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Old 02-01-2019, 03:36 PM #21
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OK, posting this. I respectfully ask that no one say that I should just stop emailing my T. And that no one say he's an awful T and I should leave him because of some aspects of his email policy. Which he clarified more in yesterday's session (I'll post that in a bit) and isn't as bad as it will seem here. Other comments fine.

T Wednesday (a day early because of my birthday Thursday, which...well...). Went back and sat down. I said I felt bad about emailing him Monday, that I did appreciate his responses. But I knew I should have just sat with it. But with Tuesday being an anniversary that I was struggling with, decided to go ahead and email. He said it was fine. I started crying and said I knew I'd been contacting him more lately (like once a week the past 3-4 weeks), and I felt bad about that. How I wanted him to know I really was trying, that I was generally trying other coping mechanisms first. T said he knew that and appreciated it.

I said I just worried I was contacting him too much, and that I was trying to work on it, how it's just a rough month for me. T said he thinks of emails as part of his job. And as he said, he'd let me know if it became an issue for him. Me: "So it's not too much right now then?" T thought for a second. T: "I'd say you're about at a yellow right now." I started crying. T: "That's not bad, it just means you're not at green." Me: "But I want to be at green..." T: "But you'd still have orange and red to go before I'd charge you." Me: "There's an orange, too? Oh good."

Note that he'd said before that if I got to a certain level, he'd charge for short ones, which he doesn't currently charge for. Me: "So, once I hit the red level, is there a way to get out of it? Or would you just charge me for all emails for the rest of the time I'm seeing you?" T: "Yes, just take a break from sending emails for a while." Me: "OK." T: "And I want to clarify, the yellow just refers to whether you'd be charged for the emails. It's not about frustration or annoyance, because I'm not frustrated or annoyed by them." Me: "OK, thanks."

I said it wasn't just about the emails, that it was how I wanted to be "green" with him and with everyone in my life at all times. Like the perfectionist part of me, the part that wants/needs everyone to like me. And I said I knew that wasn't realistic. T agreed. T: "I'm sure I've been orange or even red with you before." Me: "Yeah, there have definitely been a few red times..."

T was saying if I'm just trying to be what people want from me, that I'm not really being me. How it's like I'm trying to be all these different people. And how some people say that's like being a chameleon, changing who you are. But it's not a good analogy, because a chameleon remains a lizard, just changes a bit to match its surroundings. It doesn't turn into an opossum. How he feels he's like that, he might shift how he interacts from client to client, might interact differently with a colleague or friend, but he's still being himself in all of those cases. Like not pretending to be someone else. That he hopes I could become more like that as well. I said I did, too.

We talked some about how I'd handled the anniversary (of being unfaithful to H), and I said I'd drank maybe a bit more than I should have, but didn't go too overboard and I didn't do anything else destructive. And I talked to a friend online a bit. He said it sounds like I did really well. And how he wondered if that would have made me want to contact ex-MC. I didn't say this at the time, but I realized later how that hadn't even occurred to me, to contact him. Is it possible I've finally moved on? At least from viewing him as a support person? I said (in session) that I think it also helped knowing I'd see T the next day, that I could get my thoughts out then. T said that's something to think about for future stressful events.

I forget what we talked about next. But with maybe 5 minutes left, T said, "Can I ask you something?" Me: "Uh, OK." T: "Do you feel that you put more weight on things I tell you, opinions I have, as compared with other people in your life? Because I get that sense sometimes. Not just me, but therapists in general." Me: "I need to think about that for a minute." I thought. Me: "It isn't just you or other therapists. I know you don't like being thought of in this way, but it's that you're an authority figure to me. I'm that way with you, other therapists, bosses, teachers, advisors, well, my parents." T: "Hm, OK." Me: "Like I'd react more strongly to something that an authority figure would tell me or an opinion they had as compared to, say, a friend, because I think of a friend as more of an equal." T: "I see." Me: "I need to think about it more. I mean, not right now, because I know we have to stop. But before next session." T: "OK."

