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Default May 05, 2019 at 08:42 AM
  #341
So this thing he said really knocked me out: T: "But I do have a vision for you: that you'll be able to become more at peace with your emotions and with yourself."

I think the word "forgiveness" has some stereotyped cultural baggage attached to it, probably steeped in religious tropes. Like the idea that it means you go up to someone an announce "I forgive you" when I think T is talking about an internal process that may have forgiveness as a piece of it, or not. Not necessarily forgiveness of her, but even if it seems like this is something to explore, it doesn't involve the other person at all, if you want it to. I think it's just a big umbrella under which peace might be found, but it's not the only umbrella around. But working towards peace seems like the right way to go about it, no matter what that includes.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 09:07 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Anne2.0 View Post
So this thing he said really knocked me out: T: "But I do have a vision for you: that you'll be able to become more at peace with your emotions and with yourself."

I think the word "forgiveness" has some stereotyped cultural baggage attached to it, probably steeped in religious tropes. Like the idea that it means you go up to someone an announce "I forgive you" when I think T is talking about an internal process that may have forgiveness as a piece of it, or not. Not necessarily forgiveness of her, but even if it seems like this is something to explore, it doesn't involve the other person at all, if you want it to. I think it's just a big umbrella under which peace might be found, but it's not the only umbrella around. But working towards peace seems like the right way to go about it, no matter what that includes.
I feel fairly certain this is exactly what he is talking about.

I have had some real monsters in my life, and it was only when I reached that place of forgiveness that I was able to find some internal peace.

Forgiveness, for me, is not dependent on that other person at all. It is not an "acceptance" of their behavior nor of the situation at all. It does not require them apologizing; I could wait for hell to freeze over and that would never happen. It has nothing to do with forgetting; the healthy mind doesn't work that way. But if I waited for me to "accept" what happened to me or what they did, if I waited for them to apologize, if I waited to forget, I was going to live in anger and anxiety and bitterness and depression for the rest of my life. And I was tired of living that way; I had done that for far too long and it was eating my soul.

Forgiveness was me choosing to put aside that history once I had looked at it enough and realized it wasn't going to change; it wasn't going to go anywhere. I had looked at it enough; why keep looking at it if it wasn't going to change and looking at it continuously caused me pain?

It's kind of like when a horrible disaster happens and you get stuck watching all the news coverage of it. You can't turn off the television for some reason. You hunt for more and more information, and it's all the same and all bad and all horrible to look at. At some point, you have to stop looking or it consumes you; it becomes traumatizing in itself.

My history with my monsters had become that for me. It was a deliberate act to decide to put it aside and look in another direction. For me, that was my moment of forgiveness. It was a letting go and an allowing my life to move on without that baggage.

My therapist talked about putting my history in a box on a high shelf way in the back of my closet. I know it's there. I can choose to pull it out again if for some reason I need to, but it's in a box behind other stuff. I don't see it every day. I forget about it for long periods of time. Where did I put that box anyway? Oh well, I don't need it right now. I'll look for it later.

It's so much more peaceful with that history put away. I can breathe again. That's what forgiveness has turned out to be for me.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 09:13 AM
  #343
The forgiveness is really for you, not the other person.

I think of it as a modern view of forgiveness that is similar to loving kindness meditation. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but I was thinking your T may have had this in mind. The loving kindness is something I am trying to do in my effort to deal with some anger issues. I haven't found other ways to get past a few things that left me stuck for longer than I what would have been expected. But I have made progress and am getting there.

Your T will help you get to where you want to be.

This person sums it up in a simple way:

Quote:
In fact, you may never say the words “I forgive you” out loud. Instead, forgiveness is an internal process, something you do to help come to terms with a past experience and end your suffering, pain, anger, and resentment around the event. You simply decide to stop focusing on blame and instead move forward in a more positive direction.

