[susannahsays]

My impression is that working with transference is not only about discussing the there and then but also the here and now - which can involve therapist disclosures of their reactions to your transference (whether you want to classify this as countertransference or not). I do think insight based on the past can be helpful, but only if it's applied to the present. Otherwise, what's the point?

I think you've said many times when you have a reaction that it's not really about him, it's about something in your past. I would try reframing this as it's about you and the way you see and relate to things. Because just saying it's about the past seems to minimize that whatever dynamic happened then is something that is being reenacted in the here and now.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Lonelyinmyheart

He is sharing a lot of his emotions and responses, I would struggle with that. I have had Ts in the past who weren't dissimilar actually in the kind of responses they gave me, and I found myself becoming more and more distressed and pulled into a very difficult dynamic as a result. I had a T who told me she felt controlled by me because I sent a text when I was upset, and stuff like that. And each time I tried to sort it, it ended up more distressing and actually rather like my difficult marriage in a lot of ways. I know that my T was triggered because she was having strong counter transference feelings towards me in wanting to look after me as a child (this was obvious to me as time went on) which as a T she knew she couldn't, but we went deeply into what felt like a power struggle because we were battling each other emotionally. So I think I get it.. It sounds to me like your T is absolutely having emotional reactions to you, he's triggered and doesn't know how to deal with the situation effectively in a way that doesn't worsen things for you. There is a place for a T to disclose their emotions and be real, it's good sometimes to do that, but if the T is triggered, that is just a receipe for disaster.

Thanks, Lonely. Yeah, a power struggle is what this feels like at times. I'm not normally like this with people. For a while, I thought maybe it was good that he was drawing stuff out of me. But it's starting to feel almost...toxic or something. Like we both keep triggering each other.

T has told me he shares his feelings with me more than with his other clients because he knows I'll wonder what's going on in his head. And he doesn't want me to wonder or try to guess. But as I said Tuesday, the thing is, what's actually been in his head lately has been worse than I'd have imagined it being. Which then makes me worry what everyone else in my life is actually thinking of me (I do check in with some of them, like my H). He also told me somewhat recently how he imagines my H must be frustrated with me about a certain issue. So then I got all stressed about that, finally asked my H, and he said that T was wrong, he isn't feeling that at all (H was annoyed with T when I told him he'd suggested it). So he caused me unnecessary stress. And it's not the first time something like that has happened.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

It does sound really hard LT. I don't feel it is right for a T to say that about your H or indeed anyone, as it's about you in the room with him, no one else. I can see what you're saying before that he makes a lot of stuff about him. Maybe it was his frustration that he was projecting onto H? I can only say what it sounds like from my perspective and obviously I don't really know, but I do know what it's like to work with a T where you feel completely stuck in a dynamic that sucks you in deeper and deeper. In my case, trusting my intuition/gut feeling was the right thing to do - I sensed I'd gone as far as I could with a T, and that turned out to be correct. I know it's hard for many people in therapy to trust themselves though due to trauma etc. If your T is able to contain your anxieties that would be good, but it seems you don't feel reassured by anything he says and even feel he makes things worse. My current T is really excellent at containing the catastrophic stuff that sometimes goes through my head, and the difference to me is astounding. She doesn't get drawn into anything, but is by the same token deeply empathic. Having gone through intense battles with past Ts, it really does make a difference. There are two of you in this, and yes you're the one having the therapy, but T has his own issues as well, and it does seem that they are playing a part in all this. I think you are wise to seek out consultations with other Ts, if only to have a break and a breather.

[comrademoomoo]

I feel disorientated, annoyed and weighed down when I read about these different therapists with whom you are consulting/working. It seems that you are juggling different reasons (even potential reasons) for these explorations which are set alongside the different (often conflicting) opinions posted here. It all sounds full and busy, so much chatter. Can you imagine what feelings you might have and what choices you might be making without all this external chatter from others (including those whom you invite to speak)? I am losing a sense of where you are.

[nottrustin]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Sure, here's a few recent examples (I know others might disagree with these being about him):

--His talking about feeling "trapped" into replying to me a couple Fridays ago when I was in a bad place
--His saying he was worried about liability and admitting how that was selfish of him
--His saying how he doesn't like to be micromanaged or controlled. And then going on (in email) about how he's the same way in his outside life and that he also doesn't expect other people to do something just because he asks them to (I don't care what he does in his real life).

--His talking about how it felt manipulative that I said maybe I needed a different T
--His saying it would be a problem if his backup T "stole" me from him. Then later, when I asked him to clarify, he said it wouldn't cause problems between me and him but between him and her. Which, yeah, I don't care.