Confirmed Monday and Thursday. Went over to pay. T: "Are you feeling better now?" I thought me meant about session, but he meant did I still think I was sick, like Monday. I said I thought I was OK. He held out his hand and we shook hands, as he said, I think "Enjoy" (I never really understand that one...enjoy what?) and "Good luck out there." Me: "Thanks, you too."

I went someplace to do some work (school was closed) and managed to sort of push away my feelings for a bit. But I just kept thinking about the "yellow" thing. Later that evening, I kept starting to type an email to T to clarify something with it, then worried it would put me into orange, so I texted him and just asked if he had any openings Thursday or Friday (he uses text for scheduling, but just wants clients to keep it very straightforward, like not explaining why I want a session, so all I said was literally "Do you have any openings tomorrow or Friday?"). He offered me two options, I took one, he wrote back to say "OK I have you on my schedule. Hope you have a peaceful evening." Which felt nice.
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:40 PM #22
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Default Re: LT's thread

To be honest about it, I had a hard time tracking the last round of responses to your posts and what was "wrong" about them. I have read your writeups eagerly and with interest but have stopped responding because I didn't feel my comments were helpful to you, or necessarily welcomed. This is my issue to deal with, not yours.

I do think that being able to accept what others offer you, even if it isn't delivered via the precise script that you want, is a skill that can be valuable in developing deeper social connections. Whether it is a useful skill to you, I don't know. I think in general most of us could make a greater effort to appreciate feedback and be less defensive about it, myself included.
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:48 PM #23
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awww, that sounds like a great exchange LT. At first I wanted to tease about how awful this or that or whatever, hoping you'd catch I was teasing ... coming from me. Then I read the post. I thought this exchange was really good. I like your T's take on emails. I haven't read all your IST posts so I don't know the whole story. I think he's been clear/consistent on the boundary and I think that is more important than what they are. I get the huge desire to be green. Good job opening yourself up to the feedback from him. It can be hard to get that reality check when we fear the answer is the negative thing we perceive it to be.

Take care.
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:51 PM #24
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Default Re: LT's thread

As for the emails, the color thing is super confusing. I'd even be like what?!! You know your limits and what you gotta do to stay yellow, so that's all on you on how much you do.

The other thing I did wanna say about is...and remember this isn't a judgement, it's an observation.... but I don't know your whole EXMC thing but I think you said you loved him and he was uncomfortable and you kinda had a big thing and it ended? I'm thinking the reason you see him and this T and any T as a authority figure (which they really aren't... you are much more equal than you realize) is because I think, even with ex MC you probably think of him in a sense as a parent.... rather than a T. So when he got upset or rejected the ILY, you felt that he was rejecting (omg my computer kept typing erecting, I'm laughing) you as a person and your love... it felt like your parents rejecting you and your love. I'm not sure how you can move past the authority figure idea with Therapy, but I would maybe ask T to help you with that, I would imagine you would feel so differently without that mindset.

I also think its interesting he asked you that because it does seem that his opinion matters most. Not that it's good or bad etc.... I mean, we all value our T's options (well most of them) but I feel like there are other people like your H who's options should matter more than T's...I know it's different but again, if you can find the freedom to see him as not an authority figure... you will feel so much relief.

I am not judging and I know I'm terrible at wording but I feel like the perfectionist is because you want so badly to please your parents and you assume all these certain people, aside from friends, are like your parents. It's much better to just be you. If they can't accept the flaws you have, hell with them. I feel sad for you when I read stuff like this because I can't imagine how hard it must be to live constantly trying to please everyone and never really giving yourself a break. Just being ok with being you. I think that's what your T is trying to help you with. Hopefully he can. I really want to see you happy.
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:52 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne2.0 View Post
To be honest about it, I had a hard time tracking the last round of responses to your posts and what was "wrong" about them. I have read your writeups eagerly and with interest but have stopped responding because I didn't feel my comments were helpful to you, or necessarily welcomed. This is my issue to deal with, not yours.