Why Forgiving Others Is the Best Thing You Can Do—for Yourself - Happify Daily
Loving kindness meditation:

Quote:
Loving-kindness meditation (LKM) is a special type of Buddhist meditation that aims to cultivate unconditional kind attitudes toward oneself and others. The core psychological operation is to keep generating one’s kind intentions toward certain targets, while the detailed operations vary across different Buddhist traditions. Generally, practitioners silently repeat some phrases, such as “may you be happy” or “may you be free from suffering” toward targets. In some traditions, they also visualize the mental image of the targets or light from one’s heart toward others to help the generation of intentions (Sujiva, 2007). The targets change gradually with practice, following an order from easy to difficult; they generally begin with oneself, then loved ones, neutral ones, difficult ones and finally all beings, with variations across traditions. Buddhism claims that LKM cultivates four sublime attitudes called “four immeasurables”: (1) loving-kindness, which refers to unselfish friendliness; (2) compassion, which refers to a willingness to cease the suffering of the distressed one; (3) appreciative joy, which refers to feeling happiness for other’s success or fortune; and (4) equanimity, which refers to calm toward the fate of others based on wisdom.

The effect of loving-kindness meditation on positive emotions: a meta-analytic review
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Default May 05, 2019 at 09:32 AM
  #344
Artley - well put. And now that i know and accept what is in the box (definitely not candy!), i dont keep opening it up and looking for candy. That was the hardest part for me.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 09:44 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
Artley - well put. And now that i know and accept what is in the box (definitely not candy!), i dont keep opening it up and looking for candy. That was the hardest part for me.
Yeah. It was hard to put it away. I struggled with feeling like I was somehow betraying myself. It took a long time to get it into the box, and then deliberately making room on that shelf was another chore, and then having the courage to put it up there on that shelf, out of sight, was another step.

But then it was done. And it was SUCH a relief when I finally did it.

I rarely look into that box anymore. It isn't candy in there, which keeps me from that temptation. I completely understand what you are saying. It's more like I know it is Pandora's box. I now fear opening it again and not being able to put the lid back on. Some things are better left in a box on the back of the top shelf.

I know what is in there. I don't have to look at it again to somehow make it more real.

It was interesting when my mother passed away and we were cleaning out her house. She had SO much put away, literally, in boxes on high shelves in the back of closets, in the attic, under the beds. And in looking at what was in those boxes, we realized MUCH of it was memory, MUCH of it was very painful memory. And our sweet mother had had the wisdom to literally put those things away, out of eyesight, out of constant memory. Smart woman. She always was a woman able to find peace within herself. I know how she did it now. I wish I had learned sooner.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 12:28 PM
  #346
What you all seem to be describing is resolution, an internal process which does not necessarily require the other. This is quite distinct from forgiveness which is relational by nature.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 12:47 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by comrademoomoo View Post
What you all seem to be describing is resolution, an internal process which does not necessarily require the other. This is quite distinct from forgiveness which is relational by nature.
I agree with this. What many people are describing above sounds like a healthy internal process, but it doesn't sound like the more traditional/common definitions of "forgiveness," at least the ones I'm familiar with. So it seems like we're arguing about concepts, but mostly I think we're arguing about semantics.

Based on the definitions I'm still finding in dictionaries and on-line, and the cultural and religious connotations of the term forgiveness, I'm in no hurry to adopt it to describe this internal process, but I understand that for others it has evolved to mean this.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 02:30 PM
  #348
Yes, there is certainly a difference in semantics here. I would also say that for me, it is important to differentiate when I forgive someone in a more traditional sense, and when I am doing this other internal process being described. For me, it doesn't feel accurate to call them the same thing. I forgive my dad for his physical abuse when I was young. I truly don't hold it against him and we have a very good relationship. When he does something that makes me angry, it does not summon thoughts of the physical abuse because I truly forgave him and moved past it in how I thought of him and related to him.

