others, although I did look it up just to check, and my definition matches the most common ones. I am not confusing it with forgetting. I simply do not choose to stop being angry at my perpetrators. Nor do I choose to exonerate, pardon, absolve, acquit, or provide amnesty for them (these are common synonyms for forgive). I think letting go of that anger would actually be LESS healthy for me than sitting with that anger, that it would be disempowering (again, this is my personal journey, I'm not saying it's true of everyone or even anyone other than me). I think letting go of anger prematurely (or sometimes ever) can render a person invisible (my experience) and can uphold the status quo where a little righteous anger might bring about more positive change (either within individuals or systemically).

I guess I just don't subscribe to the concept that "x is the only way to heal" and "otherwise you will always be stuck in the past with wounds." Those are absolute statements, and I tend to shy away from those when we're talking the human experience. I think the most anyone can say is that they experience something a particular way, or possibly even that many people experience it that way, maybe even that most people do. But not all people all the time. I'm not asking you not to view it that way for yourself, but simply to hold open the possibility that it might be different for others (at least one other). I'm not trying to argue a "correct" viewpoint, just putting out an alternate viewpoint on forgiveness for consideration for those with whom it might resonate.

LT - I apologize if I've hijacked your thread with a side conversation that isn't helpful to you. Let me know if that's the case.

[DP_2017]

Alright and if you want to harbor anger in your life, that's on you. I hope it works for you.

I know LT a bit off this forum and I know that's not the kind of person she wants to be. So if you TRULY want to heal, then yes, moving forward/letting go is the only way... but you can just to go forward and hold on to anger, it will just always have those negative feelings in you. Your choice, that's not the issue here, I was merely saying her T has a good point and it isn't about her negatively, it's his way of showing care, to say he wants to see her heal those wounds and let go of that anger and move forward. I totally get that and I agree with him

[DP_2017]

LT

I hope you got what you needed from today and are able to make the best choice going forward for you

[Lemoncake]

I don't think forgiveness is something that happens until it happens IF it happens at all and it's not something that can be forced. You should get to decide on your own goals, and I totally understand the idea of not living up to his his version of you which is creating the same issue with your mother. I don't like him telling you that you may have been difficult to raise.

[Xynesthesia2]

I tend to agree with Oliviab above that forgiveness may not be the only path. What does it mean anyway, that we arrive at a point when we no longer think/feel that the act of someone abusive, or even well-meaning but ignorant, was fine and did not cause harm at the time or even lasting harm? My own opinion and approach to these things is not about forgiveness per se, more about recognizing that some things that happened in the past are not relevant to my life today because I have 100% choice and power to decide and act differently and independently, including independently of some momentary feelings that do no more but hold me back. So, for me, it is about the recognition of my choice and moving on. I also don't generally think that it is too often beneficial to revisit the far past endlessly, I do not believe it is possible to significantly "reprocess" those things in the sense that we arrive at some neutral state about them. I think it is very healthy to recognize how the past has contributed to present struggles, but it is not too healthy to claim forever that "this thing happened, so I became this way, can't help it and if you do not agree, you are wrong".

I might have said this in response to you somewhere, LT: I think it can be very helpful to recognize that persistent, life-long anxiety is a physiological condition, much like a heart condition or diabetes. It may have developed as a result of nature+nurture, but it is the reality now and is unlikely to completely disappear. It's more about how it is managed and it cannot really be managed purely by explaining its causes. It can be improved by coping with things differently and shifting perspective. Trying new things. I still tend to think that this therapist helps you, in a large part because he is so different from you and gives quite different feedback from what you might automatically seek (e.g. from MC in the past) and because he sticks with his approach and does not alter it in big ways just to please a client or to become what they client wants (as many Ts, IMO).

If forgiveness does not appeal to you, I would say try out a concept that feels more compatible. As I said, for me it is usually moving on (I like that one because it implies both acceptance and progression). What could be the alternative anyway regarding your mom and her effects?

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by Lemoncake

I don't think forgiveness is something that happens until it happens IF it happens at all and it's not something that can be forced. You should get to decide on your own goals, and I totally understand the idea of not living up to his his version of you which is creating the same issue with your mother. I don't like him telling you that you may have been difficult to raise.

I agree that forgiveness can’t be forced. You have to be in a certain place to be able to do it.

I think the difficult child to raise bit is not the therapist’s opinion about LT, but suggesting that LT’s mother may have felt that way.

(I speak as someone who realized a while ago that I was a difficult child to raise, especially from my father’s perspective. It is a useful realization and it does help with my understanding of both him and myself. But not everyone may find it helpful.)

[Yellowbuggy]

LT:

As I mentioned before, I see so much of myself in you. Thank you for being open about your feelings. I feel a lot of what you express, I am just not as open to expressing it to others. The fear of vulnerability is too great.

Remember when T described you as a "double dipper"? Someone who has a genetic susceptibility toward anxiety (nature) who is raised in an invalidating environment (nurture)? In this sense, biology loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger. When T says your mother may have found you difficult to raise, he's not blaming you for being a "bad child." He's saying that your mother, with her own issues with anxiety, was not equipped with the tools necessary to raise you in the way that you needed.