I do think that being able to accept what others offer you, even if it isn't delivered via the precise script that you want, is a skill that can be valuable in developing deeper social connections. Whether it is a useful skill to you, I don't know. I think in general most of us could make a greater effort to appreciate feedback and be less defensive about it, myself included.

Thanks, Anne--I think it was partly that people started kind of debating with each other about my post and that became a lot to deal with. Or someone was saying I just shouldn't email. Which is why I was afraid to post about this session, because I didn't want a bunch of people being like "I told you so!" about the emails. Because the thing is, it is something he allows (even if it hit the point he'd charge me for them, it's still allowed), it's something I tend to find helpful. So for multiple people to post "don't email him," that's not something I find helpful. Or if someone says "You should find a different T." Because I get a lot out of working with him.

To clarify, I'm not referring to your posts, Anne. You've made a few posts that have really made me think. And others have done so as well. It's just that I don't like if someone is saying the way I handle the therapeutic relationship is wrong or I'm too needy or my T is a jerk or something. That's the stuff I don't find to be helpful. If it's like "Hm, how does this connect to other people in your life," for example, like am I reenacting something? Stuff like that can really help.
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:58 PM #26
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I definitely can relate to the idea of T being an authority figure. The longer I saw my former T the more I saw her as an authority figure. Maybe, in my case, it was because my T seemed to have her life together and stuff like that and I trusted her to know what she was talking about. After all, she was the expert. But I forget that I'm the expert on me. I think it sounds like a really good session and some good connections made. And good for you asking for another session. It's good to ask for what we need. HUGS Kit
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Old 02-01-2019, 04:00 PM #27
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LT

Sadly there is some rude people on here. Just gotta learn to not care what everyone thinks. If you find things helpful, fine. Just ask yourself now and then, if it's still gonna be helpful in the long run, meaning... you don't want a repeat of ex MC and I think alot of people here are trying to be protective of you and help you avoid then, hence the advice/comments. I know that's where my views come from. I see patterns and I start to worry, because I don't want you going through that hell again, especially now that I've experienced something similar. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. So not every "harsh" comment is mean or judging, it can come from a place of care/concern
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Old 02-01-2019, 07:41 PM #28
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Extra T session yesterday. Went back and sat down. T (in a concerned voice): "Are you OK?" Me: "I don't know..." T: "Were you thinking about more stuff with H and the anniversary last night or something like that?" Me: "No, I figured you'd suspect why I wanted to meet again." T: "No." Me: "It was something from yesterday's session." T: "Why don't you talk me through what you're feeling?"

Me (starting to cry): "It's the yellow email thing." T: "Oh." Me: "I thought I was OK with it yesterday. I kept telling myself 'It's OK, he said it's OK, it's only yellow.' But I just kept thinking about it. And then I started to write you an email to clarify something about it, then I just kept thinking, 'This is going to push me to orange. I don't want to go to orange.'" T (compassionately): "Wow, LT." Me: "Because then if I get to orange, I'm only one step away from red, and..." T said something about how my brain goes down a negative path quickly.

Me: "It's like...I don't know, I feel like a kid who's been bad. Like I'm too needy. It's OK to have a certain level of need, but then...if I go beyond that...it's not OK." T: "But it is OK to email. It just could eventually involve charging you." Me: "I can understand that on the adult level, like intellectually." T: "But the intellectual part doesn't control our feelings." Me: "Yeah.