I certainly don't forgive the perpetrators who sexually abused me. I think anger is an appropriate emotion to feel towards them. I won't pretend I am currently at peace with what they did, either - so I haven't forgiven them, regardless of the definition.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it's important to me personally to differentiate between the forgiveness of my dad and any possible outcome of how I think about and relate to the perpetrators of sexual abuse. It will never be the same thing to me, so I don't want to use the same word. I don't plan on opening my heart to these people as if they had not done what they did, and for me, that is part of forgiveness. I can't say I forgive someone while also wanting nothing to do with them because of what they did, and also feeling less empathy and compassion towards them than I would someone who had not hurt me. The latter doesn't mean I sit around wishing them ill, but I would not feel the same instinctual sense of concern for them if something bad happened as I would for a stranger. That would create cognitive dissonance around my definition of forgiveness.
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Default May 15, 2019 at 01:25 PM
  #349
I appreciate all the discussion about forgiveness and what it means to people. How there are different definitions. I think acceptance is what rings more true for me. We haven't so much discussed it the past few sessions--didn't write up the ones from last week, but posting this Monday's now. (My mom did come up briefly there.)
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Default May 15, 2019 at 01:34 PM
  #350
T Monday. It was pouring rain as I drove to the session. When T retrieved me, I *thought* he said, "Is it a bit wet?" (referring to outside). Me: "Actually, very wet." T: "You're very wet?" Me (my brain jumping to the potential other meaning there): "What? I thought you asked about outside?" T: "No, I asked, 'Are you a bit wet?' and you said, 'Very wet.'" Me: "Oh, I misheard you then, I just meant the outside in general." One of those sort of...awkward beginnings. At least I was walking in front of him, so if my face turned red, he couldn't see it...

We sat down. T: "So how are you?" Me: "Well, I survived Mother's Day." T: "I can see that!" Me: "haha." T: "So you survived from both sides then, as mother and daughter?" I said yes and mentioned having dinner with my parents the day before, how it went OK. Talked about D being super cranky that morning, which was like "Happy Mother's Day to me!" T asked if she was at a point where she would adapt her actions to how someone was feeling. I said not really, that she might comment that I'm not feeling well, but didn't so much think "Oh it's Mother's Day, I should be nice." I said I wasn't sure if that was the autism or her age. T said at 8, it's common for kids to struggle with that, so maybe both.

I said how I'd felt really sad Saturday night but wasn't sure why. That I thought maybe part of it was that I'd just bought a Mother's Day card, and it can be hard because I see my mom differently now from being in therapy. That I used to get her really mushy ones, but have trouble with that now. And I ended up just getting a semi-generic daughter and son-in-law card.

T asked if I felt my mom was introspective at all, like did she examine herself. I thought for a minute and said I feel she examines other people, but not so much herself. T said he got the same impression. T: "I know I've mentioned this many times to you about her clearly having anxiety. But I'm not sure if you've really accepted it?" Me: "I don't know..." I started crying. Me: "I guess it's just, if she does have anxiety, then why isn't she more accepting and understanding of me?" He said she might not be aware of the anxiety in herself.

I said how for me, it helps me to talk about my own experiences with someone else who had shared them. I said I'd had lunch on Friday with the woman, K, I'd met in the online autism group, and it was just nice being able to talk to someone who had similar parenting experiences. T: "It can be really helpful to talk to someone who really understands, can't it?" Me: "Yeah. Like connecting over issues with having our kids figure out how to blow their noses. Though maybe most parents deal with that, I don't know." I was mentioning the lunch and said I almost called it a "session." T smiled: "A playdate?" Me: "Sure, we can go with that."

Me: "Oh, so something interesting: I saw K Friday and my friend J the Friday before. Normally, afterward, I'd be obsessing about the conversation, like, 'oh no, I forgot to ask her about x' or 'did I talk to much about y?' 'Will they not want to get together again?' But instead...I realized I was just thinking, 'That was good to see them.'" T gave a big smile: "That seems like a positive thing." Me: "Yeah, it was nice. And K said at the end that we should get together again soon." T: "That seems promising!" Me: "Yeah."

I said that Mother's Day also made me think of ex-T. How I thought about emailing her Happy Mother's Day, but wasn't sure if that would be weird. So I thought I could send her an update email because it had been almost a year. Me: "But the furthest I got on it was just the subject line, 'Update on how I'm doing.'" T: "That's a very succinct update!" Me: "Yes, I guess it's just, 'still exist!'" T asked what I wanted to tell her. I said I wasn't sure, how part of me wanted to say he was helping me, but I felt awkward about that. T: "Why?" Me: "Well...this might be a weird comparison. But it almost feels like if I was emailing an ex, who I'd dumped, saying how happy I was with who I'm dating now." T said that T's are generally happy that their clients are doing well, even with someone else.

