[susannahsays]

I recall reading write ups where he has done or said something "warmly." Using that specific word. So he is warm. Not being "warm and fuzzy" does not mean someone is just cold and distant.

As long as this therapist feels helpful to LT, I see no reason to go searching for something else - especially since incompetence can masquerade as understanding transference. I've read of many therapists on this very board who all appeared to understand up until the moment they didn't - and terminated or otherwise really harmed the client. LT already had one such experience with ex MC, who said all the right things but actually had no clue what he was doing. Then when push came to shove, she was the one who got hurt, as is always the case. At least this therapist seems relatively honest for one of his ilk.

LT, I think it continues to be a good call to distinguish what you want from what you need. Maybe at some point, your needs will change, but I bet putting your wants on the back burner will pay off in the end. Also keep in mind that everybody's advice to you about leaving or staying with your therapist has a generous dose of projection added in. For example, people who want you to see a more warm and fuzzy therapist might read your write ups and feel vulnerable, insecure, and misunderstood when you do if they have similar issues to you, or if they have personally found therapy with a warm and fuzzy therapist most helpful. Likewise, people who defend your therapist might be working with therapists who aren't warm and fuzzy, but whom they feel loyal to for whatever reason. Maybe their therapist is really effective and they just want you to experience this. Or maybe they feel defensive on their therapist's behalf for not being warm and fuzzy. My point is, everybody is projecting and nobody is objective - and none of the examples I gave have anything to do with you or what would work best for you.

Obviously, I include myself in people who project and aren't objective. I'm only mortal. Just saying.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

But didn't you say cried at the marriage counselor as well? And whenever you and your husband have a fight?

Right. But i thought that this time they started working thru the crying. Part of it is by changing when she pays. That might not seem like a big deal, or that his standing now is incidental to that. But she DID effect a change, and not by tantrum, and i think thats huge.

Plus i always hated doing business at the end too. Must be something they learn in school. It sucks.

[JaneTennison1]

the weird thing is that my "warm and fuzzy" t has way better boundaries than any of the others. she offers hugs and care but also makes it extremely clear that none of what happens in that room is about her and her needs. I am a chronic attacher to people and when they are fuzzy it makes me fuzzy. I thought having someone meet my needs would unleash a huge obsession and make me just want to be cared for but it seems to be the opposite. T offers care so freely it makes it safe to explore my reactions and feelings for maybe the first time ever, there is no obsession. It frees up a lot of head space when you can't think exclusively about whether you do the "right" thing to keep a person accepting you.

[susannahsays]

There's nothing weird about a warm and fuzzy therapist having better boundaries than any of the other therapists you have worked with, because they are not mutually exclusive states.

[comrademoomoo]

It makes me sad to read your clearly identified and articulated desire for warmth alongside your justifications for denying yourself the opportunity to experience that warmth. It's not obvious to me why it's not good for you in the long run to experience boundaried warmth. How can you do any work around "warmth" (your desire for it, your current and past experience of it, etc) if you aren't in the business of warmth with your therapist? Craving warmth is not something you need to minimise (are you afraid of getting lost in the desire?) and self-denial will not improve your relationship with warmth.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

Originally Posted by JaneTennison1

the weird thing is that my "warm and fuzzy" t has way better boundaries than any of the others. she offers hugs and care but also makes it extremely clear that none of what happens in that room is about her and her needs. I am a chronic attacher to people and when they are fuzzy it makes me fuzzy. I thought having someone meet my needs would unleash a huge obsession and make me just want to be cared for but it seems to be the opposite. T offers care so freely it makes it safe to explore my reactions and feelings for maybe the first time ever, there is no obsession. It frees up a lot of head space when you can't think exclusively about whether you do the "right" thing to keep a person accepting you.

The same as true for my current T, she has excellent boundaries, is a very safe T and readily gives me a big squeezy hug at the end of sessions. It's just what I need at this time. BUT years ago I was seeing a T who refused to hug me or touch me in any way and that was also exactly what I needed at the time. I needed to learn to connect in an emotional way not just physical. Had she started giving me hugs I would have fixated on them in the same way I did with my first therapist I saw when I was very young. Hugs and touch can not only help the therapeutic process but get in the way of it.

It sounds like LT feels this T is right for her and no one can know what is right for her at this time apart from LT. We can make suggestions obviously, especially if there's doubt involved, but ultimately LT knows what feels right and how much progress she is making.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by stopdog

But didn't you say cried at the marriage counselor as well? And whenever you and your husband have a fight?