Me: "I feel like...this is going to sound...pathetic or something. But it's felt lately like you've been more...I don't know, like caring or compassionate with me. Like with some of your email responses. But now the talk about charging me, it's making that all sort of confused in my head. Like I had been picturing you typing a reply while feeling caring, and now it's like I'm imagining you sitting there thinking, "OK, this reply is moving you into yellow now..." T: "That's not what I'm thinking. I don't keep some sort of track of where clients are in emailing." Me: "OK, I think I just had this image of a chart, where most all the clients are in green and then I'm there in yellow." T: "No, and honestly yesterday was the first time I even referred to it as color coded. It just seemed easy to compare it to the threat level thing." (referencing the Bush post-9/11 terrorist threat level). Me: "Yeah, and that probably wasn't the best comparison to make..." T: "Good point! It just popped into my head."

Me: "I think part of it too is that it feels like the email boundary is kind of unilateral and subjective." T: "Aren't boundaries unilateral by nature?" Me: "I guess. It's more the subjective part, where there's no clear way for me to know what is too much. Like I've sent about one email a week for the past 4 weeks. I guess that's too much?" T: "Well, it's sort of moving in that direction, but still OK, which is why I said yellow." Me: "But it's hard for me to know what's OK. I mean, like if you said, 'you can send me 500 words a week.' OK, that's actually quite a lot. More like, say, I don't know, 200 words, 150 words?" T: "What do you think would be fair?" Me: "I don't know." T: "I haven't really discussed this policy in such detail before." Me: "I think I just like to know what the limits are."

T: "Well, I think of email as part of my job. I'm essentially on call, like 18 hours a day, 7 days a week." Me: "So, like, some of it is sort of built into the session fee?" T: "Yes, in a sense. Because I choose to allow email and don't charge when it takes less than 15 minutes." Me: "Well...I mean, I see you twice a week. So, I'm paying you twice what a weekly client would pay. So...if email is built in...shouldn't that mean I get a bit more email time?" T: "Hmm...that's an interesting point. I hadn't considered that."

I talked about my fears of getting to the red level again. How it didn't seem fair to me that he'd then charge me for all emails going forward. T: "What do you mean?" Me: "I thought you said once a client moved past a threshold, they'd get charged for any emails going forward, even short ones. And it doesn't seem fair if you'd charge me $45 for a couple sentences." T: "No. I guess I wasn't clear. Remember how the other week we used the metaphor of pouring water in the sink and it overflowing?" Me: "Yeah." T: "It's like that. Say you sent me, I don't know, 5 emails in 1 week, and together they took me a certain amount of time, and the sink would be overflowing. I'd charge you for those, the sink would be drained, and you'd be back to green again." Me: "I would? I thought you'd just keep charging me from then on out." T: "No, that wouldn't be fair." Me: "Yeah, that's what I thought, too...OK I feel better knowing that."

Me: "Because I kept thinking, when I was in crisis 3 years ago, about how much support I got from ex-MC and T over like a 4-day period. And if that had been you, then after that you'd have been like, 'Well, OK, here's a bill for the email and I'm now going to charge you from here on out.' When I was still feeling really awful." T: "No." Me: "I guess I also keep thinking, if I'd only been seeing you during that time, you couldn't have given me that support. Because you don't do phone calls unless a client is out of town. So I couldn't have talked to you on a Saturday. Maybe you could have had me in for a session if you were there that Sunday, but I'd have had to lie to H to say why I was going." T: "I could do phone calls in that situation. I prefer to see people in person, but in that case, I could have done a call. I mean, I'd have charged you for that time." Me: "No, I understand that. I just thought I wouldn't have been able to get support from you, OK."

We talked about why he charged for longer or more frequent emails. He said it's his way of avoiding resenting clients for taking up his time. Because if he's getting paid for his time, then he's not going to be resentful. How it actually surprises him that most T's don't charge for outside contact at all. I said how part of why it's hard for me is that I'm used to it always being free from ex-T and ex-MC. But then they often didn't reply or would take a few days. Me: "And I appreciate that you always reply." T: "And I try to always do so within 24 hours."