Me: "I guess maybe I'm concerned she'd feel she'd failed me?" T: "You think she might feel that way?" Me: "I don't know. And I guess I still feel bad about how I left. Like, 'OK, going to see this other person, if nothing else, I'll be back to terminate.' Then I never went back." T: "Would you be emailing for you or for her?" Me: "That's what I'm not sure of. Maybe it's out of guilt? That's why I'm struggling with what to say." T said I could just send something brief. I said I could mention how D is doing. I said how in some ways I feel guilty that I don't miss her more. Me: "Like, there are no songs that I associate with her, like with ex-MC." (I didn't mentioned that I do have a few songs I associate with T.)

I went back to talking about feeling really sad Saturday night, like crying in my car on the way home from the grocery store. I said I'd thought about emailing T, but realized he wouldn't read it that night, so I'd wait to see how I felt in the morning, but even then, I'd be seeing him the next day, so may as well wait. He seemed impressed by that.

T: "So what do you think was going on? Was it something besides the Mother's Day thing?" Me: "Well, I was also listening to some music I associate with ex-MC. So it may have been about him. I feel like recently I've been missing certain things about him--is that maybe a sign that I'm in a different stage of grieving?" T: "Sounds like it could be." Me: "OK, good. And part of why I'm listening to the music is that...you know the band I saw when I wrote the email to him? I'm seeing them again next month in the same venue where I saw them that time." T: "I thought you'd seen them again already?" Me: "Yes, but in a different venue, with H. And I've been back to that venue to see a different band." T: "Just not the two combined?" Me: "Yeah, and I'll be alone this time. So it's like I'm trying to listen to the couple songs I associate with him that they usually play...so maybe I can get used to them and not get all emotional."

Me: "I had the thought...I wondered about playing one of the songs in here and talking about the emotions it brought up. But I wasn't sure. Because I mentioned something about playing a song in here before and you'd seemed uncertain." T: "Well, I wanted to figure out what you hoped to get from it. Would you hope I'd get the same feeling from the song?" Me: "I mean, I wouldn't expect you to have the same reaction to the song I did. Plus I know you're not into music. I'm not thinking 'this is the song that's going to convert you'!" T: "OK." Me: "Though I am kind of a music evangelist." T: "Yes, I got that sense about you."

Led to me discussing how important music (in general) is to me, which made me start crying. Me: "Ugh, why am I crying right now?" T: "Music obviously has a lot of meaning to you." Me: "yeah." I said maybe I needed to use it more. T talked about possibly playing an instrument, how some people find that a good emotional outlet. I said how H has a guitar and I always wanted to learn. He said seemed like a good option. And then he was talking about how making music, the rhythm can connect with the body's rhythms, about feeling it in one's body, something like that. That it can be meditative. I said going to live shows is kind of like that for me, being able to feel the bass in my body.

Went back to the idea playing a song (from my phone) for him in there thing. I said how it just felt like something I wanted to try. He said would fine as long as it wouldn't disrupt anyone. I said I wouldn't come in and play a drum kit or something. And that I wouldn't subject him to my singing, because then he might have to bill me a surcharge. T: "For pain and suffering?" Me: "Exactly."

I said I still felt a sense of reluctance from him. Kind of the same when I mentioned bringing in some photos to share (which I never did). Me: "Is it just that you want to know what I want to get out of it?" T: "Yes, to know your expectations. How you expect me to react. So that you don't end up disappointed if I don't react a certain way. Plus if you played a song for me, I'd feel really awkward if you were just sitting there staring at me, waiting to see my reaction." Me: "I wouldn't stare at you. I could close my eyes if that would be easier." T: "Or stand in the corner. No, I'm just kidding about that." Me: "I could wait in the hallway." T: "I would just ask, if you want to play me something, to print out the lyrics. It can be difficult to understand singers sometimes." Me: "OK, though it's not just about the lyrics, but them mixed with the music. Again, I wouldn't expect you to have the reaction I do. I could print them though."

He was saying that if it was more about the lyrics and about what the song meant to me, then what did I feel was the benefit of playing it for him rather than just sharing the lyrics and discussing what it meant. Me: "I don't know...I just feel like I want to share it. Like...it's this inner part of me that maybe I can't express in some other way. It's a certain vulnerability, to share that. I think maybe i just want to see what it feels like?" T: "OK." I knew we had to stop, and T picked up his phone to schedule.

