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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 08:12 AM
  #1
Most people feel heard and understood, maybe even cared for, in therapy. Just in therapy. But the sad reality is that the only reason why people feel this way is because of how controlled the environment is. It’s rules, boundaries, training the therapist had to undergo etc. It’s sad that these things need to be put in place in order for one human to be truly there for another. It’s sad that the humans outside of therapy are unable to be there the same way a human who had to be trained and whose behaviour is shaped by rules can. It’s sad that humans have to be taught how to listen to one another without judgement even though we are all humans. Whether they are family or close friends, they still fail in that area. Of course there are some humans who are able to give you what a therapist can - I, for example, believe I know the appropriate way to behave if someone were to confide in me, however, this is because me and anyone else who can be truly there for a human in terms of listening, understanding, being nonjudgemental etc, have some level of understanding of psychology. The rest of the world just lives life pretending they have their **** together, refusing to be human for each other. Family and friends included. It’s no wonder people fear vulnerability, it’s no wonder we walk around with masks on, it’s no wonder our pain, hurt, negative thoughts etc are internalised so often. Anyone who is aware of the reality of life and humans, knows how blurry the ability to find true contentment in this ****** world is. Others are not aware, and they are easy to manipulate with words. If they are struggling and you have a piece of advice to give, all you need to do is analyse their personality and deliver this same advice accordingly - if they appear sensitive slightly, deliver with a soft voice. Another human may need you to deliver the advice with passion and/or aggression. And boom, they believe it and begin to feel better. But those of us who can think beyond the glass ceiling above us, whose capacity to think is greater, it’s not enough. There’s always room to criticise.
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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 08:43 AM
  #2
Oh dark it is very true of many people. There are amazing people out there who are amazingly supportive and nonjudgmental. They do make mistakes and stumble on occasion but so doesn't T. I also make the same mistakes.

The difference between my Ts and my husband and best friend is that T doesnt feel the same degree of anger towards my abuser. My loves ones get extremely angry and struggle when I talk about my past...it is painful for them because they know how much pain I am in. I dint jave to protect T.

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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 01:20 PM
  #3
This seems rather condescending.

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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 01:26 PM
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This seems rather condescending.
Was not intentional. Rather a failure to express thoughts clearly.
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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 01:45 PM
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Others are not aware, and they are easy to manipulate with words. If they are struggling and you have a piece of advice to give, all you need to do is analyse their personality and deliver this same advice accordingly - if they appear sensitive slightly, deliver with a soft voice. Another human may need you to deliver the advice with passion and/or aggression. And boom, they believe it and begin to feel better. But those of us who can think beyond the glass ceiling above us, whose capacity to think is greater, it’s not enough.
I used to see relationships in a similar way, pretty mechanically, like you just have to figure out the right button to push and you will get the desired response. But I think analyzing somebody's personality and delivering advice appropriate to them is really very detached, it's not actually "being there for them" because it's not connecting with them on an emotional level. Some people are harder to connect with than others but if you're standing back figuring out how best to manipulate the other person, the connection problem might not be on their side.
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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 01:56 PM
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But I think analyzing somebody's personality and delivering advice appropriate to them is really very detached, it's not actually "being there for them" because it's not connecting with them on an emotional level.
This is interesting! Reckon many people do just that, rather than connecting with someone on an emotional level, and that is why opening up to others just doesn’t do it? That this is why people feel unseen and unheard?

The follow up question would then be what does connecting with someone on an emotional level look like?
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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 02:26 PM
  #7
Though humans are human because of their emotions and emotions muck up stuff between people so I think its possible that a therapist is just an objective listener and being good at that could take some training.

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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 03:16 PM
  #8
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. . .

It’s sad that humans have to be taught how to listen to one another without judgement even though we are all humans.

. . .
It’s no wonder people fear vulnerability, it’s no wonder we walk around with masks on, it’s no wonder our pain, hurt, negative thoughts etc are internalised so often. Anyone who is aware of the reality of life and humans, knows how blurry the ability to find true contentment in this ****** world is.
I appreciate your thoughts here. These parts really ping for me. I don't think that most people know how to listen, to hear someone's experience and not to read into it and misinterpret it from their own needs, in service of their own confirmation of what they think as opposed to understanding the other person's perspective. A loved one who can listen to your pain without getting themselves in the way is a real gift. Many don't really want to.

For me, feeling deeply heard in therapy has also led to thoughts like this. To have someone listen to what I've been through or how I feel about my experiences, without telling me I'm to blame or I should be over it by now or whatever. Who encourages me to work towards the changes I want in my life but who doesn't have a stake in whether I do or not. Who helps me figure out what my "true contentment" is, because it doesn't really resemble social norms or the facebook lives (talk about a mask) that many people seem to care about.

