[LonesomeTonight]

Session was intense and painful at times, but ultimately good. I think we came to an understanding and a way forward. And I now have a better sense of how much thought he puts into his work with me.

[comrademoomoo]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Session was intense and painful at times, but ultimately good. I think we came to an understanding and a way forward. And I now have a better sense of how much thought he puts into his work with me.

Sounds a lot like falling for his charm again. Watch out for yourself.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

Sounds a lot like falling for his charm again. Watch out for yourself.

Yeah, I know—I am trying to be careful. And my thoughts of termination came up. And I expressed some anger. I didn’t just give in by any stretch. It was very much a dialog. I didn’t let him take control. And I think he realized and respected that.

[Yellowbuggy]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

Sounds a lot like falling for his charm again. Watch out for yourself.

I disagree. I don't think T is falling for T's 'charm' but rather recognizing the value he's providing to her in session, which she is seeing evidence of in real life. This is the true measure of the success of therapy.

I love this T. He reminds me a lot of my T. He's direct, honest, and communicates his boundaries clearly and consistently. This is important for people like LT and I (sorry LT, hope you don't mind that I lump you in there with me).

My T once told me I was histrionic. He didn't say it in anger or disgust, but rather plainly - as though he was telling me I had a poppy seed stuck in my teeth. He used the word to describe my tendency toward being overly dramatic and excessively emotional. I felt like I'd been punched in the gut. However, as painful as it was to hear, it was true. Once I got through the emotional distress of being described as histrionic by someone whose respect I so desperately sought, I was able to see it as a bit of a gift. He didn't like me any less because I was histrionic, and I would not have learned that lesson if we didn't face it head on. I can be histrionic AND likeable.

LT, we both have a tendency to over-analyze. I think your T is tailoring your therapy for your needs - not because he doesn't understand psychoanalysis, but rather because he doesn't think participating in in-depth psychoanalysis will help. For example, I believe he addressed your affinity for the term 'transference' once, asking if perhaps you were connecting everything to an emotion rooted in the past when that isn't always the case. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I have OCD as well. I tend to need things to be done my way to relieve the discomfort. By not agreeing to your request to stand at the end of session, he's forcing you to face the discomfort of not having your way. You will not progress if you do not experience the discomfort and move through it. Discussing what it means to you is important, but not getting what you want is equally as important.

[susannahsays]

Haven't read back yet to see what happened, but I am reminded of the way some people have compared therapists to prostitutes. The way I see it, a therapist who says specific words or phrases just because I've said I want to hear them is very much an emotional prostitute. Personally, I'm also not comfortable making demands about what the therapist does with his or her body. So long as my own physical autonomy is respected, I just let the therapist and psychiatrist do what they like. If I wanted somebody to say what I want, when I want, and do what I want with their body, a therapist would not be who I would pick.

Maybe he felt like you were being a bit controlling, and that was why he refused to stand. Not sure, but glad you came to an understanding.

I have a controlling streak, and the therapist has told me as much, so I'm not trying to be judgemental by saying maybe there was something controlling about this.

[LonesomeTonight]

OK, here's the very long session update (I even left a couple things out!):
T Wednesday. A thunderstorm was brewing outside, which seemed fitting. I walked back and he asked if I wanted to pay first (we'd discussed that Monday). I said yes. T said this could be awkward because we'd have to discuss email charges, but I said I'd rather do that now than at the end. I bargained him down on price (to the same hourly rate as the reduced rate I pay for sessions). Paid, then sat down.

T: "So have you thought about what you want to start with?" Me: "First, I read through the email I sent you again, and I feel bad about some of what I said, that I was kind of harsh." (I started crying.) Me: "So I'm sorry about that. And then I wondered if I felt bad, was it OK to still be angry and hurt by your response? I'd asked my friend, and she said I could feel both remorse and anger at the same time. So, that's what I feel, I guess." T: "OK."

I said the other thing I was thinking was that this wasn't just about the standing or what he said at the end of session. That I'd mentioned that in the email and wanting his help to figure out what it was really about, but that he'd seemed to just ignore that part. T: "Well, most of your email was about the standing, so it seemed that it was really about that. So that's what I responded to." Me: "I guess your email just seemed it was a lot about you, not me, like how you handle other people. And it also just seemed really harsh."

