[DP_2017]

Whoops i shouldn't have spoke

[DP_2017]

Editing my posts

[susannahsays]

Ok, just read his email and I hated it. I usually like him pretty well, except for his anti-scientific beliefs around autism. However, it rubs me the wrong way when people impose the idea that forgiveness is the only way forward. Maybe I am wrong or projecting because that is a personal pet peeve, but that's how I interpreted his email. I also don't think it was a good call on his end to bring up that an anxious parent + an anxious child is a bad match at the same time that he pushed his forgiveness approach. I can totally see why you felt like he was letting your mom off the hook. It feels like he's empathizing equally with your mom as with you. This is actually an example of countertransference, I believe, and I find it disturbing. I think that he is empathizing with your mom because he also finds you difficult at times due to your anxiety - though he perhaps won't admit it even to himself. Because he is not very educated in transference/countertransference and projective/introjective identification, he is very unlikely to recognize what is going on. Here is an excerpt from this website that I think is highly relevant.

"When they become recipients of what their clients’ project – sometimes called projective fantasies – therapists identify with their clients and/or with those who have been significantly impacted by their clients. Grayer and Sax (1986) note that in any given session, the therapist usually moves back and forth: identifying first with the client, then with a person who was impacted by the client, then with the client, and so forth."

[healed84]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

That's because you see it differently. It doesn't mean giving them a pass or anything. It's letting go of things in your heart and moving on so YOU can live a happy and good life. Of course a person can always be a ****** human, I'd still forgive them because I don't want to take negative feelings with me.


Forgiveness is about me, or about you, not the person who caused the issues.

But- they way that people look at forgiveness is different. For you that is what it means. Just because I choose not to forgive somebody does not mean that I can’t let go off stuff or means it equates to negativeness in life. My point is that it seems forgiveness is subjective, and you are seeing everybody who is unforgiving in one way and that is simply just not true. It may be true for you, but it doesn’t mean it is true for anybody else.

[susannahsays]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Exactly, she can't go it unless she is ready but there is nothing wrong with a t saying he would like to see her get to that place of her healing process just as there is nothing wrong with a client ignoring it and doing whatever they choose

The issue is that he seems to think forgiveness is necessary or always positive. For some people, maybe it is, but not for everybody.

[DP_2017]

Well hopefully after talking it all out today, LT was able to get decide for herself how she feels about it all now. Often times miscommunication happens in emails, I know, it happened loads with me. In person is often a better way to discuss it.

I personally liked and agreed with his email. He had a lot of valid points, it's all how you look at it. I don't see any "sides" in it.... just care for her. Wanting to lay out his hopes for her in the best way he knows how.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by healed84

But- they way that people look at forgiveness is different. For you that is what it means. Just because I choose not to forgive somebody does not mean that I can’t let go off stuff or means it equates to negativeness in life. My point is that it seems forgiveness is subjective, and you are seeing everybody who is unforgiving in one way and that is simply just not true. It may be true for you, but it doesn’t mean it is true for anybody else.

Ya but if you can let go of stuff, as you put it, then you are basically forgiving, at least in my view of things. It's just a way to free yourself from the pain. Kinda like how you talk things out in therapy and work through them. I think we are all thinking forgiveness very differently at this point, anyway her T is allowed to have his view and she can say no thanks, it's not for me.

[susannahsays]

Healed literally said the way people look at forgiveness is different. I also said my definition is different. I don't think anybody who chooses not to forgive appreciates being told that they are actually forgiving people. It's very invalidating.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

Ok, just read his email and I hated it. I usually like him pretty well, except for his anti-scientific beliefs around autism. However, it rubs me the wrong way when people impose the idea that forgiveness is the only way forward. Maybe I am wrong or projecting because that is a personal pet peeve, but that's how I interpreted his email. I also don't think it was a good call on his end to bring up that an anxious parent + an anxious child is a bad match at the same time that he pushed his forgiveness approach. I can totally see why you felt like he was letting your mom off the hook. It feels like he's empathizing equally with your mom as with you. This is actually an example of countertransference, I believe, and I find it disturbing. I think that he is empathizing with your mom because he also finds you difficult at times due to your anxiety - though he perhaps won't admit it even to himself. Because he is not very educated in transference/countertransference and projective/introjective identification, he is very unlikely to recognize what is going on. Here is an excerpt from this website that I think is highly relevant.

"When they become recipients of what their clients’ project – sometimes called projective fantasies – therapists identify with their clients and/or with those who have been significantly impacted by their clients. Grayer and Sax (1986) note that in any given session, the therapist usually moves back and forth: identifying first with the client, then with a person who was impacted by the client, then with the client, and so forth."