I said I thought all of this was tied into the authority figure thing we discussed yesterday. Me: "How do I stop putting you in the role of an authority figure? Because you say I have all the power, in that I can leave, but I feel you have a lot of power, too, like the email stuff, you can just decide when to charge me." T (in another poor choice of metaphors): "You have the nuclear option in being able to just leave. But I guess I have some smaller guns, too." Me: "Yeah, and technically you could terminate me, too." T: "Not ethically." Me: "Yeah, but you hear about it happening all the time. Or T's taking something away, like email. Or someone on the forum whose T still lets her email but he won't respond." T: "That doesn't seem right to me. I feel that if I offer something in the beginning, like replying to emails, then I should continue to do that." Me: "I appreciate that. Or if it was a case where you didn't think email was helpful to me, we'd discuss it and come up with a solution together instead of you deciding on it." T: "Yes."

Somewhere earlier in the session, I'd mentioned it being my birthday, and T immediately said, "Right, happy birthday!" Me: "Thanks, but I thought therapists had some rule against saying that." T: "I don't." Me: "OK, just ex-T never did until the last year I was seeing her, even though I'd be like 'on my birthday tomorrow, I'm doing x. Ex-MC said it a few times, which meant something." T: "I don't think there's a rule."

Something about PC came up and some of the feedback I'd gotten on here, both about myself and about him. T: "I get the sense many people on there think I'm an @$$hole." Me: "Yeah, some do seem to have that impression. And I suppose you do have your moments...You do have some fans though!" T said he's said before how there's the spectrum of T's with the more warm, fuzzy ones on one side, and then the more detached, sort of behaviorists on the other side. And he's closer to the latter side, so he wonders if that's why some people react that way. He said how there are so many different ways to do therapy and clients want different things from their T's, and much of it is just about finding the right match. T: "I mean, I can do warm and fuzzy stuff when I have to...OK that came out kind of wrong, I don't mind doing that." Me: "You do have the occasional warm or fuzzy moment."

We had a couple minutes left. T asked if I wanted to do a wrapup up the conversation. I said how it helped hearing his explanation of the email and having a better understanding of his policy. T: "I think this today was an important conversation for us to have." Me: "Yeah, I think so, too."

Confirmed Monday and Thursday. Joked around a bit about my dinner plans for that evening. Paid, shook hands as he said "Happy Birthday! Enjoy!" (ok, there "enjoy" made sense!) Me: "Thanks!" T: "See you Monday." Me: "See you then." Felt good about the session, glad we'd discussed things more and he'd clarified. I guess I could have gotten the same basic information from an email, but it's different in person.
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Old 02-01-2019, 08:01 PM #29
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LT

I really HOPE you remember all this. I know it's hard but try not to panic about things with him so much. He's been very patient with you and he's not the kind of T to not say something if it's bothering him.

It was interesting to me that he said he hadn't had a talk about boundaries like that before, my T said the exact same when I used to ask about texting boundaries.

I am surprised he considered himself always on call. Kinda sad, it comes off as work is more important than family, or that he can't separate his personal and professional life. I don't know anyone who would be on call for their job that much

Why would you think there is a rule about happy birthday wishes? I've never heard such a thing. Mine said it to me. Many others have talked about it here. Not any different than saying Merry Christmas. I'm glad you asked him how to help you stop seeing him as an authority figure, working on changing that mindset will really help you. I think you will feel such a sense of relief.
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Old 02-01-2019, 08:07 PM #30
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"Something about PC came up and some of the feedback I'd gotten on here, both about myself and about him. T: "I get the sense many people on there think I'm an @$$hole." Me: "Yeah, some do seem to have that impression. And I suppose you do have your moments...You do have some fans though!" T said he's said before how there's the spectrum of T's with the more warm, fuzzy ones on one side, and then the more detached, sort of behaviorists on the other side."

I think he sounds like an asshole, but not because he is not warm and fuzzy nor is it because he is more detached. I am not saying you shouldn't hire him if he works for you for some reason. I am saying I would never had hired a therapist who acts the way you describe him.
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