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Default Apr 07, 2019 at 09:25 AM
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Hey, guys.

I was just wondering: could anybody here please tell me whether or not there is such a thing as psychological corporations that are specifically designed and created to scam people out of their money with psychotherapy? I mean, is it particularly common? Are there corporations in which the psychotherapists are all fully aware that the so-called “psychotherapy treatment” that they offer is a complete and utter scam? I ask, because: back in 2017 I had begun what is apparently referred to as “Cognitive Behavioral Therapy” (CBT) and paid $650 for 6 and a half sessions (it was recommended that I go to this so-called “psychotherapy” for a total a six months, so that would be about 24 sessions in total... amounting to about $2,400)... but the whole thing just felt like a big scam to me.

I was already aware that “CBT” was in itself a real thing and not a scam as I had read about it beforehand. I wasn't concerned about whether or not “CBT” was in itself a scam; but, my third psychotherapist seemed to be be fully aware that this specific psychotherapy treatment that I was receiving from her wasn't actually “CBT” at all or anything else that could possibly be considered as having been real psychotherapy and that I was being scammed out of my money real good.

I decided to look these people up to find out whether or not they were legitimate, and it did seem that they were (in fact) legitimate. For example: I looked up the psychotherapist's “PSB” license number on the California Department of Consumer Affairs web site, and she showed up as a “Registered Psychological Assistant”. I also found her LinkedIn profile, but I wasn't exactly sure how to verify some of the stuff that was on there... like I wasn't exactly sure how to find out whether or not she really got a “PsyD.” at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology—do I just call the school and ask? Anyway, her boss (a psychologist with a PhD., and also both the “Director” and owner of their psychological corporation) had evaluated me for all personality disorders and mental disorders back in July of 2016, and he told me that he didn't think me to have any personality disorder whatsoever; however, he did diagnose me as having three disorders—Major Depressive Disorder (MDD), Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD), and Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD). I had also looked the owner up on: the California Department of Consumer Affairs web site, on LinkedIn, and I ran something of a background check on these people using BeenVerified and a few other web sites. These people all seemed to be legitimate, but then when I looked up their corporation on certain web sites (such as Yelp)... they did show up, except they had absolutely zero reviews. So I had no idea what their other patients thought of them.

The owner of this corporation recommended to me that I begin psychotherapy with one of his subordinates (my third psychotherapist). After feeling undecided for nearly eight months, I had finally given in sometime around February of 2017 and I decided to begin seeing this psychotherapist, hoping to get some answers from her boss who had told me the following throughout various e-mails over the previous eight months:

Quote:
I would be happy to provide you with psychotherapy

Quote:
In order for this to work, you will have to accept some limited guidance from me

Quote:
I am repeating my offer to provide you with psychotherapy. All questions (such as the recent one) can be addressed within that appropriate time and space

Once I decided to begin psychotherapy with this psychotherapist he recommended, he ended up e-mailing me the following:


Quote:
I believe that it would be best to leave all these questions for the time being and dedicate to yourself instead. I suggest you concentrate on your therapy and give it some time to help you
I had neither spoken nor seen my psychologist since July of 2016, yet he claimed that he would: provide me with psychotherapy, give me some “limited guidance”, and answer my questions. I had already met with the psychotherapist for a total of 6 and a half sessions and paid $650, and I still hadn't gotten any answers. The psychotherapist could not answer any of my questions because they were intended for her boss, as only her boss could answer them because only he knew what he and I had talked about back in July of 2016. And there seemed to be limited communication between my psychotherapist and my psychologist in regards to me. The psychologist stopped responding to all of my e-mails back in February of 2018.

The way that this psychologist and my psychotherapist had behaved around me was all very strange. It was like they were stringing me along just long enough to milk me for as much profit as possible until I figured out that it was all a scam and I decided to bail on them, only to have myself replaced by another clueless patient. It's all a really long, weird, and complicated story that could take me several posts to explain.

Here is only some of the unusual and inappropriate behavior that I had observed my psychotherapist displaying:

On my first session with her she seemed quirky, quick-witted, and even came off as mildly immature. She interrupted me several times by saying what she assumed I was about to say. After she interrupted me for about the fifth or sixth time, she started laughing.

