[DP_2017]

I didn't mean it in a rude or pushy way. I was just replying on my phone so It was harder to type but yes I know you are working on it, hence his comments about all relationships end, which I'm glad he brought up and discussed with you.

I've been there, but not in the same sense, as an avoidant, I usually don't care when people leave. I expect it and I'm eh when it happens... HOWEVER.... here's a story.... and I don't mean to compare animals to people but to me, my dogs ARE more important to me than people so I can understand

What brought me to therapy to begin with, was intense anxiety over my dogs dying. It was literally ruining my life. I couldn't do basic tasks anymore, any sneeze or cough or weird look etc would terrify me to believe that they were dying. It got to a point where I knew I needed help.

So.... somehow along the way, T became just what I needed for dealing with this. When my dog got cancer, I didn't cry. I wasn't angry. I was just ok. I didn't text him right away, but we talked about it at my next session. Somehow just the peace of knowing he was there and knowing he wasn't judging and he didn't find it odd that I was like this with my dog, was comforting. One thing he said to me, I never forget and it's kind what I trying to pass along to you, in a terribly worded way.... but he said "You can spend all this time worrying about the end that you know will someday come OR you can spend that time, enjoying the time you are given with them. Only one of those options creates good memories." He was right.

We prepared for the death, even though he died almost 6 months after the diagnosis, in various ways. One of them was him asking me all sorts of stories and having me share those stories with other people. Keeping the memory alive, even while he was still there. When he eventually passed, I didn't cry. I didn't talk about ending my life. Although I always thought I would, I calmly texted him "He passed away, We can talk tomorrow" and just letting him know that bit of info was helpful. Having him there through it was a gift in itself but here I am with a dog who is almost 16. I know he isn't gonna be here tons of time longer but I don't get anxious about it anymore. I do my best to live every moment of every day I have with him, the best I can

With T, even though it was short notice....I did my best to keep the last couple sessions about the here and now or the future. I could have spent them all crying and being angry and one of them I did, but I thought about, is this really the memories I want to have with him looking back? So we did sessions like they were normal. Like nothing was different. I am glad I made that choice, because even though the loss hurts like hell, it's some comfort to know, we had a good final session. We laughed, and played a game etc

I realize things take time, of course they do, especially when they are that way for years and years. I was not doubting that and you are making small strides and those are all to be proud of.... I was just again, terribly, but trying to encourage the wisdom of here and now living the best you can. Something to strive for anyway.

I also get the anxiety of annoying him etc but I doubt that's the case. He hasn't been annoyed by any of the contact thus far. It's likely something very minor to him... and he isn't thinking you are freaking out this much over it. Hopefully no matter what topics come up, you have a good session.... and keep going, one day at a time.

[zoiecat]

I think this thread has hit on a central issue for you. I think it is great that you are finally voicing your desire to change and go all in to do what it takes.

From an outside view of someone who sees a very goal, progress oriented T, it does seem like most of your sessions are centered on reacting to your feelings when you do not receive the response you were looking for from T. The goal of most of your extra sessions appear to be focused on you attempting to want to change or convince T to shift to your way of thinking and to agree with you to provide acceptance and reassurance that your way is right. He tends to give you what you want and all is good again until the next time.

While this is satisfying for the moment, it does not last long and is a continuous source of distress for you. Real relationships and life in general does not wirk that way. We can't always get what we want or manipulate people to give us the responses we are looking for. Everyone has autonomy and the right to their own thoughts and opinions. Just because they don't agree with us does not mean the relationship will end or be permanently damaged.

I agree with other responses that this would be a great place to start to dig in and do the work of T. This does not mean simply talking about the therapeutic relationship but to actually work on you and ways to address and change your cognitive beliefs. CBT would be helpful here and I'm sure your T has many other skills to help you when you are ready.

There is also a DBT skill called DEAR MAN to help you address asking for what you want in a relationship that would work well in dealing with H issues.

You stated yesterday that you were tired of feeling the way you have been and it is hard for me to watch you struggle for so long. I wish you the best in this journey. The decision to change and put in the work is the first step toward real progress. It sounds like you may be ready to take that step. While it is never easy, it does sometimes require stepping back and letting T take the wheel for a bit in order to steer sessions in the proactive versus reactive direction.