I forget which comment it was on, but I said something, and there was an immediate rumble of thunder after. Me: "Well that seemed kind of ominous." T: "Or the thunder was agreeing with you." We both kind of laughed and it helped break the ice a bit, I think.

Me: "If you had said in session what you did in the email, that you had personal reasons for not standing and they weren't related to me, I'd have felt better about it. But instead, you were just like, 'Then I'd have to stand up and sit down. Well, I'm not changing my routine.' I guess it wasn't quite in that tone..." T said I was putting a spin on what he said, or something like that. T: "It's really more about my setting boundaries. I don't want to do something just because you asked me to. It felt like you were trying to control me. The email felt like that, too."

Me (sobbing): "But my aim wasn't to control you at all. I was just trying to ask for something I needed, or, really, something I wanted. It's very difficult for me to do that. And then I just felt shamed and scolded for doing so." T (caring voice): "I'm sorry you felt that way." Me: "And now I worry that anything I ask you for...you're going to say I'm micromanaging you, that I'm trying to control you..." I forget what he said there.

I said how I thought maybe this was transference, replaying something from my past. That I know he doesn't generally work that way, but I hoped he could help me figure it out. T said how his first thought with things like this is that they *are* about him. And that's the sense he got from my email. He wondered if it was about his being away. T: "I've been away 2 of the last 6 weeks. You may feel upset that I've taken your therapy away from you, and you have every right to feel that." Me: "Yeah,..I may have been reacting to that partly." T: "I wondered if you were trying to take back some control, in a sense. Because you felt you didn't have it with my leaving."

Me: "I think part of it was, in Monday's session, you just seemed really distant. I wanted to connect to you, but it seemed like you were resisting it. I mean, I know you were just back from vacation." T: "I may not have been at my best Monday." Me: "I know it's not fair to always expect you to be at your best. But it just felt like you were being defensive or something. And so I think maybe I became more desperate almost, like I thought the standing thing would be an easy thing to resolve and then it just wasn't. And I felt really hurt by it, so my email was kind of lashing out. I know it's not the best way to deal with things, but when I'm hurt, that's sometimes what happens, like I'm an animal or something...And I'm sorry about that." T said it was OK. Me: "But then it felt like you lashed back, too." I think he apologized there?

I said how sometimes it feels like I'm just trying to get a feeling of caring from him, that I know he cares, but he's not that demonstrative with it. So then I get a bit of it, but it only lasts so long, so I want more. And it's really difficult. And I wanted to learn how to hold onto the caring, whether from him or from anyone, which he agreed is a good goal, "but not something that can be solved in one sentence."

T: "I know this language has caused issues with you in the past, but I care very much about your well-being and your success." I said my issue before is that he said that (I think without the "very much") but was unwilling to say "I care about you." T: "I'm saying it that way because it's a professional relationship. I mean, you're not my friend." Me: "I know, but I think of, 'I care about you' for anyone, whether coworker, family member, friend. And what you say about me sounds like less caring." T: "It's not about the amount of caring at all. It's just the type." Me: "OK." He said the way I care about my D is likely different from how I care about anyone else. Same for H. Or my mom. I said that made sense, that I guess his brain categorizes things differently than mine.

He said (referencing his backup, who'd touched my back when I left the week before) that he's never going to pat me on the back or hug me. Me: "I know, and I accept that." He said how some T's do use touch more. I said that ex-MC didn't aside from shaking hands, but he was more demonstrative verbally. T said he also disclosed a lot about himself, unlike him. I said that Ex-MC made lots of disclosures about his life but not of how he felt in reaction to me. That T shares much more about his thought process and how he handles therapy with me.

T said something interesting. He said he knows I'll wonder what's going on in his head, so he tries to tell me, so that I don't have to wonder or so that I don't assume wrong. I asked if that meant he did that more with me than other clients, and he said yes, that he mainly just does that with me. And he hopes I can take that to other areas of my life, where instead of assuming what someone is thinking, I'd ask them. He said he also tries not to disclose much about himself personally to me, because I'm like "a magnet" for that information and trying to figure him out. And he's trying to keep all the focus on me, not him.