During the second session she seemed like an almost completely different person. Her appearance was radically different. She came off as slightly *****y. She seemed mostly bored or even annoyed as she kept sighing a lot throughout the session. At some point I started talking about something that I felt was relevant in regards to my family, like how they seem largely anti-science because whenever I start talking to them about science-related topics (whether they be about: genetics, neurology, mental illness, astronomy, etc.) they tend to get unusually defensive and start talking about God like how I was somehow offending him.

At that point the psychotherapist then cut me off and said something like: "Right. Science. You're really big on science. You're Mr. Science Man."

That was just so weird and random, I just responded with: "Uhhh... yeah." And I didn't bother finishing the point that I was trying to make. I remember thinking to myself: "The hell was that about? That was kind of *****y. Did she do that on purpose? Is she testing me somehow? Or maybe she's just religious and she felt offended. This might get awkward. I'm not exactly sure how this is supposed to help me overcome social anxiety."

During the third session I could’ve sworn that she must've been high on Adderall. I had also decided to let her do most of the talking during this session because she seemed really annoyed with me during the previous session. So what dic she want to talk to me about? She wanted to talk about pets. She wanted to ask me: what sort of pets I've had, if I had any sort of preference for pets, if I had any sort of preference for dog breeds, and so on. She preferred to discuss pets rather than discussing about my family's weird anti-science stance.


Even now I am only describing a fraction of her antics.

After my sixth session with her, I was really starting to feel angry and frustrated with the whole experience. I was feeling very angry toward her boss who continued refusing to see me, and continued to refuse answering my questions. I ended up writing a scathing e-mail to him.


And in that last e-mail that I received from him, he wrote to me:

Quote:
I now consider working with you not clinically advisable. I hope you can continue to explore your feelings and find satisfying answers to your questions with Dr. [my third therapist]. I would greatly appreciate it if you refrain from writing to me.

So I had handed to this guy a total of $1,350 ($700 for the personality disorder testing + $650 for the six and a half sessions of psychotherapy with his subordinate) over to his corporation, and yet he still wouldn't do what he said that he would do. And he's never going to.

And now not only was the psychologist refusing to see me, but his subordinate (my third psychotherapist) also began to refuse seeing me. I had last seen her on March of 2017, and I wanted to begin seeing her again back in February of 2018. She then sent me an e-mail telling me that if I continued trying to contact her, that she would take legal actions against me to prevent me from contacting her. She then stopped responding to all of my e-mails and phone calls.


Thanks in advance to any body here who can answer my question.
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Default Apr 07, 2019 at 09:56 AM
  #2
Sorry, I'm not quite understanding quite what happened here or what kinds of questions you they were refusing to answer. I do think it's quite common for therapists to prefer addressing everything in session rather than via email.

Are there scam psychotherapy corporations--I've never heard of that. Of course some people think that psychotherapy in general is a scam. Other people find it very helpful and think it helps them to improve their lives (as I do). It certainly sounds like the therapist you describe was not a competent one or not a good fit for you.
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Default Apr 07, 2019 at 11:43 AM
  #3
If she was an associate without licensure she was working under the license of the psychologist.
Having worked with a true CBT therapist this was not CBT. Look up the CBT workbook and take a look through it... you will know if anything matches your experience. Look up the psychologists license and see if there are investigations on it or suspensions. If the statute of limitations is not up I would file a complaint.

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Default Apr 07, 2019 at 04:23 PM
  #4
After more than 55 years of therapy, on and off, and 20 years almost continuously up until about 3 years ago, I think the whole "profession" is a scam. That's because after all that work, and trust, and money -- I just ended up getting rejected by my last therapist, after 6 years. And my life in a wreck.

Maybe I was never suitable for therapy -- but they didn't tell me that. They told me if I worked hard and trusted the therapist and was willing to face stuff and change and work though ruptures, etc. I would be better off than before.