Good luck LT.

[unaluna]

My t used to look at me kind of shocked and apprehensively and say, "I'm not going to clean your house for you!" I would be like, i didnt even think i was asking him that, where was that coming from? But i didnt say that - i kinda wish i had.

Anyway, this now sounds to me similar to what your t is saying to you. They cant do it for us. Half of us lives in our addictions, but the other half doesnt get to live at all. We CANT go all in - its one half lives and the other dies. We cant have our cake and eat it too, as was said in another t thread.

[NP_Complete]

I think it's impressive how you're so open to putting yourself out there and being vulnerable, especially since you have anxiety. I wish I could be as vulnerable as you in my therapy. I hope your session today goes well.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I don't characterize this pretty complex issue as that you have to learn to deal with not getting the reactions you want. I think that's pretty simple and brings to mind a toddler in the grocery store learning that a tantrum for a chocolate bar is not going to happen. I do think that's a piece of it, and also learning not to punish people for not giving you the reactions you want, or responding otherwise in anger.

I think the deeper issue is understanding the expectations you have and why you have them, what they mean for you, and how your expectations shape your communication and the nature of your relationships. I think it's tied to your focus on your T or the other person in the relationship, maybe keeps you stuck in this focus, and turned away from what is in your heart and mind. I don't mean to knock you over the head with this, just saying what it seems like from this side of the computer screen.

I think there are some good observations here, and I also think this kind of approach comes from a very logical, adult, left brain kind of mindset. I have my own pattern of attaching to certain kinds of people, and it's so clearly rooted in childhood stuff that it might as well light up in giant neon letters every time it happens (which is embarrassingly often!).

That drive to keep trying to get your needs met can't be thought away with logic. My T would definitely have responded to the YouTube link email, and if she had forgotten, we could talk in depth about why I was upset about it, without her telling me that I was being unreasonable or that other people in my life wouldn't appreciate me being upset (because I wouldn't be upset with other people in that circumstance!). We just had a long talk today about how upset I was that she wasn't there for me in session while she was out sick, even though we did talk on the phone. There was no shaming for the child-like feelings, and there was no exasperated sense from her that I want things she can't provide. I ask for things, she provides what she can within her own boundaries/limits, and we can process any discrepancies together without her telling me that my feelings are wrong.

I think the key for me is getting the needs met in a really consistent way while also using my adult intellect to process how unsettling it is for the child-like needs to actually get met. Then I can fully understand the childhood deprivation and my worthiness (that I should have gotten things I didn't) in order to grieve and make sense of things from an emotional standpoint. Otherwise I'm just trying yet again to wallpaper over the gaping emptiness. The real trick is in the integration of the feelings from the past with the thoughts of today.

Disclaimer: I fully recognize that this approach isn't for everybody, but it seems to me to finally be a path toward deep, meaningful change now that I am willing to put in a ton of work and have a really dedicated T. I'll update in about three years if this doesn't actually work, though.

[LonesomeTonight]

Good session where we discussed a lot of this today. More later.

[Waterloo12345]

"I'll update in about three years if this doesn't actually work, though."

Lol!

[LonesomeTonight]

And Una, *of course* T used the phrase “all in” at one point because I’d used it before. I managed to not start laughing or anything.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

And Una, *of course* T used the phrase “all in” at one point because I’d used it before. I managed to not start laughing or anything.

[ElectricManatee]

I'm wondering if maybe this is all coming up like this because it means you're ready to go back to marriage counseling. That's a place where I think everybody would agree that you can focus on the relationship to your heart's content. I haven't done marriage counseling, but my sense from the way ex-MC made a bit of a mess of things is that you haven't really done marriage counseling yet either. (I hope that doesn't sound harsh.)