What I hear going on with you is a shift of awakening into wanting something more from the world than just to get along, fit in, be socially approved of., support the status quo, etc. I think looking for deeper connections, the fellow travelers of this path you are on to want to listen to the way things really are and to want others to listen to your truth can be part of a meaningful purpose and life. As you say, people will criticize you for it. You'll be criticized or people will tell you they don't like how you're changing because human wiring includes the evolutionary influence of being part of the tribe. What you're describing is anti-tribe, a sort of aloneness that individuals are not really supposed to want. It's a little paradoxical, because this kind of aloneness-- maybe it's more like freedom from the b.s. of surface-level social connections-- will actually connect you more to people, but only some people. Finding those, the fellow travelers, is not easy.
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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 03:28 PM
  #9
Therapists get paid a lot to listen and care for one hour only. Then therapy clients generalise that expectation - but outside therapy relationships are two-way and subject to more random influence. I avoid people who project the same expectations on other humans as they get satisfied in the formal setting of paid-for therapy.

There has to be some freedom in a two-way relationship to be honest/ to be different from one moment to the other/ not just to be there for the other person's emotional neediness. Freedom to say "you're welcome" or "not today, i'm not in the mood". Saying "no" to other people's needs is as important as saying "yes".

Seems to me that outside therapy a lot goes on in learning to tolerate genuine differences between people's habitual patterns and ways of relating -for me at least!!

It's a difficult combination for me when someone both behaves like a victim of emotional trauma at the same time as wanting to control others response to them. It's understandable in therapy, but in real life when so many things are flying around at the same time and I'm chasing them... it grabs at my better nature at the same time as manipulating and throwing me for a loop.

That's what I am learning. Many high-minded things in life are double-edged: they reach for the better nature in me at the same time as offering something seductive, controlling and incomplete in reality. They confuse my jangled sense of self!!!

Two sides to every human problem?

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Last edited by saidso; Apr 06, 2019 at 03:44 PM..
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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 04:17 PM
  #10
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I appreciate your thoughts here. These parts really ping for me. I don't think that most people know how to listen, to hear someone's experience and not to read into it and misinterpret it from their own needs, in service of their own confirmation of what they think as opposed to understanding the other person's perspective. A loved one who can listen to your pain without getting themselves in the way is a real gift. Many don't really want to.

For me, feeling deeply heard in therapy has also led to thoughts like this. To have someone listen to what I've been through or how I feel about my experiences, without telling me I'm to blame or I should be over it by now or whatever. Who encourages me to work towards the changes I want in my life but who doesn't have a stake in whether I do or not. Who helps me figure out what my "true contentment" is, because it doesn't really resemble social norms or the facebook lives (talk about a mask) that many people seem to care about.

What I hear going on with you is a shift of awakening into wanting something more from the world than just to get along, fit in, be socially approved of., support the status quo, etc. I think looking for deeper connections, the fellow travelers of this path you are on to want to listen to the way things really are and to want others to listen to your truth can be part of a meaningful purpose and life. As you say, people will criticize you for it. You'll be criticized or people will tell you they don't like how you're changing because human wiring includes the evolutionary influence of being part of the tribe. What you're describing is anti-tribe, a sort of aloneness that individuals are not really supposed to want. It's a little paradoxical, because this kind of aloneness-- maybe it's more like freedom from the b.s. of surface-level social connections-- will actually connect you more to people, but only some people. Finding those, the fellow travelers, is not easy.
Spot on! All that you mentioned in the last paragraph is what makes therapy harder! A therapist, because of their training/knowledge etc, provides what I need, both the listening and knowing how to respond, but that ends up hurting me because I don’t have that in real life. It’s an hour a week, when I need it more often and with someone a part of my real life.
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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 04:23 PM
  #11
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Therapists get paid a lot to listen and care for one hour only. Then therapy clients generalise that expectation - but outside therapy relationships are two-way and subject to more random influence. I avoid people who project the same expectations on other humans as they get satisfied in the formal setting of paid-for therapy.

There has to be some freedom in a two-way relationship to be honest/ to be different from one moment to the other/ not just to be there for the other person's emotional neediness. Freedom to say "you're welcome" or "not today, i'm not in the mood". Saying "no" to other people's needs is as important as saying "yes".

Seems to me that outside therapy a lot goes on in learning to tolerate genuine differences between people's habitual patterns and ways of relating -for me at least!!

It's a difficult combination for me when someone both behaves like a victim of emotional trauma at the same time as wanting to control others response to them. It's understandable in therapy, but in real life when so many things are flying around at the same time and I'm chasing them... it grabs at my better nature at the same time as manipulating and throwing me for a loop.

That's what I am learning. Many high-minded things in life are double-edged: they reach for the better nature in me at the same time as offering something seductive, controlling and incomplete in reality. They confuse my jangled sense of self!!!

Two sides to every human problem?
“Therapists get paid a lot to listen and care for one hour only. Then therapy clients generalise that expectation - but outside therapy relationships are two-way and subject to more random influence. I avoid people who project the same expectations on other humans as they get satisfied in the formal setting of paid-for therapy.”