In looking back over what I posted, I realized I was unclear in how I strung that paragraph together. I know I talked about expressing emotions in terms of crying in the first part and being able to let them out. What I meant by how I've changed is more that I can express other things with people, too. Telling T that something he did bothered or angered me. Or if a friend or H is telling me something that's just making me feel worse about whatever I'm talking about, maybe I'd say, "You know, this isn't helping me right now. Can we talk about something else?" Which I suppose one could see as controlling, but I think is also a form of boundaries. (And friends have done this with me, and I respect them for doing so, where in the past I'd have thought "Oh no, I've ruined our friendship forever.") Or, with my mom, just not telling her about certain things (where in the past, I felt like I should share most everything). Or calling her out sometimes if she says something that offends me. Hope that makes more sense. It's not just the crying.

[susannahsays]

I think sometimes crying is a result of the anxiety created by not expressing things like anger. C is very passive and not good at expressing anger. She cries when she gets angry even though she tries not to.

And that's not to say that I don't think crying can sometimes be used to control people, whether intentionally or unintentionally. I just wonder if part of what might be going on here (given that you weren't supposed to show negative emotions as a child) might be crying due to anxiety over expressing emotions. Maybe it's not always a situation itself that makes you cry, but the stress of communicating about it. I wonder if it's similar to how my demeanor becomes rather hostile when I have to communicate about certain things that make me feel vulnerable. While you tear up or even sob, I tend to show outward signs of anger with my body language and tone of voice. Perhaps both are just defenses against perceived threats to communicating with other people. Maybe we just deal with it in different ways.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

I think sometimes crying is a result of the anxiety created by not expressing things like anger. C is very passive and not good at expressing anger. She cries when she gets angry even though she tries not to.

And that's not to say that I don't think crying can sometimes be used to control people, whether intentionally or unintentionally. I just wonder if part of what might be going on here (given that you weren't supposed to show negative emotions as a child) might be crying due to anxiety over expressing emotions. Maybe it's not always a situation itself that makes you cry, but the stress of communicating about it. I wonder if it's similar to how my demeanor becomes rather hostile when I have to communicate about certain things that make me feel vulnerable. While you tear up or even sob, I tend to show outward signs of anger with my body language and tone of voice. Perhaps both are just defenses against perceived threats to communicating with other people. Maybe we just deal with it in different ways.

I actually said something similar to T in our extra session today (had rough night last night), how it's difficult for me to deal with telling someone that I'm angry with them or that they hurt me, so it often comes out with tears. I think it is a sort of defense, yes. I want to work on changing that though. Because if I'm telling someone I'm angry at them, and crying at the same time, I imagine it has a rather mixed effect. That the crying would take away from any strength of my words. And it makes sense that you might use anger as a sort of defense.

[Xynesthesia2]

Regarding expressing anger (or just dissatisfaction) directly and constructively - I guess that's what learning to be more assertive implies. I think it is a skill definitely worth working on and I personally believe it is easier to practice with someone who is quite direct and honest rather than someone who wants to please you and use subtle emotional manipulation to change your anger. It is not all bad not coming back aggressively to people's opinions and feedback though. In a way, I think this is also why your posts here interest many people and why people actually express their varied opinions to you, because you rarely become very defensive, unfair and dismissive (some other posters do and that's usually the end of any constructive discussion). It creates an impression that you are quite open-minded and receptive - I imagine your T shares what's on his mind also at least partially because he sees these features. It's like it's actually worth the time and energy to give you detailed feedback vs. to someone who would not even listen or would straight reject it. I think it makes you quite appealing to communicate with. Well that, plus your own detailed, authentic expressions and the depth with which you approach things. Of course it can hurt to be so vulnerable because you do not escape and detach from your feelings as a defense - that's what I tend to do, for example. I believe somewhere in the middle is the best compromise.

I also very much agree with susannah about everyone's projections (I think I said similar before). For example, I often hesitate to respond because I am aware of a strong bias I have for your T and don't want to say things that are primarily motivated by wanting to defend someone/something I subjectively like and think it would work for me. It is actually quite interesting because I tend to be pretty critical about therapy and Ts in general, the bias is clear. I was also going to say that, ultimately, the quality/outcome of therapy is to be measured by what sorts of improvements it leads to in your life rather than how you feel in a given moment... but I am not sure that is correct for everyone. I guess you already know what it's like to have a T who is more warm and fuzzy and thus more satisfying in the moment - the question is whether it is associated with other qualities and improvements. I doubt that a perfect T exists, so all of them will have traits that are appealing/useful and others less so. I would ask myself what are the things most important for me to have a more fulfilling life and better mental balance, and who is the most likely to provide that or help you achieve that. If you are unsure, I would experiment more and make conclusions from varied experience. You could indeed interview a few more Ts and maybe see another one for a while that seem to satisfy you in different ways - see what happens, why not? I don't think clients need to be loyal to Ts in ways we are to other people in life, in "ordinary" relationships... maybe better to be loyal to your own genuine needs and life goals. And I also don't think warm and fuzzy behavior has much to do with someone's boundaries and effectiveness unless they are warm and fuzzy as a manipulation tactic, not because that's their genuine personality. I have met plenty of people I would describe as warm and fuzzy, who also had excellent, healthy boundaries and self-confidence... and many people who appear quite detached and hesitant to engage not because they have good boundaries but because they are highly avoidant and insecure. Ultimately, in professional contexts, I usually prefer whatever/whoever is most constructive and contributes productively. In many ways, I think my own therapy was not very useful in the past because I choose Ts who were not very compatible with me for the sake of larger goals and did not contribute much in that sense. One of them was very pleasant but little else, they just did not challenge me or not in ways appropriate and helpful for me. But if your primary need is to feel cared for in more personal ways and to have unconditional support, then you can choose with keeping those needs and qualities in mind. I agree with your T and others here that it has to be your decision, everything else is just opinions a suggestions.