Confirmed Thursday. T: "You here next week?" Me: "Yes, I'm here. Are you here?" T: "I'm here." Me: "OK then." Scheduled usual times. Went over and paid. Shaking hands. T: "Good luck out there." Me: "Thanks, I'll do my best to stay dry." T: "Take care." Me: "You too."
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Default May 15, 2019 at 01:58 PM
  #351
LT--I didn't really get why there had to be a big (it seemed big) discussion about playing a song for him. But I do understand him wanting to know what you wanted from it so that you wouldn't be disappointed. That makes sense. I know when I shared a song via text message with former T she just said something like, I could see why that song means a lot to you (or something like that). It wasn't about what she got out of it, but that she could see me through the song, or something like that. I wonder if that is how it is for you? Seems like a good session though. Great job about not having a lot of anxiety over meeting with your friends. That seems like big progress. Well done. HUGS Kit

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Default May 15, 2019 at 02:49 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by SlumberKitty View Post
LT--I didn't really get why there had to be a big (it seemed big) discussion about playing a song for him. But I do understand him wanting to know what you wanted from it so that you wouldn't be disappointed. That makes sense. I know when I shared a song via text message with former T she just said something like, I could see why that song means a lot to you (or something like that). It wasn't about what she got out of it, but that she could see me through the song, or something like that. I wonder if that is how it is for you? Seems like a good session though. Great job about not having a lot of anxiety over meeting with your friends. That seems like big progress. Well done. HUGS Kit
I'm not sure. I think it felt a bit like rejection, how I'd mentioned it a couple times in the past (along with the showing him pictures thing). And I guess I just needed to know why. Like why not just say, "Sure, if it's something you want to do." I appreciate that he's trying to avoid having me do something with certain expectations, then being let down by his reaction or just from the experience as a whole not leading to what I'd hoped to get out of it.

I think the issue is, in discussing it so much (over a few sessions, one being months ago), now it almost feels like a bigger thing. Like if the first time I mentioned it, he was like, "Sure go ahead," then I probably would have done it, and then it would have turned out however it did, I likely would have just moved forward (maybe played something again, maybe not).

But I know he's trying to be careful and responsible and a good T. Yet there's this element of, I want to express myself, and it seems like he's saying, "eh, maybe?" instead of go for it. (I mean, of course there are forms of self-expression that *wouldn't* be ok, like if I wanted to take my clothes off or destroy his office or something.) So I have to wonder if this is tapping into something else in me, like from childhood maybe? Like when my parents wouldn't let me express myself a certain way? (Well, my mom always refused to buy me a guitar, for one. And said I had too much music, so if I bought a tape or CD--with my own money--I'd often sneak it into the house. So maybe this is tied into that in some way? I'm still contemplating playing something (fairly short, maybe a pretty straightforward song) at the start of session tomorrow, and if it feels too weird after a minute, I could turn it off. Or if he is just sorta like "Uh, OK." And the discussion doesn't go anywhere, we'd have plenty of time to discuss something else...
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Default May 15, 2019 at 03:08 PM
  #353
I hope whatever you choose to do turns out well for you.
This isn't the exact same thing, but my parents did not like me painting my nails black. And although it wasn't a "goth" thing with me, I just really like the way they look...it was a shutdown of self expression that I think all children/teenagers need to go through as they develop their identity. I could see how having your music shut down be a significant issue for you, as a person's musical choices often correlates, in my opinion, to their identity as well. HUGS to you! Kit

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Default May 15, 2019 at 03:11 PM
  #354
I may be totally off base here, but I think your T is just being cautious. I totally get how you are worried, but maybe he’s concerned that if you play a song and he doesn’t react in the way you are wanting that it will cause more harm then good.

For me, I appreciate music. Sometimes a song “speaks” to me, but more often then not, it’s background noise. Maybe your T is the same way? In a general sense, he may have been totally fine with playing a song in session. But take a client- you- who he knows feels and thinks about things deeply, and a song is no longer just a song. If it’s important enough for you to bring to session, it’s meaningful. And maybe he just doesn’t want to mess it up?