Somewhere in there, he also said that he'd charged me for 15 minutes of email time, but in reality, he spent like 90 minutes on it. That he was doing other stuff for some of the time, but he put a lot of thought into it, and that he tends to do that for emails to me, to consider how I'll react to them. (Note that he didn't say it in a "you should be grateful for all the time I spend" way, but more like he was letting me know how much consideration he does put into my therapy.) Which (he didn't say this) also shows his caring.

T said he got the sense from one of my emails that I was thinking of terminating--did I still feel that way? Me: "I don't know...it's helped to talk this through. But I feel like we keep having these conflicts, and I worry we'll just keep having them. I feel you've really helped me in some ways, and I like working with you, but then I wonder if you're the right T for me?" T: "I don't think I'm the right person to answer that. And I just want what's best for you." Me: "I know...it's like I have these doubts, but then there's this other part of me that feels I need to work this through with you, that you can really help me."

T asked what I had doubts about, and I said how many people say I need someone more psychodynamic or humanistic. Or maybe someone more touchy-feely, I don't know. He said he wondered whether that would necessarily be good for me. I said I wondered the same thing, like maybe it's what I want vs. what I need. That I seem to be making progress with him.

Me: "But one of my friends said, reacting to your email, that she hated to say this, but maybe you're tired of me. And I really wondered if that was true, because I see where you could be, that I can probably be very frustrating client." T (caring voice): "Oh my goodness..." Me: "I mean, you could get rid of me if you really wanted to." T: "Move offices and leave no forwarding address? That would be kind of harsh." Me: "Yeah, I'm sure you could find other ways." The way he smiled and looked at me during that exchange made it feel like he definitely wasn't trying to get rid of me. Honestly, I felt a sort of...fondness from him is the best way I can describe it.

I said I knew we had to stop. He confirmed that we'd scheduled, then (because I'd paid at beginning) he stood up, walked over to the door, and opened it. He remained standing when he held out his hand. We shook hands as he said "Have a good weekend." Me: "You, too." T: "Be well." Me: "You, too." It felt...nice.

[LonesomeTonight]

Also, we had this email exchange that evening/morning:
Me: "Thanks for today’s session. There were some difficult/painful moments, but also some good ones. And we talked about a lot of things that needed addressing. I feel that we can move forward from this. Thanks for putting so much thought and effort into my therapy. It means a lot."

T: "Thank you for this email, LT. I'm glad you felt our meeting was positive, and I look forward to continuing to work with you."


The last part of his reply felt nice, especially in light of my mentioning I was worried he was tired of me.

[JaneTennison1]

You rely on triangulation a little bit. I know that is not a new idea as SD mentioned it too but I noticed it a few times. Bringing PC or friends into it, maybe as a way to voice the hard questions? I wonder what would happen if you asked the things you wonder about directly? I also sometimes wonder about your crying, if it is a way of getting T to say something caring or act caring? (Which isn't a conscious thing I don't think, after all a baby will cry until it is held or its needs are met, it knows that is how this works) This sounds like a bad relationship where the other party constantly persuades you to come back even though it is not doing what you need it to.

All of the above sounds harsh which I don't mean but I guess there it is. Ultimately I hope it helps but I can't help but be reminded of when you were with MC and how you would tell everyone it was helping you, only for it to explode later. Now your focus is on T and I hope sincerely it doesn't explode. You deserve wellness.

[JaneTennison1]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

T asked what I had doubts about, and I said how many people say I need someone more psychodynamic or humanistic. Or maybe someone more touchy-feely, I don't know. He said he wondered whether that would necessarily be good for me. I said I wondered the same thing, like maybe it's what I want vs. what I need. That I seem to be making progress with him.
.

On this point I just wanted to say that I found a T who would meet all of my needs and as soon as I did and she did, they no longer became compulsions or things I had to fight for and it freed up so much space to work on the things I need to rather than constantly fight for what I wanted.

[susannahsays]

On the topic of control... When the therapist has described my actions as being controlling, I think my motivation has been anxiety and even fear. The person that I am trying to control is doing something that feels threatening to me, so I try to control them to mitigate the threat. Not saying that is a justification, but it tends to be what is at the root of my controlling behaviors. For example, when I first started working with the therapist, I felt threatened by her classification of some stuff that had happened to me as abuse. I demanded that she retract this opinion and admit she was wrong or not only would I not come back, but I wouldn't let C come back, either.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by JaneTennison1

You rely on triangulation a little bit. I know that is not a new idea as SD mentioned it too but I noticed it a few times. Bringing PC or friends into it, maybe as a way to voice the hard questions? I wonder what would happen if you asked the things you wonder about directly? I also sometimes wonder about your crying, if it is a way of getting T to say something caring or act caring? (Which isn't a conscious thing I don't think, after all a baby will cry until it is held or its needs are met, it knows that is how this works) This sounds like a bad relationship where the other party constantly persuades you to come back even though it is not doing what you need it to.