[LonesomeTonight]

I don't think I updated on this thread, but Monday, T finally said that the main reason he doesn't want to stand it because it hurts his back to stand up and sit down from his desk chair (which is just like a dining room chair, not a comfy one on rollers). I said his back issues aren't anything new, because he mentioned earlier this year about injuring his back and how it kept bothering him, plus he sits on this special back support contraption in his regular chair (the one he sits in for session). That I'd rather him have just said that. How it would have been, "I'd rather not have to stand up then sit back down in that chair because it hurts my back." And I would have just said, "Oh, OK, I understand, no problem." That it could have saved both of us a bunch of grief.

He mentioned again about how it seemed I wouldn't take no for an answer, and that he shouldn't have had to explain himself. But I said that was such a quick, easy explanation, and it wasn't new info that his back was injured, so I'd have just accepted it. Or even if he'd just said "personal reasons." But that it felt more like, "Nyah, I'm not gonna stand up just because you asked me to." He asked if I meant it seemed passive-aggressive. I said a bit, or else at least stubborn. I said was partly because of what he'd said Thursday about how he didn't want to be controlled and wouldn't just do something because I wanted him to. That it sounded like he wasn't doing it on principle, not for some particular reason. That even if he'd said he has a good reason for it, would have helped. I forget what he said to that.

There was also something in there (later in session) about why he doesn't disclose more, and he said about how my mind is "a steel trap," which is the same as a phrase my mother has used with me. And he said how I hold onto to any little piece of information, which is the sort of thing she's said, too. So I think that triggered me, even if he didn't mean it that way at all. There was definitely something that session that triggered me, as

Possible trigger:

I had some fairly strong SUI later that afternoon

. Which led me to text to ask if he could see me sooner, and he offered a Tuesday session, which I took (and which went fairly well). I emailed him something very brief later to explain why I wanted the extra session (I'm not supposed to do that in text, as that makes a scheduling text "more intrusive"), and he said he was very sorry to hear I felt that way and thanking me for telling him. May write up part of Tuesday's session--I'm seeing him for our usual time in a little bit (I opted to keep this session because, as I said to him, I'd rather try to get all this resolved before I then he goes away at the end of this month, so an extra session would help with that--he said made sense).

[LonesomeTonight]

(will also reply to other posts later!)

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

...it could have saved both of us a bunch of grief.

He mentioned again about how it seemed I wouldn't take no for an answer, and that he shouldn't have had to explain himself.

But that it felt more like, "Nyah, I'm not gonna stand up just because you asked me to." He asked if I meant it seemed passive-aggressive. I said a bit, or else at least stubborn.

I said was partly because of what he'd said Thursday about how he didn't want to be controlled and wouldn't just do something because I wanted him to.

That it sounded like he wasn't doing it on principle, not for some particular reason. That even if he'd said he has a good reason for it, would have helped. I forget what he said to that.

So this is why i think this t is good for you. Yeah you went thru grief on this, but i would bet dollars to donuts this is a common grief in your extended household.

So it would be great if, for instance, your parents could say no to you for something, or you could say no to them, and it just be ACCEPTED. No we dont want to do that this weekend, period.

I have no idea how to do this, of course but thats why youre paying HIM the big bucks, not me! But it probably applies on a micro level too. Wear this shirt FOR ME today. (Or dont? I just remembered about the fish shirt!) Its about boundaries?

[Lonelyinmyheart]

Oh LT, it sounds so complicated. I can understand you feeling frustrated with your T for not just explaining why he can't stand. It sounds like he wanted to look at what he perceived to be the underlying issues - not sure how much is his counter transference, but sounds like he wanted to make a point of saying he wasn't going to change his behaviour. Maybe something in him didn't want to be honest at the time about how much his back issues are affecting him. It does sound really sensitive for you both so I hope you can work with it before he goes away.