Oh, and for what it’s worth- my 7 year old daughter can’t figure out how to blow her nose, either. Drives me crazy, as my 5 year old daughter has figured it out, but it’s just one of those quirks that we deal with as parents!
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Default May 15, 2019 at 03:24 PM
  #355
For me, the idea and impulse of wanting to share music with someone to whom you feel a connection is a teenage desire. I am thinking of mixer tapes (or whatever these rebellious youngsters get up to these days with their Spotify playlists) sent to our hearts' desires in the hope that in hearing the music they will also hear our inner self. I think it is a lovely impulse and it reminds me of blossoming identities and passions. I would feel rejected in your position. It seems that your therapist is not welcoming your teenage self and that seems like a missed therapeutic opportunity.
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Default May 15, 2019 at 03:44 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by comrademoomoo View Post
For me, the idea and impulse of wanting to share music with someone to whom you feel a connection is a teenage desire. I am thinking of mixer tapes (or whatever these rebellious youngsters get up to these days with their Spotify playlists) sent to our hearts' desires in the hope that in hearing the music they will also hear our inner self. I think it is a lovely impulse and it reminds me of blossoming identities and passions. I would feel rejected in your position. It seems that your therapist is not welcoming your teenage self and that seems like a missed therapeutic opportunity.
This makes a lot of sense, especially because the stuff I was saying in reply to Slumber Kitty is from my teenage years. And at times, I do feel that I'm being a teenager with T. With ex-MC, I think I was more of a child. With T at times it feels like I'm acting out the stuff I couldn't as a teen, since I didn't truly rebel against my parents (it was like they wouldn't let me, and I was too caught up in being the good girl...I guess I did some rebellion in college and my early 20s). But with him I'm doing stuff like, "OK I'm going to see another T to talk about you without telling you first" and "I'm gonna tell you the negative things other people have said about you."

And I appreciate you saying you'd also feel rejected in my position. I initially wanted to send him an email Monday night saying something to that effect, then realized he'd probably just say that he didn't tell me I couldn't play it, he's just being careful. I think he wants me to fully understand why I want something when I'm asking for it. But sometimes I *don't* really understand why, and maybe I need to do the thing first to really understand. This feels important to me, but I don't know why. To me, that should signal something.
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Default May 15, 2019 at 03:52 PM
  #357
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I may be totally off base here, but I think your T is just being cautious. I totally get how you are worried, but maybe he’s concerned that if you play a song and he doesn’t react in the way you are wanting that it will cause more harm then good.

For me, I appreciate music. Sometimes a song “speaks” to me, but more often then not, it’s background noise. Maybe your T is the same way? In a general sense, he may have been totally fine with playing a song in session. But take a client- you- who he knows feels and thinks about things deeply, and a song is no longer just a song. If it’s important enough for you to bring to session, it’s meaningful. And maybe he just doesn’t want to mess it up?

Oh, and for what it’s worth- my 7 year old daughter can’t figure out how to blow her nose, either. Drives me crazy, as my 5 year old daughter has figured it out, but it’s just one of those quirks that we deal with as parents!
Thanks, Mully. Yeah, he's said before that music doesn't really do anything for him. So I suspect that lots of people in his real life (maybe clients, too) have tried to get him into music. And maybe they were bothered by his reaction? He has come to understand how sensitive I can be to things he says and does. So if I play something and he's just like, "OK, so that was a song," will it bother me? I guess I was thinking about it, and it's like...even if he's not that into music, presumably he's at least passingly familiar with, say, the Beatles or the Stones. So if I was saying their music really spoke to me, he'd have some concept of what I meant. But here, the bands I'm into, I seriously doubt (unless by some chance his wife, brother, friend, etc. is into them) he'd know. So part of me just wants to be like "Here's what I'm listening to."

It does mean a lot if he's that concerned about messing something like this up. It probably shows he cares more than if he was just like, "Sure, whatever, play what you want." But I'm not even sure that it's about his reaction at all, but just the experience of playing something for him. I don't expect him to "get it." But maybe others have expected that and gotten annoyed or frustrated with him when he didn't?