My mother was similar to your mom. I was born anxious and raised in an invalidating environment. I was angry at my mom for many years. It wasn't until now, after I had my own son and my own issues that impact my ability to raise MY son in the way that he needs, that I am able to understand that my mom is not to blame. She did the best that she could with what she had. My son has special needs of his own. He is difficult for me to raise, but not because he is a bad child - he is a "double dipper", in a way, born with a genetic susceptibility to anxiety raised by a mother who has issues of her own. There is no blame here, just the recognition that we are all human and doing the best that we can.

Thinking of blame in terms of belonging to either you or your mom is all-or-nothing thinking. It's more complicated than that.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by Yellowbuggy

When T says your mother may have found you difficult to raise, he's not blaming you for being a "bad child." He's saying that your mother, with her own issues with anxiety, was not equipped with the tools necessary to raise you in the way that you needed.

.

Exactly what I was saying, or trying to, I tend to be terrible with wording things but yes, this!

[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks for all the comments--will reply later. Just wanted to update that session went well today. I felt like T really heard and understood me. I know I said some things that challenged him, too--I feel I made him really think about how he comes across to clients at times (or at least to me). There's one thing he said that's particularly resonating with me. I was talking about how I felt both as a kid and when I got older that I was less deserving of love because of my mental health issues. T: "I actually think they made you more deserving of love." And then he repeated it later.

[DP_2017]

LT

That was nice of him to say. I know as someone else with self worth issues, stuff like that is hard so it's helpful to hear those things. I hope you remember him saying that next time you doubt things with him. He's really good and patient with you. I'm glad it went well...

[SlumberKitty]

I'm glad your session went well LT and that you felt heard and understood. Those are important things, especially in T sessions!!! HUGS Kit

[stopdog]

My mother definitely thought I was difficult to raise and did not find my brother to be. My father, on the other hand, was just the opposite. I don't consider my mother to be on a hook for anything. She did try the best she could. It did not make my mother happy that she did not understand me. We did not understand each other at all. I think mothers get an unfair shake a lot of the time on this. People don't all get each other. I once read about a woman and her daughter who went to a therapist - the woman had felt like she could never express anger grwoing up and unsupported by parents etc and so when her kid got angry - she would take the kid to throw pottery to let out the anger. The mother's intentions were good but all the kid wanted was to be held.

The first therapist this time found me difficult and I have no idea why (and she would say she found me challenging but never explain), but the second one did not(and I have no idea why this one didn't) -I suppose it just happens. I don't see the purpose or value in using terms like forgive or let off the hook except in situations of deliberate malice. The fumblings of usual human beings with each other is messy but not malicious. I am not saying it is fun to have one's mother not understand them, but I do think at some point one moves on to relieve one's self of the burden.

I don't see anything as a reason for being more or less loved. I don't see love in that fashion.
I also don't think people change or move on until they are ready no matter how much others may urge them to do so nor how logical it might be.

[susannahsays]

I think forgiveness is overrated. Then again, I think my definition of forgiveness is different from many people's. I don't need to forgive to move on. With few exceptions, I don't hold a grudge or allow past hurts to influence my behavior. If someone's behavior isn't actively hurting me, I don't tend to think about what's gone before. However, I reserve the right to bring up past transgressions should they transgress again in the same/similar manner. In my book, that means I do not forgive them for the past transgressions. I personally would not find it liberating to do so.

The parents definitely found me a difficult child in some ways. The feeling was mutual.

[healed84]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

He's being a T. Yes, the only way forward is forgiveness, that's not really an agenda as much as a fact, You will always have pain and feel stuck until you can do that.


I also don't think he's any different than any other T, of course they all want us to succeed so they have a vision for us, and it doesn't matter what his vision or your moms or anyone's might but except, WHAT IS YOUR VISION FOR YOU? That's the thing that matters here.


You are free to ignore any of his suggestions or ideas and do what is best for you.

I am a couple hours late in this forgiveness stuff but I just wanted to add my two cents. I think t telling clients that they need to forgive is too much pressure. This is coming from my past where my parents were abusive and neglected us to an extent. I was also harmed beyond that by somebody else so my story may be different than LTs maybe a little more extreme but none the less my t has had always he said would never pressure anybody to forgive somebody who had harmed them in anyway. So, if LT doesn’t feel like forgiving is essential to her achieving her goals in therapy I don’t think the therapist should push her in that direction.

[healed84]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Alright and if you want to harbor anger in your life, that's on you. I hope it works for you.


I know LT a bit off this forum and I know that's not the kind of person she wants to be. So if you TRULY want to heal, then yes, moving forward/letting go is the only way... but you can just to go forward and hold on to anger, it will just always have those negative feelings in you. Your choice, that's not the issue here, I was merely saying her T has a good point and it isn't about her negatively, it's his way of showing care, to say he wants to see her heal those wounds and let go of that anger and move forward. I totally get that and I agree with him

Choosing not to forgive does not always equate to harboring anger in one’s life.. i don’t know LT off of this board but I do believe hon when she wants to heal and is kind.. that however, does NOT have to include forgiveness if she doesn’t think it is necessary. To expect people who have been harmed by another person to always forgive the perpetrator is hurtful for the person being harmed.