Somewhat relatedly, I have been reading Getting the Love You Want: A Guide For Couples, which is written by the guy who came up with Imago Relationship Therapy. It is very psychodynamic in places (a little too far at times, in my view), but you might like it because you seem interested in how childhood stuff rears its head in our adult relationships. I am enjoying the ideas and trying to spot ways that my past interacts with the dynamics in my marriage.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I'm wondering if maybe this is all coming up like this because it means you're ready to go back to marriage counseling. That's a place where I think everybody would agree that you can focus on the relationship to your heart's content. I haven't done marriage counseling, but my sense from the way ex-MC made a bit of a mess of things is that you haven't really done marriage counseling yet either. (I hope that doesn't sound harsh.)

Somewhat relatedly, I have been reading Getting the Love You Want: A Guide For Couples, which is written by the guy who came up with Imago Relationship Therapy. It is very psychodynamic in places (a little too far at times, in my view), but you might like it because you seem interested in how childhood stuff rears its head in our adult relationships. I am enjoying the ideas and trying to spot ways that my past interacts with the dynamics in my marriage.

Thanks, EM--it's possible re: marriage counseling. And I wonder sometimes if we did true marriage counseling either. Especially hearing ex-T and current T talk about the ways they do marriage counseling (current T lists some of his training in it on his website). Which seems very different from ex-MC. It seemed like ex-MC was trying to do some weird form of psychodynamic marriage counseling. And much of it ended up centering on me because I was much more open about my self and past than H. And then of course the transference stuff...but even if that hadn't happened, I'm not sure how much progress we would have made.

However, I wonder at times if it was partly due to H not being as willing to open up. It took going for a few months, stopping, then returning and I think telling ex-MC to push us more (maybe ex-T told him, at my request?) until H came up with any bigger complaint about me than "she leaves tissues on the couch." And he never shared much about his past or childhood. And ex-MC never really delved much into his anger issues, acting like I was the one who needed to deal with it--OK, that was clearly a failing of ex-MC. Please note--this is not all about my trying to excuse ex-MC--I think I'm just wondering how effective marriage counseling with anyone will be if my H doesn't want to be as open as I am. I do wonder what it would have been like if we'd seen current T as a marriage counselor (obviously not an option now)--because he can be so blunt and can ask very direct questions, I'm curious as to how H would have interacted with him. If he'd have shared more or just shut down more.

Funny you mention the Getting the Love You Want--T had recommended that to me a while back, so I own it--maybe I should dig it out again. He actually used one of the Imago exercises with me--where I respond to all these questions about my childhood, then he sort of filled it in, Mad Libs style, to show what I was looking for in a partner. Or something like that. In marriage counseling, both people would do it, then discuss the answers. But it was helpful discussing my answers with T, as it gave me some insight into myself. Ex-MC NEVER did any sort of exercise like that. The few times he gave homework, it was like "Have a fight" (literally). Or once when he had me deal with anxiety by warning H, then hitting him (gently) in the arm (seriously), like as a way to get my anxiety out and kind of joke about it.

[ElectricManatee]

I can totally see where your H would kind of just sit back and let you talk if that was the path of least resistance. It might be easier (or at least more necessary!) for your H to open up if there wasn't the LT/MC dynamic taking up so much space. I really, truly don't think MC knew what he was doing, which might have even made things worse. With the right couples counselor, the fact that your H is slow to open up could be useful data in itself.

I get a tiny flavor of how my T approaches relationship issues when we talk about my marriage and she gives me suggestions about how to handle certain issues. It's very different from the individual work we usually do. I also learned a few really interesting things about the assumptions my wife makes when I brought her to an individual session once. And she and I talk all the time at home. So I bet there are all kinds of things you could learn about your H in the right setting. And I have to think a stronger marriage would make it easier for you to make the changes you want to make in yourself too.

Maybe you can see if Dr. T could provide a referral to somebody who has a style similar to his? I agree that he seems like he could be really good with marriage counseling and working on relationship skills, so maybe he knows some like-minded professionals in your area.

[DP_2017]

Maybe your H is like me and more avoidant in nature, which would mean, he may never really open up like you. It's so difficult for people like me. Even with T, who I really trusted more than anyone, I barely spoke about childhood, and it wasn't any reason other than not wanting to go down that path. So I can understand him if he is avoidant

Another thing is, ask him if he is open to it and he can pick whomever. Maybe a woman would be better for him as far as feeling more open to doing it. I would suggest telling him how important trying again is to you and asking if he is willing and how you can let him choose or something.

