Being brave about therapist exploitation

IF the question is whether OP is alone about being lured
- then my response is no. I have represented clients who were lured in by therapists.

I think, trauma bonding is at the heart of all relational traumas. It's a product of a universal human belief that one cannot have a fulfilled, meaningful life without relationships with others, especially one particular significant relationship, which is either partnership or close friendship. With that belief, everything gets invested, one's entire being gets invested in a particular relationship. It becomes almost a matter of life or death to keep that person in your life, but if they behave like an asshole, the only way you can keep them is to endlessly work on trying to change them, which always fails.

This can play out in many different ways and every person has their own unique historical roots of insecurity, and so every individual situation is different, but the general theme is always the same - it's a belief that we need to obtain something from the external world to be "happy", be it a person, a community, a parent figure, a family, achievements, recognition, fame, job etc., etc.

I don't know if I could say that therapists instill the trauma bond intentionally and consciously. I can certainly say that many of them behave in the way that feeds and perpetuates clients' transference, but I am not sure that that behavior is conscious. It might be intentional, but the intention, is, mostly, unconscious, which, of course, doesn't make it any better.

The intense transference, however, is the cause of trauma bonding, that's for sure. In that sense, yes, therapists often create the conditions for this thing to appear and grow.

Like Topiary and others I came here assuming this could be a supportive place but now safe to say i will never under any circumstances share my stories here. Understanding why Ididitmyway and Oozit (who seems to be gone now) do not sse this as a safe and supportive place to share this kind of experience. If I were Topiary simply asking “Am I alone?” and receiving in answer a thread like this I would feel even more alone than before I posted which is why I gave my opinion on others’ opinions. It’s a lot to deal with and kudos to Topiary for gracefulness.

I hear you. I often feel the same way. I have found my own way to deal with it and that is to become completely and unapologetically selfish in the way I use this forum. I use it however I want within the guidelines. Which means I engage or not engage with whomever I want and when I want it and I do it in the most comfortable for me way possible. Basically, I do whatever the heck I want here within the guidelines and make myself as safe and comfortable here as possible. That's all. That helps a lot. You may want to try that strategy if you want to and see if it works for you.

I agree completely. My heart sinks every time I see a survivor who innocently puts out the topic of therapy abuse here hoping to get connected not only with other survivors but also with those who might not have experienced the same but have a desire to hear their stories with empathy, to show compassion and support.

I am not a rape victim, and I would NEVER show up at a rape survivors thread to present a "different opinion" from how they view their experiences. The only reason I might ever want to join their conversation is to learn about what it's like to be in their shoes and to show support. But, most likely, I wouldn't even want to go there. It's just not my place.

It's disturbing to see how many people don't understand that some topics are NOT for intellectual panel discussion, at least not in groups when so much raw human pain and suffering comes to the surface. People who suffer from trauma are NOT IN A PLACE to have any kind of debate about their experiences no matter how "gentle" it may intended to be.

To OP you are definitely not alone. There are many stories out there. I'm sorry somehow things went off topic of your original question.

This thread breaks my heart.

You are not alone.
You are not alone.
You are not alone.
1000 times, you are not alone.

I hear you.

Say what you mean, mean what you say but don't say it mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackocean Like Topiary and others I came here assuming this could be a supportive place but now safe to say i will never under any circumstances share my stories here. Understanding why Ididitmyway and Oozit (who seems to be gone now) do not sse this as a safe and supportive place to share this kind of experience. If I were Topiary simply asking “Am I alone?” and receiving in answer a thread like this I would feel even more alone than before I posted which is why I gave my opinion on others’ opinions. It’s a lot to deal with and kudos to Topiary for gracefulness.