Yes, this, exactly. It seems like it would be really easy as a therapist to get pulled into the client's relationship patterns without realizing it and inadvertently re-enact the past. I've definitely tried to do it to my therapist before, and sometimes I can visibly see her slowing down and realizing what I'm (unconsciously) doing so that she doesn't get sucked in. It's tricky stuff.

I think you are exactly right that Dr. T is unconsciously identifying with LT's mom because he finds LT difficult or perplexing too, even as he is mostly saying the "right" supportive things. He just can't see it. And it probably feels comforting and familiar to LT, even though it is a maladaptive pattern.

[susannahsays]

Btw LT, how was your psychiatrist appointment? I hope it went ok.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

Btw LT, how was your psychiatrist appointment? I hope it went ok.

Oh thanks for checking. It went OK. I started crying in the first minute, and I don't usually cry in there, so I think she took it easy on me. I sort of explained what was going on at the moment with T. (It's only 25-minute session, and we also had to talk medication, so didn't go into too many details.) I think my weepy state helped keep her from going on about alcohol stuff too much, she seemed to approve of approaches I was using to be mindful of it and work at cutting back, plus that I'm working on it with T.

I do appreciate her, because a couple meds I mentioned, she was like, in one case, "yeah, that's just these two older, cheaper meds combined, for much more money" (I think mix of Buspar and Zoloft--forget if the one she was referring to was Vibryd or another one). She's having me try really low dose of Abilify again (she said I could even take it every other day--I'm really sensitive to meds) with the Zoloft to help with the depressive spirals I can get in. (I've tried quite a few meds over the past 5 years, some with some pretty bad adverse effects, like psychological effects--no SNRIs for me!)

[NP_Complete]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Ya but if you can let go of stuff, as you put it, then you are basically forgiving, at least in my view of things. It's just a way to free yourself from the pain. Kinda like how you talk things out in therapy and work through them. I think we are all thinking forgiveness very differently at this point, anyway her T is allowed to have his view and she can say no thanks, it's not for me.

Forgiving my husband for calling me a fat, ugly c*** hundreds of times is not going to free me from the pain of being called that. In fact, the opposite might have to happen. I would need to feel free from the pain in order to forgive him. Forgiveness is an extremely personal process that doesn't necessarily need to happen for everyone. Everyone is entitled to their own approach to it.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by NP_Complete

Forgiving my husband for calling me a fat, ugly c*** hundreds of times is not going to free me from the pain of being called that. In fact, the opposite might have to happen. I would need to feel free from the pain in order to forgive him. Forgiveness is an extremely personal process that doesn't necessarily need to happen for everyone. Everyone is entitled to their own approach to it.

Ummm ok. Forget I spoke. Do whatever. Idk why you stay married if he's that cruel but that's your thing to deal with

Anyway I'm obviously being outdone here so whatever to all of you. Do whatever you want.

Anyway I'll save my views for lt privately off here. This isn't a place for me without judgment

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Ummm ok. Forget I spoke. Do whatever. Idk why you stay married if he's that cruel but that's your thing to deal with

Anyway I'm obviously being outdone here so whatever to all of you. Do whatever you want.

Anyway I'll save my views for lt privately off here. This isn't a place for me without judgment

Do you really not see that your first para here is a bit off the beam?
Disagreement with the idea your approach is universal and acknowledgment it does not work the same way for all is not the same as judgment.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Do you really not see that your first para here is a bit off the beam?

Oh ya I'm such a monster for thinking she deserves better.

Thankfully none of you have to deal with me anymore. I'm done with all of this

[NP_Complete]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Ummm ok. Forget I spoke. Do whatever. Idk why you stay married if he's that cruel but that's your thing to deal with

Anyway I'm obviously being outdone here so whatever to all of you. Do whatever you want.

Anyway I'll save my views for lt privately off here. This isn't a place for me without judgment

For the record, and I'm sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, I call him my husband because technically he is. He is currently serving a prison sentence for one of the things he did in my general direction and when I can gather my emotional resources enough to seek out legal advice, I will divorce him and refer to him as my ex-husband, but I'm not there yet.

I wasn't attacking you personally. I was trying to point out that everyone does the forgiveness thing differently, including you, and that's okay.

[NP_Complete]

I'm sorry I brought up my personal experiences.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by NP_Complete

I'm sorry I brought up my personal experiences.

I found they related to the topic that was being discussed and I think it was a brave thing to post.