--His saying how he spent much more than 30 minutes on my emails, but he's only going to charge me for that amount of time because he thinks of the customer at times.
--(perhaps a less good example) His saying the other day that lately I just keep pushing him to show he cares. Which is part of what's behind his frustration. I said I imagined it was partly related to his being away a bunch, and he said, "I'm sure it is," but then he didn't explore that at all with me.
--Back with the stone thing, when he was superfocused on his reaction to it, not mine

With ex-MC, if I had some reaction to him, he often would tie it into something from my childhood. He'd look at what was going on with it. Until what happened at the very end, he didn't share how he was personally reacting to things (even then he didn't fully share). He had his faults, but he kept things in a therapeutic direction and kept his emotions out of the therapy room. Which I think is related to his psychodynamic training maybe?

but if he doesn't share what he is thinking you keep pushing until he does. In my experience therapists do feel frustrated and may even get upset but the deal with it on their own and keep it out of the therapy room. You seem to push and push because you don't take no for an answer and have a need to know.

[Amyjay]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Sure, here's a few recent examples (I know others might disagree with these being about him):

--His talking about feeling "trapped" into replying to me a couple Fridays ago when I was in a bad place
--His saying he was worried about liability and admitting how that was selfish of him
--His saying how he doesn't like to be micromanaged or controlled. And then going on (in email) about how he's the same way in his outside life and that he also doesn't expect other people to do something just because he asks them to (I don't care what he does in his real life).

--His talking about how it felt manipulative that I said maybe I needed a different T
--His saying it would be a problem if his backup T "stole" me from him. Then later, when I asked him to clarify, he said it wouldn't cause problems between me and him but between him and her. Which, yeah, I don't care.

--His saying how he spent much more than 30 minutes on my emails, but he's only going to charge me for that amount of time because he thinks of the customer at times.
--(perhaps a less good example) His saying the other day that lately I just keep pushing him to show he cares. Which is part of what's behind his frustration. I said I imagined it was partly related to his being away a bunch, and he said, "I'm sure it is," but then he didn't explore that at all with me.
--Back with the stone thing, when he was superfocused on his reaction to it, not mine

With ex-MC, if I had some reaction to him, he often would tie it into something from my childhood. He'd look at what was going on with it. Until what happened at the very end, he didn't share how he was personally reacting to things (even then he didn't fully share). He had his faults, but he kept things in a therapeutic direction and kept his emotions out of the therapy room. Which I think is related to his psychodynamic training maybe?

I feel like those things are all reasonable things for him to reflect back to you about how he feels within the therapeutic relationship. I see them all as valuable - and perhaps even necessary - feedback. Therapeutic relationships tend to reflect our relationships in everyday life, and in most of these examples here he is letting you know how he feels in response to the way you relate to him. I see that as a valuable part of the therapy rather than a fault on his part.

I also think it's important to focus on the here and now aspect of the therapeutic relationship rather than *just* relate it to the past. Both are important. But to be honest, if he was feeling manipulated, pushed, micromanaged and controlled (which I think are reasonable responses to some of the pushing that you do) it's important for that to be fed back to you.
On the flip side... T cares for you and I think - if you are willing to take that risk - you and him can work through this together and come out stronger on the other side. T is most likely quite capable of feeling those things he shared with you AND still feel care for you, want to work with you, and hold you in positive regard.
I think you will be hurting yourself if you walk away from him now. Here is your chance to work through these patterns of relating to others with someone who cares deeply about you and is on your side... even when working through the hard stuff.
I really hope you don't walk away from this core conflict. You will be doing yourself a great disservice.

[DP_2017]

We've talked quite a bit about this, I still support this break and think it will be very good for you, at least for a bit.

I agree with the other posts about the past stuff.... the thing is.... I think you do understand your past quite a bit, you seem to often have a good reason why things are as they are. You can't change the past, no matter how much you analyze it. You can however, change the present and the future. That's where the you might want to try to shift the focus. I had a pretty crap past as well, many of us here did.... but I feel amazingly hopeful about my future. I can't go back and make my parents raise me better or differently but I can just decide that it's gonna be about me from here on out and focus on what I need going forward. That could help you as well.

I wish you luck with the new T Wed and don't let Dr T make you "cave" again this week. A break isn't permanent, it might really help both of you to take some time apart.

[JaneTennison1]

What would happen if, instead of talking about T and focusing on T, you just went into a session and talked about the crap that is behind it all? You just put s o much energy into fighting and trying to get him to be perfect I wonder what would happen if you focused that energy on your childhood issues or quitting drinking?