Are you seriously saying that because of this one thread and a few people you do not feel safe to post about what is important to you? I think I am missing something... are dissenting opinions indictative of lack of support? I think here, like anywhere you are bound to run into perspectives that do not align with your own. I do not look at differences of opinions = unsafe. if that were the way the world operates then no one is safe. I see people here who might want to brush up on their warm and fuzzy bits but I did not get the impression that it demonstrates a lack of support. I feel like sometimes victims (myself included) are so desperate for that connection to other people who have dealt with the same thing or people that feel the same, that we often immediately get ruffled the minute we feel invalidated. I do not believe anyone on this thread and an intention to invalidate anyone. I think its important to give equal weight to those that have opinions like mine and those that don't Some of the most important lessons I have learned have been from people that I thought were misunderstanding me or mean. Very often the written word is confusing that way. I do not think a thread should exclude dissenting opinions or stories. I feel like if a thread is started and the only thing that the OP or other like-minded people want is unconditional, unwavering, unquestioning support that it should either be made clear from the very first OP or maybe a group should be started. I would say I fall somewhere in the middle of both viewpoints on this thread.

Oh, God... here we go again..

I am not going to repost the same response to the same ****. And, if you are a survivor who gets triggered by all this, I suggest you do the same. Some people will never get it. Don't waste your energy on them. Let that **** go.

Said the Boss, Ms. KnowItAll. No need to respond, btw, I've just requested that my account is closed, so there won't be dismissive, non-understanding posts from me in the future.

I wish you all well in your dwelling in the same old-same old and trying to bully people who can indeed move on!

ETA: this is in response to SarahSweets who I forgot to quote:

Do you understand PTSD? Do you have it? I don't want to assume but I feel like there is just a fundamental misunderstanding here.

Topiary said "I have fears about the safety too- but realized I am feeling past the point that someone’s failure to understand could retraumatize - I think!" I am personally not past that point as I have only recently admitted I have been traumatized, as indicated by my recent join date compared to others here. Others' "failure to understand" is retraumatizing for me. Hence I do not want to put my stories or even my current issues with my therapist up for public debate on a forum. How can you not understand how people coldly, intellectually debating the issues "around" your personal trauma is not potentially damaging, if not always so?

Some of the “hedging” replies here talking about being adults, consent, “capacity” to see abuse is happening and capacity to stop it (etc) agitated/aggravated my PTSD symptoms surrounding my adult sexual abuse, and my PTSD is new to me so I have not learned to properly control it. This is unsafe because triggers can compound and then I lose a day or two to panic attacks and re-experiencing if it is bad enough. Some time ago when I first started trauma therapy I was severely triggered into an episode and lost maybe 2 months of my life in a complete meltdown.

This is what I mean by I don’t feel safe. It’s not about hurt feelings or "different of opinion" as if we are discussing something like tax brackets or who is going to win the Superbowl. We are talking about traumas and I have a trauma disorder that means I am unstable, especially unstable because I am currently processing trauma in therapy, and if I am reminded of the shame and self-blame I feel for letting this sexual abuse and exploitation happen to me as an adult with the ability to consent, who consented to abuse again and again, then I really start to panic and feel like dying because I think, This wouldn't happen to everyone, just you, you're weak, you're stupid, others who were stronger and smarter than you could have handled this or escaped this, but not you. It's not really rational but that's what happens. Here are some of the comments that made me feel this way:

"I think "being lured into..." already implies that it was something negative and the person did not have the capacity to realistically assess the costs and benefits. ... I did not dismiss that many people do not have that capacity (although I don't personally like to emphasize that very much as it sounds a bit degrading) or meant to suggest that the experience and truth of many people who suffered due to the structure of therapy and T exploitation is not very real. I also did not say that I do not understand - I think this is pretty easy to understand even without first hand experience and vulnerability. I only posted to say that it does not apply to every single person/client..."

"What one may see as manipulating another may not...if both are adults and consent to going forward."

"I also think people get traumatized by different things and also react differently what is indeed traumatic to them."

"Then again i also don't think therapy equals power imbalance. So that's fine and understandable that some see it that way or feel it but I know I'm not alone in this. It truly does come down to each person ... Everyone will experience things differently."

"I never said anything about supporting therapist client sex, unless its was years after therapy and it was consentual.

I have found plenty of research as well that says there is no imbalance and clients have more power than they often think. I have heard of therapists who say that too. It's just how you view it.

Yes, its awful what happened to you and anyone else who was traumatized or abused but it doesnt mean it happens to everyone. It doesn't mean there is always that imbalance. Every case is different. It CAN exist for some, but it doesn't always exist.