I like EM idea as well as asking T for a referral. MC would really help you I think though if H can agree.

[LonesomeTonight]

T Monday. Went back and sat down--I saw he was still using the back support thing and confirmed that his back was still bothering him, said I was sorry about that. T thanked me. T: "I'm sorry about your migraine Friday." I thanked him. (It had kept me from going to my daughter's IEP meeting in person, but I participated on the phone. I'd become very distressed about not being able to go in person and had emailed him about it Friday--he replied Saturday morning.)

Discussed some details of how the IEP meeting went (D is on autism spectrum--the IEP sets up accommodations for her in school, and she has to do a new one annually), including her eligibility for a social-skills program over the summer. Then I mentioned my email to T. I said I saw Saturday morning that he'd replied, and I was afraid to read it--and I wondered what was going on with that. I realized I was ashamed of some of what I'd said in the email to him. And I was afraid he'd react in a certain way. But then I realized there's no way he'd say some of those things to me, that they were the things I was saying to myself. I said I'd written about it in Dear T--could I read him what I wrote there? He said sure.

So I pulled out the paper from my purse, plus my glasses. T glanced in my purse: "Are those tissues?" Me: "Yes." T: "Used or unused?" Me: "Mainly unused. Along with glasses, sunglasses, wallet, lipstick, hand sanitizer. I know I need to clean it out." T: "Well, it all seems necessary except the tissues." Me: "Uh, OK.' (I wanted to be like, "You're married, don't you know better than to talk about what's in a woman's purse?")

I then read the following, while crying: "Dear T, Why am I afraid to look at your email reply? I'm such a weirdo... I think maybe I'm ashamed of seeming so needy and sad. Or that I'm afraid you'll be like, "FFS, [which I defined, in case he didn't know the acronym] LT, get it together, it was a migraine! You had to do her IEP meeting by phone, whatever, get over it! Why would that make you feel so awful? I thought you were doing better. How can you go off the rails so easily? What is the matter with you? Maybe you're unfixable." That's clearly the message I'm saying to myself in my head. I know you'd never say that in an email to me. I suppose that's something to discuss Monday...Those messages are coming from somewhere. Along with the messages making me feel horribly guilty for missing the meeting in person (well, I know those are coming from my mom...)"

I said I knew he wouldn't say those things to me in real life, and if he did, I'd probably leave. T: "I imagine some of the people on the forum think I'd say them." Me: "True! I mean, I guess you'd say the part about 'You had the meeting by phone, get over it,' but not in those exact words." T: "Yes, I said something like that in the email." Me: "Yes, and what you said was fine. The email was helpful. And I think I realized something this morning while, this may be TMI, I was showering. I seem to have a lot of good thoughts while showering." T: "Do you know why that is?" He proceeded to explain how showering can be rather meditative and lets our mind focus on other things. I said it made sense, plus the sound blocks out other noises.

I said how driving could be that way for me, too, though I think that in part is also listening to music. T agreed, saying how a different part of the brain works on the actual driving stuff, so the other part is free to think. T: "People make fun of me for this, but I can drive for 5 hours without listening to anything, just with my thoughts." Me: "You mean music? I know you're not that into that. Or do you mean not even a podcast or something?" T: "Nothing at all, just driving." Me: "Well, we wouldn't make very good riding partners then, because I need to have music in the background." T: "Well, it doesn't work if someone else is in the car anyway. They'd be a distraction." Me: "Oh, it's just if you're driving alone then?" T: "Yes."

I said I wanted to share the thought I'd had in the shower. That I was thinking about how if T had said those things to me in the email, that it might have made me want to terminate. And even more extreme (huge potential trigger, read with caution):

Possible trigger:

Me: "If you or H or a friend had said to me, 'You don't deserve to be alive' or 'I want to cut your skin with a knife,' that would be horribly emotional abusive. Or if you actually did that last one, it would be assault. Yet I say those things to myself. So it's almost like I'm basically emotionally abusing myself. Why is that OK?" T: "I would say that you are emotionally abusing yourself." Me: "Yeah..."