I do it too, try and find away to "prove" T is not trustworthy so I don't have to talk about this stuff. How much of it is wrong T and how much is avoidance? If you start with a new T will you just repeat this cycle?

I also wonder of all the things you cite with T talking about his feeling or response, how much was a response to what you have asked or discussed? Yes he is behaving imperfectly but how long do you search for the "perfect" T to avoid the issues you are having?

[unaluna]

jane

Like the poor carpenter blames his tools. My last t wasnt perfect by a long shot; i just decided i could and would work with him.

Isnt that life in general? Our neighbors are nightmares. Our coworkers are idiots. Our family members range from slightly harmful to literally murderous. Its a wonder we survive at all.

[LonesomeTonight]

Quick update that I'm now on an indefinite break from T. Today's session didn't go so well. Including things like his saying that I'm either going to hit up against another T's boundaries like I did with him or else end up in a boundary-blurring relationship like with ex-MC. And him saying that it seems I think he's cruel in what he says to me. I said I've never used that word, that he's projecting on me (turning tables a bit there...because he also said today that I was projecting and it bothered him). He just seemed very defensive. And I really don't see a way forward right now (told him that). Told him to take good care of his fish. I'm to contact him if I want to come back or just to come in to discuss things further. Gave back the stone, too, which was a bit difficult (he said I could just put it on table beside me). His parting words were "Good luck" and "Be well." Perhaps more later.

Please, I request in your responses to this post to try to be kind to me and not agree with him that I'm doomed in therapy (even if that's what you think). I think there has to be a middle ground, with a T who is willing to express caring while also holding good boundaries. I've read about such T's on here, so it's not just a myth! I feel T and ex-MC are sort of polar opposites in that, and there's a huge middle ground in between.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

I'm so sorry LT. You've got every right to look for someone else who might suit you better. Yes there's a fine line between not wanting to repeat the same pattern with every t you meet but you also have the right to seek someone who is perhaps more forthcoming with empathy, if you need that. If you are repeating a pattern then I will think that will become obvious in time but you seem really aware and sure about what you're doing and I think that says a lot in itself. There's nothing wrong with looking around and it sounds like this ts door is always open if you feel you want to return any point.

[LostOnTheTrail]

I'm sorry, LT...it all sounds very hard.

[SlumberKitty]

HUGS LT. I'm so sorry your session didn't go well and that you are on an indefinte break from T. I do know that there are good therapists out there, that express caring and have good boundaries. I know because my former T was one. They are hard to find I think. But it can be well worth it if you do find one. You can always PM me if you want to talk. HUGS Kit

[Lemoncake]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Please, I request in your responses to this post to try to be kind to me and not agree with him that I'm doomed in therapy (even if that's what you think). I think there has to be a middle ground, with a T who is willing to express caring while also holding good boundaries. I've read about such T's on here, so it's not just a myth! I feel T and ex-MC are sort of polar opposites in that, and there's a huge middle ground in between.

Sending you huge hugs LT. That does sound like a very painful session.

I don't think your doomed in therapy.

[comrademoomoo]

I hope you establish a therapeutic relationship with someone who welcomes your projections because they can be such a valuable part of the work.

[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks for all the support. It would be nice to have someone be willing to work with the projections, and I basically said that to T today. He...I don't know, he just didn't seem open to it. Well, we very nearly made it to 2 years (like a week or two short).

[SlumberKitty]

Hugs LT......

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Hugs, LT, hope you can find somebody who works better for you.

[ScarletPimpernel]

LT -
I don't think you're doomed in therapy. And I do think there's a middle ground. T is my middle ground. To be completely honest, L is my addiction because of all the positive regard. But both are caring and both have good boundaries.

I have never liled this T. A therapeutic relationship shouldn't cause you more harm than good. And he is being defensive and reflecting onto you, least imo.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

LT -
I don't think you're doomed in therapy. And I do think there's a middle ground. T is my middle ground. To be completely honest, L is my addiction because of all the positive regard. But both are caring and both have good boundaries.

I have never liled this T. A therapeutic relationship shouldn't cause you more harm than good. And he is being defensive and reflecting onto you, least imo.

Thanks, Scarlet. That's something I said to him today, about how I'd often been feeling worse after sessions. Like, not sessions talking about, say, trauma,where maybe it makes sense to feel worse. But sessions talking about the therapeutic relationship. I kept trying to convince myself that this T was good for me, that he was what I really needed. But I really just don't think he's a good fit...