It also isn't a fantasy, the reality is, it's two humans. Some see one are more powerful, others see them more as an equal. I don't think therapists are powerful, authority figures or anything, just average people who went to school for something in this industry. Ya they have ethics and standards... but the client is also their employer basically, the client can fire them... the client can say no to things they don't wanna talk about, they client can report them if need be, the client can write crap reviews about them...... there is a lot of power clients have to, to me it's equal. not an imbalance but its ok for others to see it differently"

"An individual expressing a personal opinion, no matter what the interest she has in the subject matter, does not invalidate anyone's experience or change the truth as anyone sees fit to see it. This just seems like disagreement to me, and anyone who insists that someone else must change their mind to conform to what you believe is just a dominance and power move in and of itself. If people choose to run away from a thread or shut down because someone disagrees with them (as opposed to putting the individual on ignore and choosing not to read), that's on them. Trying to shame and guilt-trip people into changing their mind is just another form of emotional manipulation."

"I don't see ideas and opinions as dangerous or harmful to people, particularly when they are expressed about the person's own experience and not a generality or a commentary about someone else's, regardless of the content. I'm just not interested in catering to demands from superior-believing other people on a public board who insist that there is only one "right" way. I've seen no evidence that any particular individuals have greater insight into someone else's pain or are otherwise more enlightened in the human condition than others. "

"No one is saying those trite victim-blaming statements you claim here and I refuse to accept any responsibility for your projections or difficulty with reading comprehension or both. If it's harmful to you to read certain comments, the ignore button is available to you."

I even said "unintentionally invalidate" to avoid saying someone was intentionally hurting someone. apparently that is not enough here. You must agree that words never invalidate, ever, because opinions are all just opinions. And debating the circumstances that led to someone's trauma and whether that trauma would happen to them or any random person--and whether that means that these relationships are okay for some--all this is triggering for some people who have been sexually exploited in imbalanced power relationships, and of course there will always be triggers in the sense that FLASHBACKS are brought on by sensory details no one can control, but there are also some things that are not hard to predict will be triggering of trauma disorders.

No i don't want to talk about my rapes here. Jesus christ this place is a mess.

you seem like a reasonable person, I am surprised you would say this. I haven’t moved on from my own (not therapist) abuse because it was years long and I just started even thinking about it. Moving on is very hard when experiences are entangled in the fibers of your being.

Now isn’t this interesting. I don’t read idimw posts as bossy or bullying in the slightest. I read them as an attempt to create understanding here about the apt time and space for disagreement and debate. I don’t think a thread about a poster’s painful struggle is. Yet the insensitivity continues, even telling posters to open their threads with instructions and caveats what is allowed. (I could do a ridiculous treatment of that one.) Are people so therapy-coached in “speaking their minds” these days they have no awareness of anyone else’s struggle?

I couldn't even imagine I had so much power here that somebody decides to close their account because of me.. Wow.

And what a surprise that this is a person who has always presented herself as super reasonable, objective, intellectually sophisticated, independently thinking, emotionally invulnerable, someone who never lets her emotions get the best of her, who always keeps her cool, never gets abused by anyone because she is too powerful and independent for that to happen and who has never given anyone the power to influence her decisions..

And now she allows some other user on the forum, who objectively doesn't have any more power then she does, to "bully" her into closing her account???

Wow..

Well, I wish her well in her moving on, if she is really serious about it and doesn't come back here to the same "dwelling" later under a different name or something

I don't feel that way myself, but I've seen on here that, yes, there are people who really feel that way. It's different from the way I am, mostly, but if that's where they're at, that's where they're at.

I personally like to read different viewpoints but it's becoming clear to me that people insisting on their own viewpoint only, doesn't get us much of anywhere. Which is sad, because TopiarySurvivor introduced an important topic, that keeps getting sidetracked.

To me, part of healing is learning to tolerate different opinions. Some people are just too hurt, maybe, to do that? -- if that's the case then that's the case.

But I really hate to see important discussions like TopiarySurvivor started out with derailed like this.

Call me a self-righteous idealist, or something else, I can take it.