But we didn't go much further with that, even though I felt like it was this big revelation. Maybe I should have pushed to go further, I don't know... And I'm debating bringing it up more today.

We ended up talking a bit about CBT and sort of using the wise mind (though i think that's more of a DBT thing?) T talked about how my mind might jump to certain things, like when I had the migraine and felt awful about not being able to go to the IEP meeting in person. How that's one part of my brain reacting to it. But this exercise involves taking a part of the brain that's wise, kind, and honest. He said all those components are important. Like the kind part is not being really critical or negative. There's an exercise where I write what happened and what I was feeling, then write how the more wise mind could have responded. He suggested I just look for CBT worksheets online. We talked a bit more about that.

There was a weird moment in there where it was like he was sort of smoothing/adjusting his (button-down) shirt, then it was like he saw me observing that and suddenly seemed self-conscious, like putting his hands over his stomach almost? (I have a tendency to watch people's hands without realizing what I'm doing.)

I mentioned the mindfulness, and he said he'd want more time to work on that. I said we could just do that next time, unless something else came up. T: "We can just work on it whenever it seems like a good time, it doesn't matter." Me: "OK."

Confirmed Thursday, scheduled for next Monday and Thursday. He noted that a used tissue had fallen off the couch next to me, so I grabbed it. I threw the tissues in his trash can then paid. I think I talked about the upcoming warm weather. Shook hands as T said, "Have a good few days." It felt like he squeezed my hand more than usual, like it was more of a sort of reassuring hand squeeze than a handshake. Which was nice. But it was probably just random or in my head.

Headed out, realizing I'd felt strangely dissatisfied with the session but didn't know why. Thought I'd figure it out by next session (today), but still unsure...maybe it's that we didn't delve more into the thing in the trigger warning? Or maybe I'd wanted him to have some sort of emotional reaction to that? I don't know. Might discuss that a bit today.

[SlumberKitty]

I thought the part in the trigger warning was a good realization on your part. Well done LT!

[DP_2017]

""People make fun of me for this, but I can drive for 5 hours without listening to anything, just with my thoughts." Me: "You mean music? I know you're not that into that. Or do you mean not even a podcast or something?" T: "Nothing at all, just driving." "

OMG That made me so excited LOL. Your T is me. I finally "found" another person like this. I thought it was just me and my weirdness. I hate talking and music etc in the car... but I do like company because of my driving anxiety...however I'm fine with them just being present, no need to talk or whatever. Even if I'm a passenger, I prefer silence. I'm like this in a lot of situations. I crave silence.


Anyway... CBT worksheets can be helpful. T did print me off one once and it was kind of like what you described and filling it out was helpful. It helped me see different views on my thinking. I still have a copy of one. Baby T has been redirecting my thoughts and helping me see more "grey" area in my otherwise black/white thinking. I think CBT could really help us both

I haven't done mindfulness but let us know how it works for you. I am trying to live more in the present. It's a bit tough but I am doing better than I expected so far.

Also...I do think you should talk about your need for people to have certain reactions to things. It seems to come up alot, quite often with T but in other situations too. Like you get these reactions you want them to have in your mind and if they don't... you feel uncared about or less than or whatever and it bothers you. People can't be something they are not. I am not trying to be mean about this. I honestly have no clue what this comes from or how to fix it, I just see it often and see the pain and distress is causes you. I would say it's really worth working on if you can

I know we have talked too about your goal of weekly sessions, it may take a while still but I think you will get there. One day at a time. Hope today goes well for you, whatever you choose to discuss there.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Hope your session today goes well and you feel better about it than about the last one!


I did a similar CBT exercise once early on in therapy. I found it quite helpful and still do it from time to time on my own when things get rough.
Regarding mindfulness, I found there's a lot of good books that are relatively short to read and help in understanding it (somehow it seems that on the one hand everyone talks about it like they know what it is and on the other hand it seems like a rather hard concept to grasp, even though in the end it's really not that difficult).