All of the above sounds harsh which I don't mean but I guess there it is. Ultimately I hope it helps but I can't help but be reminded of when you were with MC and how you would tell everyone it was helping you, only for it to explode later. Now your focus is on T and I hope sincerely it doesn't explode. You deserve wellness.

I'm unclear as to why you say my T keeps persuading me to come back. This time, for example, when I questioned if he's the right T for me, he said he wasn't the person to answer that question. And that he just wants what's best for me. The stuff about whether I'd be better off with a warm/fuzzy T--that's come up time and time again. And much of it is me saying that part of me wants that, but part knows that it might not be best for me in the long run. So he tends to just agree with that. In part because he knows what happened with ex-MC. And T has said multiple times that he's completely fine with my seeking consultation, and if I want to see another T for some stretch of time, I'm always welcome to come back to him.

Ex-MC, on the other hand, did try to keep me/us seeing him after the rupture (which we did for a bit). He was saying how I needed to work things through with him. And at one point (may have been before that) suggested that if I didn't work through the transference with him that it would just happen again, like I was doomed. He also said that I should work through stuff with ex-T (after I'd switched to current T), to work through the negative maternal transference with her, even though she'd showed no interest in working through it. Even in the session where I said I wanted to terminate, he was all, "You don't have to decide now, we can keep the door open and you can come back in a month or two," and I was like, "No, I need to close the door."

As for crying, I wasn't really allowed to cry as a child, was punished for it at times and expected to keep my emotions--sadness, anger, etc.--inside. So the fact that I can express them to T is saying something. And I'm able to express anger and hurt toward him like I have to no one else. That contributes to why I want to keep working with him, because I can let those emotions out there. I know you may be reading my writeup and thinking "But she's not really letting them out" or "She still seems afraid of expressing herself." But for me...that's progress. Trust me. And I'm doing that more in my outside life, too. To the level that a few people have commented on how I've changed. So I feel this T is helping me. Because I can look at how I was 2 years ago vs. now, and it's a big difference. I still have a ways to go, but I'm moving in the right direction (taking steps back along the way, but who doesn't?)

I know it's easy to want to compare him to ex-MC, but they're so different in how they approach therapy and boundaries. And the relationships are very different. H also sees a big difference in how I react to/relate to them and how I talk about them. I know i defended ex-MC for a long time, but I realize now what was going on there, with his wildly inconsistent boundaries (including his acceptance of all kinds of things I said and did). If nothing else, T has his boundaries, and he holds to certain things, no matter how much I push up against them. And I think that's exactly what I need, even if it doesn't feel good sometimes.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

On the topic of control... When the therapist has described my actions as being controlling, I think my motivation has been anxiety and even fear. The person that I am trying to control is doing something that feels threatening to me, so I try to control them to mitigate the threat. Not saying that is a justification, but it tends to be what is at the root of my controlling behaviors. For example, when I first started working with the therapist, I felt threatened by her classification of some stuff that had happened to me as abuse. I demanded that she retract this opinion and admit she was wrong or not only would I not come back, but I wouldn't let C come back, either.

Thanks for sharing this. Yes, I definitely think my requests were coming from a place of anxiety and fear. I think T was accurate in saying some of it was set off by his being away. He'll also be away at the end of this month for a bit. I think in a way, his generally being so honest with me (like about if something I say/do bothers him), is really scary to me. Because I'm not used to that from people in my life, who tend to hide away their feelings either for good or until they explode. I'm not used to being informed that something I said/did bothered someone--and that the relationship is still OK. To me, someone being upset with me feels like--OK, I've messed up, now time for the abandonment.

I don't think I included this in the writeup, but there was something I mentioned where I was like, "And I was scared you were going to scold me about this." And I realized that the word "scold" is such a child thing--and mentioned that. But it's just the fear that if someone is upset with me, that it's the end of the world. T is helping me see that I can do things that bother him, but it's OK. (Ex-MC tried to teach me that with H, but it didn't seem to stick.) I think going through this relationship with him is teaching me more than any warm/fuzzy therapist could. More painful in short term, but better in long term (I hope!)