And glad/sorry you have the same issue with your daughter! D seems to get angry at me when I try to explain, too. Somewhere I read to have a kid blow out a candle with their mouth, then ask them to do the same with their nose, but haven't tried that yet...
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Default May 15, 2019 at 04:53 PM
  #358
For some reason, and my parallel may be completely off, your T's response to being asked to listen to a song with you, reminds me of conversations I've had with a friend or two when they asked me to accompany them to a very intimate medical procedure. I wanted to help in the best way possible, so I asked a bunch of question like "do you want me to come into the examination room with you or wait in the waiting room?" Do you want me to stand by your head? Do you want me to hold your hand? Do you have questions for the doctor you want me to be sure the doctor hears? And so on. I think when the other partner in the relationship wants to help in an awkward and/or new territory, understanding what you need and what you want from them is pretty essential. I tend to run with the theory that most of therapy is relational, where we show the T what kind of partner we are and they show us what kind of effect we have on them. Although I understand you feel rejected, is this really an accurate interpretation of what this interaction really was?

I'm not sure that desiring to share your inner world through a song is very interactional, though. It seems kind of imposing something on someone without being willing to hear his feelings about it. There are times and places for sharing one's inner world, but the recipient ought to have a voice in it. Expecting someone to receive information without being a part of understanding the meaning of it and how it will go seems unfair and one-sided, almost like he doesn't matter in the transaction.
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Default May 15, 2019 at 05:31 PM
  #359
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For some reason, and my parallel may be completely off, your T's response to being asked to listen to a song with you, reminds me of conversations I've had with a friend or two when they asked me to accompany them to a very intimate medical procedure. I wanted to help in the best way possible, so I asked a bunch of question like "do you want me to come into the examination room with you or wait in the waiting room?" Do you want me to stand by your head? Do you want me to hold your hand? Do you have questions for the doctor you want me to be sure the doctor hears? And so on. I think when the other partner in the relationship wants to help in an awkward and/or new territory, understanding what you need and what you want from them is pretty essential. I tend to run with the theory that most of therapy is relational, where we show the T what kind of partner we are and they show us what kind of effect we have on them. Although I understand you feel rejected, is this really an accurate interpretation of what this interaction really was?

I'm not sure that desiring to share your inner world through a song is very interactional, though. It seems kind of imposing something on someone without being willing to hear his feelings about it. There are times and places for sharing one's inner world, but the recipient ought to have a voice in it. Expecting someone to receive information without being a part of understanding the meaning of it and how it will go seems unfair and one-sided, almost like he doesn't matter in the transaction.
Interesting comparison with the medical procedure.

For the second part, I guess part of why I'm sharing it in session is so that we can talk about it, so that I can talk about why it has meaning for me. I'm not just going to play it, then switch to a completely different topic. I guess I don't see this as being so different from, say, my telling him about a dream I had. Where things/symbols may mean something to me, but it's partly on me to explain what the elements mean to me. Or even, say, a childhood memory that's really significant in my head but might seem really random to someone else. Like, "Why does she remember that, above all other memories?" I share something, it opens up a dialogue. If it goes nowhere, we move on.

I partly thought it would help me get in touch with some stuff about ex-MC that I can't quite seem to reach--particularly the more positive memories, which T has said is part of what should come out when i'm further along in the grieving process (to be able to hold onto positive memories along with the sadness). Because some of these songs, I associate with leaving session with him (ex-MC) and feeling all warm and fuzzy. I was starting to connect with some of those feelings the other night, I think, when I was listening to the music. Then there are some I associate more with sadness, with wanting more than I could have with him (I was only planning to play one at this time). So like I'd play something then talk about why it means something to me. Maybe it makes no sense to him, and that's OK. It's trying to tap into other places in my brain, see what comes out.
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Default May 15, 2019 at 05:41 PM
  #360
I wrote something in another thread about art not being a great way to communicate, which I stick by... at the same time I understand the urge. Music is important to me and it affects me strongly. Sometimes I talk to my T about specific artists or songs, and he usually hasn't heard of them. Music is important to my T, too, but I don't know many of the artists he likes, either; we just have different tastes. But he often repeats quotes from songs. And in fact I don't like it very much when he does that. Usually I don't really know what he's trying to say and I have to ask him to explain it, and when he does it feels kind of flat and not very interesting, maybe because it's not really his own thought. So I guess I see sharing art or music as using someone else's expression in place of your own expression, when it would probably be better for you to look for your own expression, if that makes sense.
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