[SlumberKitty]

LT, it still seems to me that he could have saved you a lot of grief by just saying, my back hurts. I don't want to stand because my back hurts. I don't know why he went into the whole, I don't want to be micromanaged thing. Not criticizing your T just saying....sometimes T's make bigger things of things than they need to. I think they have a therapeutic point they are trying to make but not everything needs to be drawn out. It seemed to cause you unnecessary pain and I'm sorry you went through that. Not to say that you aren't stronger for having gone through it, but sometimes pain is just pain and there's no reason for it. Not being critical, just trying to tell you I'm sorry you were in pain for a reason that would have been easily explained.

[nottrustin]

Do you think it is possible that he feared by telling you it hurt too much then you would qorry about him and focus on his pain?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

Do you think it is possible that he feared by telling you it hurt too much then you would qorry about him and focus on his pain?

Definitely. Because he's said that's part of why he's concerned about disclosing too much, that things will become too about him. And he knows I care about him. At first (like 9 months ago maybe?) he didn't seem to accept it, like saying, "You can't care about me, you don't know me!" But it came up again recently, where I explained that I cared about the person I knew him as, who he was to me--I mean, we spend 2 hours a week talking--and he got it more and seemed to accept it. He also said I do know quite about him, like not his autobiography, but other things about how he presents himself and does therapy.

So I appreciate that he's trying to keep the focus on me, but it's hard at times. I'm a naturally caring person. And it was really difficult with ex-MC when at one point he said, "You're not supposed to care about me, I'm doing something wrong if you do" (yeah, he was doing lots of things wrong, but I'd likely have cared about him regardless). As I've said to T, therapy is just such a weird, complicated relationship, and there's nothing else in life I can compare it to, so it's hard to know how to handle it. He seemed to get that, too.

Also, today he shifted to talking about my goals in therapy, so I think he was trying to step back from talking about the therapeutic relationship.

[Xynesthesia2]

Now I really tend to agree with your perceptions and feelings more than his strategy, and my parents (or anyone) never treated me that way. I mean, come on... why to make such a fuss about a pack pain that is extremely common in people?! My second T also had a back issue and eventually underwent surgery for it, although that was after I stopped seeing him in sessions, but told me that he had a back issue that troubled him very early on, once when I commented after a session (via email)that he seemed unusually disconnected that day. He responded immediately because he was very tired as his back pain disrupted his sleep the night prior. That was very easy to understand and it never even occurred to me to ruminate on it any further, just said something along the lines of "I am sorry, hope your back will get better soon". He told me about the surgery many months later, also in an email, when I inquired whether he would be available for a session after I no longer had regular sessions with him. Again, there was nothing weird about it and it did not make me preoccupied at all or make me fee I wanted to take care of him, but perhaps you are different in this sense.

In any case, if the same things happened to me, I would also definitely comment back to the T that it was completely unnecessary and please next time be as direct as he usually likes to be about other things - it will save a waste of time and energy. Perhaps some Ts (especially those who are more psychoanalytical) would see this as an opportunity to explore stuff about the client but your T does not usually come across to have that type of interest a lot. It really more sounds like he is primarily insecure about his health issue rather than anything else. People tend to hide insecurities and discomfort and sometimes project it onto others, make it sound like they hide to avoid discomfort for the other person. It can be BS sometimes

[ArtleyWilkins]

Seems like both of you overly complicated this particular issue (maybe you are more alike than you realize). You were focused on a minor issue of sitting/standing which really wasn't about your therapist at all. He was focused on a minor issue of not disclosing too much when a simply "I have a bad back" would have sufficed. It seems like you tend to get stuck on the details and he kind of has that same issue with details in that he is trying too hard to keep that distance through not disclosing details.

The happy medium would be 1) you stop getting hung up on the details and just accept "no" as an answer without continually harping on the details once someone has told you "no" so that you can stay focused on the bigger picture, and 2) your T stop getting so hung up on not disclosing details that it becomes a bit ridiculous and just feeds your drive to know more detail.

You said: "There was also something in there (later in session) about why he doesn't disclose more, and he said about how my mind is 'a steel trap,' which is the same as a phrase my mother has used with me. And he said how I hold onto to any little piece of information, which is the sort of thing she's said, too." This struck me because I think what your T is saying is that you do tend to get stuck on those little details and its like you can't let them go. He is sort of walking a tightrope with you. If he gives too much information, you'll over-interpret all those details and start focusing on him instead of the work you really need to do in therapy, and if he doesn't disclose enough, you pretty much do the same thing -- you over-interpret any lack of information as having meaning and get hung up on it. He's sort of damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

[Xynesthesia2]