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Default Apr 01, 2019 at 02:47 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by susannahsays View Post
It's interesting that you don't think he's giving you frequent reassurance. Maybe you just tend to write more about the reassurances he does give. I wonder what frequent reassurance would look like to you, and also if your pattern of reassurance seeking is not just anxiety, but more complicated, like an OCD behavior. When you talk about it, that's what comes to my mind.

I think I'm just someone who seeks lots of reassurance. I could definitely see it being an OCD thing, as I have that as well. It's interesting that from your perspective he does give a lot of reassurance. Do others think that as well? I may have just been spoiled by ex-MC.
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Default Apr 01, 2019 at 02:52 PM
  #162
Yes he definitely gives it often. More than many ts i read about

Your current t is probably closer to how average people are although he gives more than most too but yes ex mc was way more than ts typically do. Thankfully current t is not ex mc.

I just think you work more on your value and self worth you might not need as much reassurance

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Default Apr 01, 2019 at 03:10 PM
  #163
Cross-posting from couch because it's relevant. Will post more about session later (not sure if tonight or tomorrow):
T made a parenting analogy about his role as a therapist today. And used a couple related analogies in terms of his work with me. Like bird teaching its young to fly. But not pushing them from nest until he knows they can do it, then he’d be there cheering them on. Also about never pushing me into the deep end of the pool before I’m ready. It was sort of confusing as he doesn’t tend to do that. And it made me think of ex-MC, who did often make those comparisons. Lots of emotions right now.
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Default Apr 01, 2019 at 03:31 PM
  #164
Yep that's a good way to describe therapist in our lives

It's ok to still have emotions over ex mc. Grief never ends really it just gets more manageable. You will probably always miss him and have sad times and it's ok

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Default Apr 01, 2019 at 05:08 PM
  #165
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I think I'm just someone who seeks lots of reassurance. I could definitely see it being an OCD thing, as I have that as well. It's interesting that from your perspective he does give a lot of reassurance. Do others think that as well? I may have just been spoiled by ex-MC.
to me, responding to emails is a form of reassurance even if paid for. my understanding is that he isnt paid for every email right? Yet it is important to him to reassure you. From what you report it sounds as though he is reassuring you in session also. he doesnt, however, break his boundaries of contact to reassure you like ex mc used to and maybe that is something worth exploring.

I know I have a hard time accepting care that isnt rooted in chaos and hurt because it is so confusing and new to me. ex mc blurred things and ultimately made things difficult and yet it is easier to think he "cared" than someone who will be there in a predictable, consistant way. It's easier sometimes when the chaos is familiar to think of something g as reassuring and caring even when it is not.

rambling away, sorry!!
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Default Apr 01, 2019 at 05:37 PM
  #166
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It's interesting that from your perspective he does give a lot of reassurance. Do others think that as well? I may have just been spoiled by ex-MC.
Yes, I do. It may be because I am more on the opposite end of the spectrum and very rarely seek reassurance from people, it was also similar in therapy.

I am pretty sure that your T finds you and working with you super interesting. I always have the impression that he likes challenge and you challenge him all the time in many ways, including to broaden his knowledge and therapeutic toolkit.

BTW, you may not idealize this T but I can do it for you And I am not someone prone to idealizing people. But when it comes to therapists, the ones I have encountered and read about here, your T is still by far my favorite. Perhaps because I am not so much into the very deep and extensive psychoanalytic type work many people here on PC love when it comes to therapy for myself and would prefer a more practical approach (in spite of being a very analytical and introspective person), but I love to read about it and explore on my own in everyday life.

One thing I wonder: when (many) people here suggest that you might do better with a T who is more of an expert working with transference and attachment, what would it be like and what benefits would it have for you? I personally don't have the impression, reading the session posts, that this T's style deepens your attachment and transference, more the opposite, that it keeps it at bay. Funny, I think we readers here project a lot of subjective things into your therapy
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Default Apr 01, 2019 at 06:21 PM
  #167
Here are some articles on the subject you may find interesting since you do have OCD. One thing one of the articles mentions that I found interesting was the concept of reassurance vs. support. That could be something helpful to think about if you ever want to work on scaling back the reassurance you're asking for or receiving without just making yourself white knuckle it and try to cope on your own.