[LonesomeTonight]

T Wednesday (day early by request). T was wearing jeans, which is rare for him, plus his R2-D2 socks (plus shirt and shoes). Went back and sat down. Me: "Sorry for requesting an earlier session, then declining it, then emailing, then asking for earlier session again." T: "It's not a problem. It all worked out." Me: "Yeah."

T: "You look really anxious." Me: "I am really anxious." T: "Do you want to talk about why you're so anxious?" Me: "I guess...this just feels like it could be an important session, like make-or-break for me." T: "Hm. OK...well, if you feel you need to terminate after this, it would be completely up to you." (He said it more kindly than it likely reads here--think he was just reassuring me that he wouldn't terminate.)

I couldn't look at him for first few things I shared, actually hiding my face behind my hand, which is unusual for me. Me: "I guess I just wasn't feeling that good about things after session, then thought maybe the email would help resolve things...but it sort of made it worse." T: "Tell me what you were feeling." Me: "It just felt in session like you were pushing the forgiveness thing on me when I wasn't sure about it. I thought maybe in the email you'd back off from it a bit, or say it's not the only path, but instead, it seemed like you pushed it even more. It felt like you had an agenda. And it's like...if you think that's the only direction I can go in, like if I have to go toward forgiving my mom...then...I don't know. I'm not totally sure this could work."

T: "The thing with forgiveness is, if you're feeling anger at someone, it can really consume you. Affect your mental health, your physical health." He said something else about it, and I waited until he was done. Me: "But the thing is, I haven't even really gotten to anger yet. It's like I've gone from blaming myself...to now I'm supposed to forgive her? I feel I've spent my whole life in a way forgiving people, letting them off the hook for things, blaming myself instead." T: "Well, it's not the only way forward. I'm sorry it seemed like I was saying that." Me: "It did." T: "And if you did aim for forgiveness, it wouldn't be an immediate thing. It's more of an endgame. It could be a year, 5 years, even 50 years from now."

Me: "OK. But what if even I don't feel forgiveness is the right thing for me? I guess there's a difference between forgiveness and acceptance." T: "Yes there is a difference." Me: "But maybe acceptance is the right thing for me?" T: "It could be. Like I said, there's not just the one path, it's just the one that tends to have the most psychological evidence as being helpful." Me: "OK."

Me: "I think the thing is...with ex-MC, what helped me was realizing that it wasn't all my fault. That he had some blame in it, too. It wasn't just I screwed up the relationship by saying something to him that I shouldn't have. And I feel I've generally worked through that, but wouldn't say I've forgiven him. And don't feel like I need to with him to move forward." T: "OK. So you do feel you have moved past that?" Me: "It feels like, since I was really sad at the anniversary of the termination, a month ago, it's like I've been able to move forward." T: "Good."

Me (back to covering face): "The other thing is...I was really bothered by the ;difficult child' thing. In the email, you acknowledged that it hurt me to hear that...but then you went ahead and said, 'but you were a difficult child, at least difficult for your mother to raise.' And that was painful because you acknowledged it hurt me, then reiterated it." T: "Well, I was just trying to point out that you were probably a challenge for her to raise." Me (crying): "But the thing is, I've been telling myself that my whole life, how I'm the one who was the problem, and now it feels like you're just reinforcing those negative feelings. So how is that supposed to help me?"

T: "Well, I assume you would consider D to be a difficult, challenging child, right?" Me: "Yes, but that doesn't mean I'd expect her to forgive me for failing to meet some of her needs. I think that's what's hard for me, that it seems like if I was difficult, it was OK that my mom didn't meet my needs." T: "I've said multiple times, including, I think, in the email, that it's the parent's responsibility to adapt to their child. Not the other way around." Me: "yeah...but if I forgave my mom, it feels like I'm letting her off the hook for that." T: "It's not about letting anyone off the hook. It's for you to move forward."

Me: "I guess it's just...I mean, there was stuff I specifically asked her for, like seeing a T when I was in high school. And she wouldn't do that. I mean, I guess she had me see a psychiatrist for a bit when I was 12, but that was more I think because they didn't know how to deal with me, it wasn't so much that I was suffering." We talked about that briefly, the few memories I had of that p-doc, how I felt she wasn't overly helpful. Then shifted to discussing how my mom seemed to want to keep mental illness hidden. And how she didn't seem to have much empathy for her brother, who is bipolar and has had some substance-abuse issues. And how my cousin's daughter had issues with depression, and I told my mom (as an adult) how maybe i could reach out to her and share my experiences, and my mom was like, "No, don't do that!" I told T I reached out anyway, but didn't share many details about what I'd gone through, just said I was there if she needed to talk. T: "So it sounds like your mom has a certain stigma about mental illness." Me: "Yeah...I wonder if it's because she doesn't want to recognize her anxiety in herself. Like...how someone might present as homophobic because they have trouble coming to terms with their sexuality." T said was good comparison.