"The fear that if someone is upset with me, that it's the end of the world" that is so me too.

[unaluna]

It sounds to me like you and he DID work thru this. You (plural) linked your request to his vacation. It was your classic tantrum, just like my classic tantrum when my t went on vacation was to ask if he was going to stop by my apartment on his way to/from the apartment. As you can see, i like the classic tantrum aspect of it. I think thats when you know youve hit paydirt. Plus it simplifies things. Which is what a schema is/does.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by ArtieSwimsOn

"The fear that if someone is upset with me, that it's the end of the world" that is so me too.

Thats how they controlled us. We were sooooo effing stupid. Thats why i feel justified in hating them now. They reeeeeally took advantage of my precious innocence

[JaneTennison1]

sometimes persuading someone to stay doesnt look like a verbal request. Sometimes its changing tactic and being a bit more caring or subtly putting down other therapies or therapists or even double bluff "if you wanna go maybe you should" knowing that the other person wont and will stroke your ego to say how right you are.

But then also maybe you resolved things and he is good and strong. I simply dont know and view things through my own lens and twisted reality.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

It sounds to me like you and he DID work thru this. You (plural) linked your request to his vacation. It was your classic tantrum, just like my classic tantrum when my t went on vacation was to ask if he was going to stop by my apartment on his way to/from the apartment. As you can see, i like the classic tantrum aspect of it. I think thats when you know youve hit paydirt. Plus it simplifies things. Which is what a schema is/does.

Agreed that I feel we did work through it. And I feel I learned quite a bit from both having the conflict and talking it through. (Not that I want conflicts every week of course!) More than I'd have learned if he'd just given in to what I wanted. Or if his reply to my email was just "I'm really sorry I upset you. Of course I can stand." I didn't grow up experiencing healthy conflict (or any conflict, really--well, very little), so perhaps this is a way of my learning it. So this might be considered a schema then? I don't know too much about those.

[unaluna]

I think the schema part is - idk, id have to look it up. But that you react by saying "do this or else!" My reaction was seductive, also extreeeemely weird. I mean wtf. Who was that directed at at home? When i saw the original movie Born Yesterday with Judy Holiday, i was like omg, cuz my parents had wanted to name me Holiday, since i was born on a sunday. And they said sunday was a holiday. Lie! But i think they just liked judy holiday. But she had that dumb seductive style.

[blackocean]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I'm unclear as to why you say my T keeps persuading me to come back. This time, for example, when I questioned if he's the right T for me, he said he wasn't the person to answer that question. And that he just wants what's best for me. The stuff about whether I'd be better off with a warm/fuzzy T--that's come up time and time again. And much of it is me saying that part of me wants that, but part knows that it might not be best for me in the long run.
s.

Why do you think it’s not the best for you to have someone warmer? Boundaries can still ne firm with a warm person like the woman who put her hand on your shoulder, or someone who wouldn’t be freaked by the stone thing, etc etc. Maybe it’s good to work through that need to “ask for more” for “proof” of care with someone who is more understanding of transference and attachment problems bc he really doesn’t seem to get it

Edit: also it’s okay to want a warm therapist, just because you crave warmth from people doesn’t mean that need is something you need to deny yourself in your therapy, imo, I don’t want a cold therapist and I am not like you at all really

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I

As for crying, I wasn't really allowed to cry as a child, was punished for it at times and expected to keep my emotions--sadness, anger, etc.--inside. So the fact that I can express them to T is saying something. And I'm able to express anger and hurt toward him like I have to no one else. That contributes to why I want to keep working with him, because I can let those emotions out there. I know you may be reading my writeup and thinking "But she's not really letting them out" or "She still seems afraid of expressing herself." But for me...that's progress. Trust me. And I'm doing that more in my outside life, too. To the level that a few people have commented on how I've changed. So I feel this T is helping me. Because I can look at how I was 2 years ago vs. now, and it's a big difference. I still have a ways to go, but I'm moving in the right direction (taking steps back along the way, but who doesn't?)

But didn't you say cried at the marriage counselor as well? And whenever you and your husband have a fight?