OCD and the Need for Reassurance

Reassurance: How it Prevents Recovery

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Default Apr 01, 2019 at 06:38 PM
  #168
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Here are some articles on the subject you may find interesting since you do have OCD. One thing one of the articles mentions that I found interesting was the concept of reassurance vs. support. That could be something helpful to think about if you ever want to work on scaling back the reassurance you're asking for or receiving without just making yourself white knuckle it and try to cope on your own.

OCD and the Need for Reassurance

Reassurance: How it Prevents Recovery

Thanks for sharing these. T has mentioned today and at other times providing support. I guess I hadn't thought of the differences between that vs. reassurance. It seemed today when he was talking about how he could respond to me when he thought I could handle something that he would express support as opposed to reassurance. So this makes a lot of sense. I think ex-MC tended more toward reassurance, even though he'd say "I shouldn't keep reassuring you." But he'd keep doing that.
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Default Apr 01, 2019 at 08:03 PM
  #169
I feel like he does provide a decent amount of reassurance, but I get the sense from your write-ups that you feel like you have to really express your need for it loudly before he will provide it. He won't just offer reassurance to you at key moments, and that gives him a flavor of being ever-so-slightly withholding. It seems like the dynamic is that he doesn't meet your moments of deep emotion with any emotional depth of his own. This bothers you, you discuss it, then he finally clarifies his support/caring/etc. That's more my observation, although I can't really say whether this is a problem or an unhealthy pattern on either side.
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Default Apr 01, 2019 at 08:37 PM
  #170
It looks to me like you are doing the same sort of thing like you did with your female therapist and the marriage counselor - the marriage counselor was good and the female therapist was not. And the marriage counselor got you when female therapist did it wrong. Now it is current therapist who is good and marriage counselor who is not. That this guy is reacting slightly differently may or may not ultimately be useful to you - I hope he is.
But just my observation.

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Default Apr 01, 2019 at 11:57 PM
  #171
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It's interesting that from your perspective he does give a lot of reassurance. Do others think that as well? I may have just been spoiled by ex-MC.
Yes, more than any T I have ever seen. The articles susannahsays posted resonate with me as well. I think receiving reassurance has the potential to keep us dependent instead of forcing us to sit with our uncomfortable feelings and learn how to self-soothe and build up our sense of self-esteem where we no longer require that external reassurance. In my experience, not having access to reassurance is what forced me learn to live without it and become emotionally self-sufficient. I used to want reassurance much like you describe, but now it doesn't even occur to me to want it or ask for it.
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Default Apr 02, 2019 at 12:22 AM
  #172
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It's interesting that from your perspective he does give a lot of reassurance. Do others think that as well? I may have just been spoiled by ex-MC.
I see the intensity with which you seek reassurance more important than how much T gives or doesn't give. I don't say this judgmentally. I know it would be easy to read this post in a judgmental tone, but I am not writing with one. (I think I am reassuring you, here!) This is an observation. I have observed that your need for reassurance is so overwhelming to you that you often need that extra email contact or extra session just to be able to get through your day. That's how much you have a need for it.

I sometimes wonder... what would happen if T wasn't able to give it?
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Default Apr 02, 2019 at 07:21 AM
  #173
It might be interesting to experiment with going without reassurance, something you would discuss consciously with T and make a decision about, or develop a plan to reduce it. Then see how it feels. In my opinion, seeking reassurance so often is a way to stay on the surface and an impediment to looking at what drives it or what is underneath it. You can tell yourself you need reassurance before you can move forward, but I don't see much to support that is in fact true.
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Default Apr 02, 2019 at 08:38 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by susannahsays View Post
It's interesting that you don't think he's giving you frequent reassurance. Maybe you just tend to write more about the reassurances he does give. I wonder what frequent reassurance would look like to you, and also if your pattern of reassurance seeking is not just anxiety, but more complicated, like an OCD behavior. When you talk about it, that's what comes to my mind.
The article about reassurance vs support is really interesting! It would be interesting to dissect a real example. Also im reading the new book about procrastination and wondering how it ties into that. I believe i have the learned helplessness form of procrastination, that whatever you do, its never good enough, so eventually its why even try, it always blows up in your face. So its learning to tolerate that distress and do it anyway.