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I can totally see where your H would kind of just sit back and let you talk if that was the path of least resistance. It might be easier (or at least more necessary!) for your H to open up if there wasn't the LT/MC dynamic taking up so much space. I really, truly don't think MC knew what he was doing, which might have even made things worse. With the right couples counselor, the fact that your H is slow to open up could be useful data in itself.

I get a tiny flavor of how my T approaches relationship issues when we talk about my marriage and she gives me suggestions about how to handle certain issues. It's very different from the individual work we usually do. I also learned a few really interesting things about the assumptions my wife makes when I brought her to an individual session once. And she and I talk all the time at home. So I bet there are all kinds of things you could learn about your H in the right setting. And I have to think a stronger marriage would make it easier for you to make the changes you want to make in yourself too.

Maybe you can see if Dr. T could provide a referral to somebody who has a style similar to his? I agree that he seems like he could be really good with marriage counseling and working on relationship skills, so maybe he knows some like-minded professionals in your area.

I agree with this. I think it would be extremely difficult for anyone-- even someone who was more open-- to find any space in the room with the dynamic between you and MC. For someone who is slow or hesitant to open up, they often need gentle encouragement and enough space, room, and time to feel comfortable doing so. If you are always eager to fill that space yourself (because you are more open), it not only lets your H "off the hook" but it also takes away the space and time he probably needs in order to slowly open up at his own pace and in his own way. A good MC would be mindful of this dynamic and not allow it play out in marriage counseling the way it does in your home. The MC would ensure that the counseling is more balanced and does not just center around one partner in the marriage. That lop-sided dynamic can do more harm than good. It may also be really helpful for you to learn to take a back seat at times, to be okay not articulating every single thought you have, or typically taking center stage, and to let H drive the ship at times. I think, sometimes, being too quick to open up or opening up 24/7 can be just as much a barrier to successful therapy (or marriage or life in general) as not being open enough. I say this as someone who is more like you than your H. Sometimes, I've found it is healthier for me *not* to obsess about every emotion I have and be more in the moment (instead of in my head). It's very hard to connect with other people when you're only focused on your feelings or how you want things to play out and you aren't taking the other person as much into consideration. Marriage counseling with a skilled therapist could teach you and your H how to create a better dynamic between the two of you, where things are more balanced. I also think, given your tendency to have powerful transference for male Ts, that seeing a female MC could be extremely beneficial for you. I think having transference for an MC will cause most counseling relationships to ultimately fail. There just isn't room for that in marriage counseling, where the focus should be on the marriage and not on the therapist.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

(I wanted to be like, "You're married, don't you know better than to talk about what's in a woman's purse?")

. . .

Yet I say those things to myself. So it's almost like I'm basically emotionally abusing myself. Why is that OK?" T: "I would say that you are emotionally abusing yourself." Me: "Yeah..."

Just a quick reaction to the first thing-- it feels like something that has been mentioned before, in terms of your feeling that he is responding "improperly" (for lack of a better word in the moment). But the content is interesting, a supposed "rule" that the contents of a purse shouldn't be talked about. I don't personally see why that is a problem in general, why it's a problem for a T, why it's a problem (I do realize not a serious one) in this context, or why you wouldn't say something like this that you thought. It may be that this is a little window into some small piece of your relationship "style," where you have fixed ideas about what's okay and not to discuss, yet you also silence yourself from saying something. It's the juxtaposition of the belief that he's "wrong" while not saying it-- when you are perfectly comfortable criticizing him about other things.

On the second thing, I do think that there are all kinds of self-harm people engage in (including addictions to substances, food, etc) that don't get labeled as such. I think staying in relationships that aren't good for us (note I am not saying you do any of these things) and putting ourselves in situations where we know we are going to be hurt can be a way to "punish" ourselves for real or perceived wrongs. Maybe saying those unkind/untrue things to yourself fits within that model, and *maybe* it's less harmful than engaging in more physical self-harm. But being aware that you do this and seeing it for what it is seems to me like a big step forward, one to see as progress.

[unaluna]

anne! Wow. Youve summed up my theory of mind of not-me. The real me wasnt married to my flaky husbands, but not me sure jumped thru hoops. Not that my life is excellent now, but at least i dont have that awful split - im just living one life.