[ElectricManatee]

My T doesn't seem to subscribe to the idea that she should give me a lot of guidelines about what I can or should do or how I should conduct myself in relation to her. She seems to want things to evolve organically with a lot of flexibility. Initially I found this terrifying because I didn't want to run into a boundary without knowing it was there. I would rather memorize some rules and do everything perfectly so as to never frustrate or irritate her. I think I was afraid that she wouldn't like me anymore if I did something wrong, even if it was just a minor faux pas.

I have since made a few missteps and we have talked about them. My reactions to her saying, "Hey, that thing you're doing isn't really working for me right now, can we talk about it?" have been embarrassingly intense. But she seems to want to understand what is going on instead of telling me why I am wrong. I am guessing I have enforced my own boundaries to her at various points too (like not wanting to talk about something or disagreeing with her suggested course of action), but that feels very different because she just respects my boundary and we move on. She can't really tell me that she hates my boundaries the way I can tell her that I hate hers at great length and with much emphasis.

I think the whole point of her being vague about boundaries and limits (besides the obvious ones like the therapeutic frame and no dual relationships) is that our relationship can withstand conflict and negotiation without imploding. This seems like a useful lesson for relationships in general because you can't possibly know everybody's limits and triggers before agreeing to be friends or significant others or whatever. And if a close relationship isn't strong enough to tolerate give-and-take and accommodating each other's reactions and feelings, then maybe it isn't worth having. But it still feels different because of the power differential between us as therapist and client. (I subscribe to the notion that she has more emotional power, even though I hold the financial power.)

I guess I am wondering if other people have thoughts about this or have experienced something similar. Does your therapist have strict rules or boundaries? Do you wish they laid things out more clearly, or are you okay with talking about what happened after you have overstepped? This could be about outside contact or about any other thing that comes up. If you hate something they have told you not to do, do you let them know? Do you get less mortified about "making mistakes" over time? I am still trying to figure this out, so I appreciate any input.

[Omers]

My T doesn’t have strict rules or boundaries and has yet to really tell me no. He knows I am terrified of crossing his boundaries. I mentioned in an email my greatest fear in talking about hard stuff with him was that I would move my chair too close to him or reach out to hold his hand. The next session the chairs were closer together and the next time I was feeling vulnerable he reached out and held my hand. He says we can talk about boundaries any time but when we do his reply is usually thanking me for sharing where I was at rather than giving me the longed for list of rules and the high visibility tape around his personal space. But... there is a give and take. The only reason I haven’t gone completely bonkers with this style from him is because of how very firmly he established that he would not react to me... we would talk through things. He is aware that even gently saying that something I did made him a little uncomfortable would throw me into deep shame and an emotional storm from heck... so he knows to tread very lightly.

[Taylor27]

We always talk about it if i feel like i have broken a boundary, or I feel unsure of something. I am always afraid to cross the boundary and sometimes i am too rigid allot of that comes from being hurt by my first long term counsellor.

[healed84]

My t explained boundaries kind of like yours. He was hesitant to set firm yes and no on most things. When he first gave me his cell phone number, he did make it clear what I should use it for. He was also clear that he does not add patients as friends on Facebook, but that came from a conversation we were having in session not about boundaries. Other than that, extra appointments, emails, texting, calling all are as I feel I need it. He assured me that he trusts my judgment and if I need something I should ask and we can talk about it.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by healed84

Other than that, extra appointments, emails, texting, calling all are as I feel I need it. He assured me that he trusts my judgment and if I need something I should ask and we can talk about it.

Do you like that? Sometimes it makes total sense to me that I can regulate the amount of contact, and sometimes I feel like I can't trust my judgment so she shouldn't either. Like, if I'm in control, it's going to get all messed up...

I've always been a proponent of organic boundary meeting and may have posted about it a few times.

The reason I think it's useful is it's tied to your sense of self, development. You're left trying to find where the boundary is at through navigating it according to your view of yourself and way of interacting with others, which if the other person doesn't define, would be more independent from the other.

On the other hand, if someone tells you where a boundary is or should be, your behavior is dependent on them, so you don't discover who you are/where you begin/where you end. (not saying you personally need any of this but using for illustration of concept)

Many parents either don't let their children explore who they are (overcontrolling) or don't set healthy limits, so the boundaries of your past in part are integrated with your developed self. Some examples from my history-my parents didn't parent me for the most part, so I often was often exploring things on my own. I would get in dangerous situations, putting myself in harms way, and carried that through to my adult life. I got in a lot of trouble when younger. Before that when much younger, if my father was home, I wasn't allowed to speak or enter a room, and my mother ignored me as I was self-sufficient, so I never had a real chance to express myself or my needs or wishes or feelings with a significant other.

It's difficult to know who you are if your parents never mirrored you or talked to you or showed you appropriate limits. All this developmental stuff transfers over to your boundaries and how you relate to others. So it's about self-discovery and expression, which is imo reconstructing sense of self.