Eta - i dont see exactly how we could apply the reassurance vs support article to LT's situation of when her t said he was supporting her, when she said she felt he was palming her off to the addiction specialist. The criteria is reassuring things are going to be okay (bad) vs supporting feeling distress (good). She said she wanted his support, but was she really looking for reassurance? Is that it? Seems like a very fine line!

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Default Apr 04, 2019 at 12:30 PM
  #175
Will try to respond to some of the posts later--I do appreciate everyone's comments. Just wanted to post Monday's session.

T Monday. First half of session was really just me filling him in on the past few days, which had gone pretty well (dinner with an old friend Friday, visit to a farm with H and D Saturday, hung out with H Sunday). I said how I knew I was talking about less deep stuff, and T said, "Maybe that's what you need right now." I said he was probably right.

I really can't even recall how we ended up on this topic. It was something about his providing care and support to me. T compared it to being a parent and the challenge of not doing everything for your kid, like being a helicopter parent, and being the opposite end, like "just rub some dirt on it, it will be OK." How it can be difficult to find the exact right middle ground. I said I knew what he meant about being a parent. And shared how that morning I'd told D she could put her shirt on herself, but I stood there in case she had trouble. He said I'd handled that well, and it was a good example.

He talked about how you have to support a child but also help them toward independence. And compared that to his role as a T. Used the analogy of a bird teaching its young to fly. How it can be scary for a client to do that, but he's there cheering them on, saying, "I knew you could do it!" I asked if that happened, ifhe thought I was doing well and managing things OK, would he decide that he no longer had to reply to my emails? He said I knew his policy, that he'd still always reply. But he might say something more like, "Your instincts in this are correct, and I think you're handling it well." (Or something like that.)

I asked if once you leave the nest, that's it, or can you come back? That of course I eventually want to go back to weekly, then biweekly, then maybe monthly. He said he has a couple clients who have continued seeing him monthly, how they say it keeps them accountable and from slipping into a bad place.

I expressed more fear that he'd want me to "fly" before I was ready. He switched to a different metaphor, talking about the deep end of the pool. He said he'd make sure I had time in the shallow end first. T: "I wouldn't throw you in the deep end before I know you're ready. That wouldn't be fair." I said I appreciated that. But what if he thought I was ready but I didn't/wasn't? I forget what he said to that.

I said this was all reminding me of when ex-MC compared how he was working with me to teaching his son to ski. How he kept moving gradually further away. Me: "And he reassured me that he wouldn't leave me on the mountain. But then he kind of did?" I mentioned how on Thursday, while I was waiting to turn out of T's parking lot, I saw ex-MC walk out of his office and go up the sidewalk (he didn't see me). And I just sort of watched him for a few seconds while I waited to turn. Said how Thursday is the anniversary of termination.

I guess we ended around there? He asked if I could switch to a different time Thursday, so I did. Scheduled for the following week. Went over to pay, and, shaking my hand, he said he hoped I could continue the positive trend from the weekend. I thanked him and said I hoped so, too. T: "Take care." Me: "You, too."

I was hit by a bunch of paternal transference for him after the session, which isn't generally something I feel for him (some ET at times and some authority figure stuff, but not quite the same as paternal--it's hard to explain). I typed up an email to him that evening, but didn't send it. Figured I'd think about it until the morning. Managed to not send anything before 9 (he usually would read/reply to email before that time). But then I got really emotional and ended up emailing him around 11:30 am, knowing full well that he might not get back to me until the next morning. He ended up replying at 7 that night.

Me: "Hi Dr. T,
I tried hard to deal without sending email. But I'm really struggling with some paternal-ish feelings toward you from session (baby bird, deep end of pool). It's scary, partly because of Dr. Ex-MC. Promises he made, saying he wouldn't leave me on the metaphorical mountain (teaching to ski), when it feels like that's what he did.