Me: "The thing is...her attitude toward mental illness just contributed to my feelings that I was screwed up. And I would often think I was less deserving of love because of my mental issues, from my parents or from anyone." T: "I would argue that it actually made you *more* deserving of love." Me: "What..?" T: "Don't you think you probably give your daughter more attention in some ways because she has special needs?" Me: "Yeah, I guess I do." T: "Well, I think you should have gotten more love and attention from your parents because of your struggles. Not less." His saying that really resonated with me. It counteracted a belief I'd had since childhood.

Somewhere in there I said in his talking about how I should forgive, it felt a bit like he had an agenda for me. That he though I needed to be a certain way. How that reminded me of my mom, thinking I needed to be a certain person even though it isn't who I am. T said he didn't have an agenda for me and wasn't trying to make me into someone else. T: "But I do have a vision for you: that you'll be able to become more at peace with your emotions and with yourself." I was sort of touched by that, partly in how he said it and looked at me? I could feel the caring--and maybe even love?--coming from him there.

I forget how we transitioned to this part (maybe it was earlier?), but I shared some of how I'd felt the day before, after receiving his email.

Possible trigger:

Me: "I'm afraid to share this. I know it's really messed up. But I guess I should. When I was driving toward D's school yesterday to pick her up, I was looking at the light poles and thinking to myself, 'I wonder how fast I'd have to drive into one to...' I'm sorry, I know that's screwed up. It was before I got her, of course I'd never do anything with her in the car. I'd never hurt her. I mean...I guess if I'd done something to myself that would have hurt her... But I was thinking, 'Well, I have to pick her up.' I don't think I would have done anything. But I hate that I had that thought, I hate that my mind went there. It scares me. I don't want it to go there."

I nervously looked at T. He had an caring, sort of sad look. T pointed at some papers, "Was it all because of these?" Me: "Because of what?" T: "The email exchange?" Me: "Not just that, more what the feelings dredged up from my past, from childhood, those sorts of feelings." T: "OK."

I said that maybe I'm doing too much, pushing too hard in therapy right now. How I've kind of gotten to a point where I've mostly worked past the ex-MC stuff and now I'm diving right into all the childhood stuff, and maybe I'm pushing too hard? Plus trying to walk a couple times a week, do yoga a couple times a week, cut back on drinking, eat more healthily... T: "That does sound like a lot at once." Me: "Yeah...and I don't know what the answer is. Just push a bit less on stuff in here? Stop going twice weekly for a bit? Take a break, whether see someone else for a little bit or just a break from therapy entirely for a bit? I don't know." I forget what T said to that, but we were out of time, so no time to really address it.

I said I knew we had to stop, but the session had been really helpful. That I felt we'd worked through things. How I know we'll have a conflict, then I'll come in and we'll work through it, and maybe it could seem like...oh you'll just say something nice then I'd be OK. T: "Like I'd backpedal or something?" Me: "Yeah...but I don't feel like you did that. The thing is, if we couldn't work through it, then...why would I keep coming back?" T: "If we couldn't work through things, then that would be an excellent reason for you to to terminate." Me: "Yeah...But we have worked through things."

Confirmed next Monday and Thursday. Went over to pay, confirmed how much he was charging me for email ($45), which I'd already agreed to (was concerned would be higher). Shook hands as he said, "Have a good week. Oh, and I guess a good weekend, too." Me: "Thanks, you too." I glanced back at him as I walked out the door, hoping he would look up, but he didn't. I very quietly said, "Bye."

Still feeling good about the session a couple days later (no urges to contact him or anything). I think we communicated well and understood each other. I think the most important part is that he seemed to understand why I was upset and where I was coming from.

[comrademoomoo]

I think forgiveness is a difficult theme for women. We are taught to be understanding, malleable, and to deprioritise our needs in preference for those of others. If we are angry or hurt or resentful or show our "ugly" emotions then we are exiled or admonished. I am not sure that forgiveness has much of a place in most women's recovery from hurt. I don't think our emotional responses and associated choices need to be binary; we can be unforgiving without being bitter.

My mother was abusive throughout my childhood. I don't forgive her and I don't accept her behaviours; I understand that her mental illness and alcoholism caused her to be abusive. Her behaviour is her responsibility. As such, it is her responsibility to forgive herself and accept her actions, I am not accountable for forgiving her.