This is the problem for me personally. Can it not be possible that a two-way relationship can provide the same sense of satisfaction? Why can’t we listen wholeheartedly to one another and use our own experiences to connect on a deeper level with each other? This doesn’t mean that the relationship has to be all about being there for each other to meet emotional needs. That the purpose of meeting/talking is for that purpose only. It’s about being there for each other WHEN you are in need. Feeling safe and comfortable enough to be your genuine self when need be. So many are not willing to provide/go there when they need to.
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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 04:24 PM
  #12
Honestly, I feel if somebody has to listen to me rant about my mood swings for an hour a week, plus deal with the intensity of all my emotions, they need some form of training. I've had experiences with people caring about me similar to how a therapist would. But there were no boundaries there. I would call at 2 am and freak out my friends with threats of killing myself. I'd tell them about trauma I experienced and take them on an emotional roller coaster for hours at a time. If you have no training in how to act in such situations, you can mess things up a lot, both for yourself and the person how's having issues.

I agree to a certain degree that some things can be fixed by just having somebody who listens, understands, is non-judgemental. And I also see that caring for each other in this way seems to be more and more lost. But at least for some mental illnesses, it's just not treatable by normal people. I'd not want my friends to take out my appendix or treat my broken arm. Neither do I think they'd be suitable to treat deep psychological issues.
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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 04:26 PM
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Honestly, I feel if somebody has to listen to me rant about my mood swings for an hour a week, plus deal with the intensity of all my emotions, they need some form of training. I've had experiences with people caring about me similar to how a therapist would. But there were no boundaries there. I would call at 2 am and freak out my friends with threats of killing myself. I'd tell them about trauma I experienced and take them on an emotional roller coaster for hours at a time. If you have no training in how to act in such situations, you can mess things up a lot, both for yourself and the person how's having issues.

I agree to a certain degree that some things can be fixed by just having somebody who listens, understands, is non-judgemental. And I also see that caring for each other in this way seems to be more and more lost. But at least for some mental illnesses, it's just not treatable by normal people. I'd not want my friends to take out my appendix or treat my broken arm. Neither do I think they'd be suitable to treat deep psychological issues.
With that perspective, I agree a 100%.
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Default Apr 06, 2019 at 05:38 PM
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My friends and family aren't therapists, and my therapist is not my friend or family. That's vitally important to remember. I would NEVER expect my friends or family to deal with my level of depression and suicidality, my PTSD symptoms, etc. in any sort of deep way. They can offer loving support, but they don't really know how to deal with that level of issue, NOR would I ever want to place that burden on them. That is not what those relationships are built for. If I am having that level of issue, that is what my therapist is for. I want that objective, unattached-to-my-personal-life person for that very purpose. That objectivity and separateness was probably THE most valuable aspect of having a therapist. I didn't have to worry about his attachment for me personally.
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Default Apr 07, 2019 at 05:23 AM
  #15
I don't think the OP is saying she wants a therapeutic relationship with her friends and family, being the mental healthy part of it, or the way a therapy relationship is imbalanced and focused only on her. I think she is saying that having people in your real life who listen to you without bringing judgment or themselves into what they think they hear is hard to find out there, that people are not terribly good at connecting with others because we aren't taught to listen to others, and that it is hard to want deeper honesty and connection with people when many people don't even understand what that means.

Therapy can be eye-opening, causing you to look at your life and the people in it, realizing you want something else or something more than what you currently have. It can be painful to see that most or all of your relationships with people disappoint you, not because they are bad people in some way, but because you are looking for something else that seems impossible. But it is possible, just not easy. When you open up to the world in new ways, it can take awhile before your fellow travelers hear it.
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Default Apr 07, 2019 at 05:50 AM
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I don't think the OP is saying she wants a therapeutic relationship with her friends and family, being the mental healthy part of it, or the way a therapy relationship is imbalanced and focused only on her. I think she is saying that having people in your real life who listen to you without bringing judgment or themselves into what they think they hear is hard to find out there, that people are not terribly good at connecting with others because we aren't taught to listen to others, and that it is hard to want deeper honesty and connection with people when many people don't even understand what that means.

Therapy can be eye-opening, causing you to look at your life and the people in it, realizing you want something else or something more than what you currently have. It can be painful to see that most or all of your relationships with people disappoint you, not because they are bad people in some way, but because you are looking for something else that seems impossible. But it is possible, just not easy. When you open up to the world in new ways, it can take awhile before your fellow travelers hear it.
So on point, thank you for reflecting what I have been feeling so well.
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Default Apr 07, 2019 at 12:31 PM
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So on point, thank you for reflecting what I have been feeling so well.
I'm glad it was helpful. I'd encourage you to keep looking for your fellow travelers, because they are out there. Good luck with it.
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