So in your example here, these behaviors come from your inner world, and you are figuring it all out in the therapy. If you T outlined 'correct behavior' , you're actions would be dependent on her rather than self-defined. Left with no structure, you are left with no choice but to solidifying yourself, figuring out who you are.

Do you get less mortified about "making mistakes" over time?

[ElectricManatee]

Octoberful, I think that hits the mark exactly. The parent who did the vast majority of raising me is very tightly wound with rigid ideas about how the world works and the way things should be done. So to please her (and thus gain protection from my other parent), I had to internalize a bunch of her rules, rather than operate primarily from a place of knowing about my own needs and asking to have them met. It just becomes impossible to know how to please my T -- and ignore my self in the process -- if she doesn't lay down some rules. Which I guess is the whole point. It's very uncomfortable...

That makes sense. So now that you have the freedom to be yourself, rather than tiptoe around another's needs, it is difficult to figure out who to be...

That's why I think it can be very effective. Otherwise, you're/the client is not becoming an independent person from T.

This is also how that blank slate concept works.

I hope you feel better now if you can view it as purposeful.

[piggy momma]

We talk about pretty much everything. We don’t talk a lot about boundaries specifically. He knows I know that we’ll never be friends, we won’t hang out, etc. We already have a complicated relationship because he’s my prof and I see him at class. I have free reign to email and text as much as I want. I’ve significantly reduced how much I email him because I would rather talk about stuff,-and not have him draw conclusions without the whole story. The problem now is I feel like I need twice a week and he won’t give it to me - that’s a hard boundary for him.

Otherwise we don’t really have boundary issues. We’ve had some serious, serious issues in our relationship and my suicidal ideation is a boundary I’m just learning to live around. But we’ve also always managed to work thru everything, which I give him so much credit for.

[Omers]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Do you like that? Sometimes it makes total sense to me that I can regulate the amount of contact, and sometimes I feel like I can't trust my judgment so she shouldn't either. Like, if I'm in control, it's going to get all messed up...

Having had all sorts of arrangements I do like being able to ask for as much contact as I need and he only regulates his replies. He has only seen me once outside of his regular hours and he came in an hour early for me. The session before I had been vulnerable, we made some progress but some things he counted on helping were not helpful. When he got to his desk he was mortified that he didn’t have openings the next week and I think he went to a training the week after... but I didn’t ask for it. He has expressed concern over my finances as my insurance will reimburse for him but not for the full amount and for very limited sessions... well below what we both know I will reasonably need yet alone want. I do worry about messing it up but he assured me that as long as I was being appropriate and accepting his limits that if he ever felt angry or resentment over my contact he would need to look at himself not me. and... that if I became angry about his limits then we would look at what the anger was telling us. He doesn’t jump to anger or boundaries easily. He was concerned when I knew something detailed about his family that he did not know was on his web page but we had a good laugh when I showed it to him. He was only concerned for their safety and privacy. Also, at the time (second session) he really didn’t know me at all to know if I was the type to go looking for his family or lash out at them... he has been doing this long enough that I am sure he has had clients who have or would.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

It just becomes impossible to know how to please my T -- and ignore my self in the process -- if she doesn't lay down some rules. Which I guess is the whole point. It's very uncomfortable...

I’m in a similar place in my therapy. My T doesn’t really set boundaries for me and I have jokingly asked him for the therapy rule book. It would be so much easier if he’d just tell me what he wants from me. I agree that it’s a very uncomfortable process.

[healed84]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Do you like that? Sometimes it makes total sense to me that I can regulate the amount of contact, and sometimes I feel like I can't trust my judgment so she shouldn't either. Like, if I'm in control, it's going to get all messed up...

It has been a bit nerve racking at times.. I worry, and apologize about excessive email or neediness. But then I remind myself he is the one who tells me that I should reach out if feel I need it. And never once in 7 years has he had an issue with any texts, phone calls, or emails. He has suggested when I have been in a pattern of emailing or texting a lot in between sessions that perhaps we should bump session frequency up a bit for a while to help me get through the rough patch. But it was in no way a rebuke. So far it’s all been in my control and never has gone overboard.

[ArtleyWilkins]

I've never had a therapist set hard-fast rules at the start. It's always been a flexible, organic, process of getting to know each other. That's how real relationships work in this world. People's boundaries are generally flexible if they are healthy boundaries, and we have to be able to accept people's need to change boundaries sometimes because ours will change at times too. Circumstances change. People's needs change. In a mutually respectful relationship, you communicate those needs and changes, and generally accept and honor each other's needs, even when they change so long as the reasons are healthy and understandable. And if something happens where a person lets you know you've nudged up a bit to hard against their boundary, you learn and adjust and move on. That's pretty normal, healthy relationship stuff.

[stopdog]

I was never concerned about my ability to hold my own boundaries.

[susannahsays]

If the therapist had given or were to give me an actual preemptive list of all her boundaries to follow, I would feel insulted and infantilized. That seems like diva behavior to me. I don't feel like it's necessary to give one to her, so why should she give one to me? Would I have to laminate it and bring it to therapy sessions as a reference? Keep it on my person in case I had to contact her outside of session? Memorize it?