It also struck me how I had to be perfect/good to get care from my parents, whereas with you, it feels like the opposite--if I'm doing good, I won't get as much care (at least outwardly). You commented I had a good weekend; that feels like one step closer to the deep end of the pool. (Even though you said you wouldn't throw me in if you weren't sure I was ready, and I keep telling myself that.) I know that's the goal. But it scares me. I suppose we need to examine why?
Thanks,
LT"

T: "LT-Sorry that you are struggling, but I think it's in part because of a misunderstanding. You said that "if I'm doing good I won't get as much care." What's actually the case is that the better you are doing, the less you'll need or want the care. We can talk more about this on Thursday, since I think it's an important issue. Your feelings about what you need take precedent rather than my interpretation of what you need. I'd also like to talk a little more about your feelings about Dr Ex-MC and your feelings of abandonment, if that's OK."

I really appreciated his response, as it helped me think about things differently We'll discuss more today.

Note: You can comment on this but PLEASE no criticism of my decision to email him. I'm doing the best I can right now. The fact that I was able to wait nearly 24 hours is progress for me (and it had been over 2 weeks since I'd emailed him--I'm not counting the asking for an extra session last week, as that was a text and merely asked what he had available, with no other content).
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Default Apr 04, 2019 at 12:55 PM
  #176
Hey LT, some of those metaphors would have made me feel nervous...like what if I'm not ready and I'm in the deep end? I think what he said about the better you're doing the less you'll need or want the care makes a lot of sense. I think it's hard to see that though when one is not yet at that point. Sounds like a good session with T overall. Well done LT. HUGS Kit

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Default Apr 04, 2019 at 01:27 PM
  #177
I wasn't much of an English student but I love a good metaphor. The parenting metaphors tend to fall flat with me, at least as they apply to therapy. But I think his email clarification was great and exactly right. Just like it was hard for me to imagine (and it was for my now teen son) that he would want to leave the house one day, it turns out he actually does. And so do I Not because I am caring for him less, now that he has a part-time job, drives his own car, does his own laundry, and cooks for himself. I'm not caring for him "less" because I'm still giving him everything he needs and wants. He just doesn't need the same things as he used to.

I still do drive him places even though he doesn't always "need" it, and sometimes cook for him or help him put his laundry away. He has transformed very recently from someone who would prefer me to do things for him to someone who says, "I've got to learn how to do these things for myself." While he may desire some "extra help" from time to time, he truly does prefer to do it himself.

I think it's hard to imagine feeling differently than you do about T's care, whether it's wanting reassurance, responses to email, or anything "care" related. But there will come a time when that will change, and it's not that you will have something taken away from you, but you will be stronger and more secure in your own abilities to care for yourself.
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Default Apr 04, 2019 at 04:55 PM
  #178
Today's session was really intense. Some stuff about my relationship with T and lots about ex-MC. I wish I could have had another hour in there. Still processing it and likely will be for a couple days. It's clear my T really cares and is trying to understand it all. And he said today that he's concerned that because he shared a few of his goals for me that I'm trying to show I'm meeting them before I'm really ready to do so. I'd said something about 6 years with ex-T and how I was seeing him twice a week, shouldn't I be making progress more quickly? But he said maybe I'm going at the speed I need to. How this could turn out to be a 6-year relationship with him, and if so, that's OK, it's just my process. It really helped to hear all of that. Again, more later.
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Default Apr 04, 2019 at 04:56 PM
  #179
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Hey LT, some of those metaphors would have made me feel nervous...like what if I'm not ready and I'm in the deep end? I think what he said about the better you're doing the less you'll need or want the care makes a lot of sense. I think it's hard to see that though when one is not yet at that point. Sounds like a good session with T overall. Well done LT. HUGS Kit

Thanks, Kit. It helps to know they'd make you nervous, too. He clarified some, today, how it's up to me, not him, to know determine what I'm ready for.
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Default Apr 04, 2019 at 05:05 PM
  #180
Yeah, I think sometimes if you try to meet goals other people set for you on their timescale (or the timescale you think they have), you just end up setting yourself back in the end. It's like when C and I felt pressured to take the usual 5 courses per semester by the parents, even though that felt overwhelming. We did it anyway to try to meet expectations, and were not successful. This had the effect of wasting money, creating a ton of unnecessary distress, and having to retake two classes because C fell apart at the end and missed the finals.

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