Kinda arrogant to assume you are the reason, there would be many reasons for one to close their account. I know I've been debating it and it's not for any one person. Also everyone has power, that was something she has said before. She had the power to make that choice in her life.... you don't know if you had POWER in that choice at all... you are just assuming. It's sad that some people really want support for their bad experiences and people like you represent them, you come off quite rude. I wouldn't bother listening to you at all in person.

That being said.... IF you are really all about supporting fellow survivors, maybe you can knock off the drama and go back to showing support to OP. I've apologized to them for my part in going off topic, have you? Maybe something to consider, you are not innocent

OP...I am really sorry for your bad experience and that this thread got so derailed, it was never my intention to harm you or anyone here or make you feel bad, I just merely wanted to express my view on things, as I feel a forum is a place you can do that. I wish you all the best in your healing journey

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Originally Posted by blackocean ETA: this is in response to SarahSweets who I forgot to quote: Do you understand PTSD? Do you have it? I don't want to assume but I feel like there is just a fundamental misunderstanding here.

Yes I HAVE ptsd. There is no one way of dealing with it. I didn't think I had to label myself as such in order to have an opinion that is worthy. I do not feel unsafe here. I see different opinions and experiences here and I do not necessarily agree- but I feel they are allowed to be voiced. In fact- if you feel like I need to prove I am ptsd-y enough to participate in this thread I, for the very first time EVER- shared about an assault by a doctor in one of the therapy/exploitation threads. I do not know what came over me but I felt like I could get it out into the open. I have been with my husband 25 years and not even HE knows about it. I have never brought it up. Not everyone with PTSD feels it the way you do. Not everyone is triggered the way you are. While I think there are more sensitive, less dismissive ways to say things here, I still choose to participate. If I was that triggered I wouldn't. I got into it with a specific member here who is very unstable and mean and it floored me. But then I realized its an internet forum and some are sicker than others. So I do not post in that person's threads and avoid all interaction with them. They definitely make me feel unsafe.

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Others' "failure to understand" is retraumatizing for me. Hence I do not want to put my stories or even my current issues with my therapist up for public debate on a forum. How can you not understand how people coldly, intellectually debating the issues "around" your personal trauma is not potentially damaging, if not always so?

I can see how it would hurt your feelings but I personally wouldnt call it damaging or give that much power to people on an internet forum.

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Some of the “hedging” replies here talking about being adults, consent, “capacity” to see abuse is happening and capacity to stop it (etc) agitated/aggravated my PTSD symptoms surrounding my adult sexual abuse, and my PTSD is new to me so I have not learned to properly control it. This is unsafe because triggers can compound and then I lose a day or two to panic attacks and re-experiencing if it is bad enough. Some time ago when I first started trauma therapy I was severely triggered into an episode and lost maybe 2 months of my life in a complete meltdown.

I do not share the opinion of what you mentioned above.

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I even said "unintentionally invalidate" to avoid saying someone was intentionally hurting someone. apparently that is not enough here. You must agree that words never invalidate, ever, because opinions are all just opinions. And debating the circumstances that led to someone's trauma and whether that trauma would happen to them or any random person--and whether that means that these relationships are okay for some--all this is triggering for some people who have been sexually exploited in imbalanced power relationships, and of course there will always be triggers in the sense that FLASHBACKS are brought on by sensory details no one can control, but there are also some things that are not hard to predict will be triggering of trauma disorders. No i don't want to talk about my rapes here. Jesus christ this place is a mess.

No one said you have to talk about anything. I was just wondering why it felt unsafe.

“If I was that triggered I wouldnt”—exactly, this is what I am saying. You asked me why I would feel unsafe with “different opinions” being offered about my traumatic experience and here I am saying that in this case the opinions triggered me and I would not want to open my own post up to this because I don’t feel safe being that vulnerable in a place where “anything goes and toughen up buttercup” at the moment. I used the word “triggered” and you ask “why do you feel unsafe? Cant you handle different opinions?” when clearly you know what a trigger is and what makes triggers unsafe...., I said similar debate ensuing around my trauma would trigger me so i would not share here, so why are you bothering me about this and lecturing me on the importance of hearing other opinions if you know what being triggered is like?

I’m sorry about the doctor also, that’s horrible.

This thread is being closed for administrative review.