Gullible, or over-idealistic, or just pathetically miserable me -- I sure wanted some hope. I researched stuff myself that said that therapy sometimes didn't work but got the idea that if the client was committed and worked hard, that was unlikely to happen. And the idea that if I worked hard, then I could make success happen -- well, that's not very realistic, but it's what I went into therapy with. Do they really expect clients going into therapy to be totally realistic? And do they think it lets them off the hook if it doesn't work? Yes, they do. Even if they aren't. No warning about particular types of symptoms or conditions that make therapy unlikely to be helpful, and also possibly harmful.
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Default Apr 07, 2019 at 04:37 PM
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omers View Post
If she was an associate without licensure she was working under the license of the psychologist.
Having worked with a true CBT therapist this was not CBT. Look up the CBT workbook and take a look through it... you will know if anything matches your experience. Look up the psychologists license and see if there are investigations on it or suspensions. If the statute of limitations is not up I would file a complaint.
Agree.

Plus, it seems like the guy owner tried to palm you off onto a less qualified woman? Like a bait and switch.

Based on things you said in your post, like about your family, i would say you might do better with a male t, maybe much older? Somebody who has enough life experience and therapy experience to be able to answer your questions. Someone who isnt threatened by your expectations or your intelligence or your forthrightness.

I found my perfect therapist when i find a child psychologist (who also counseled adults) but whose first degree was in philosophy. So you KNOW he was not afraid of the deeper questions, and would not give pat answers.

Other, "normal" people, yeah, im not surprised you feel like they are running a scam. Not the same thing, but why does something that costs 5 cents to make, sell for 20 dollars, for example? You gotta watch out for yourself.
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Default Apr 07, 2019 at 04:50 PM
  #6
The first problem was that you should not have been seeing someone without proper credentials, at the very least a masters degree and if you accept those diagnoses, a PhD. The second issue is one discussed a lot on the forum, that of to what degree does talk therapy help us. Some are very happy with their therapists, and some are not. We all have different insurance situations or the lack thereof, but we all need to find someone with whom w have rapport and whose approach we find helpful to us. My biggest issue with them has been that they tend to just sit there and let me vent. I’m quite the talker, so I can talk the whole time and fill the session. It’s important to vent sometimes, but I would prefer goal setting, more guidance, and I often tell them that but that only happens if I state my goals myself. I love workbooks which I get on Amazon.. I love a lot of structure and dont understand why they dont use that kind of approach, addressing problems that are universal for a particular disorder like recognizing triggers, etc, blended in with dealing with the client’s situational challenges. Obviously we have to take charge of helping to mold our own therapy, but when we are seriously struggling it can be hard to do that. So I guess one lesson is to talk over the approach you want when you are feeling as well as possible. It is important to discuss the approach you want in the first session and not be afraid to leave a situation that isn’t working, tho I know how hard it is to start over. All the more reason to discuss the approach you want at the beginning.

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Default Apr 07, 2019 at 05:18 PM
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Is all therapy a scam? No. CAN therapy be a scam? Absolutely. Was your therapy a scam? Hard to say. It does sound like you knowingly went to a CBT-focused center and signed a contract with them. That does seem like a bit of, at least, a weird therapy business model. My guess is, contractually, they gave you what you signed up for and have covered themselves legally.

It doesn’t sound like CBT was really the modality of therapy you were really looking for, and the fit, along with what sounds like a poor therapist wasn’t at all effective. IF you want to pursue therapy, you might want to do more research about different modalities before you commit to therapy, and I personally would discourage this kind of business contract situation with a therapy center. Honestly sounds sketchy (but again, I’m betting they’ve got their legal contractual end all buttoned up).
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Default Apr 07, 2019 at 05:52 PM
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Firstly, I think some clarification is needed since people are saying this therapist isn't qualified and aren't clear about what an LPA is. LPAs in California are people who have either completed a master's degree in psychology, education with a specialization in psychology, or counseling psychology OR they are in a doctoral program for one of those fields and are at least in their third year and have passed preliminary doctoral examinations. These are the statutes as laid out by the state of California as to LPAs, and California deems it lawful for LPAs to practice under licensed psychologists. Since OP verified the licenses of all involved, there really isn't a question of whether the parties involved are qualified to provide treatment.

OP, the therapist you describe certainly sounds bizarre and I would be pissed off if I had paid for that, too. However, there are plenty of bad therapists. That seems like a simpler explanation than that it was a scam. I'm a little bit confused about why you wanted to talk to the boss. The type of scam I think you're suggesting - a corporation designed to provide fake CBT - seems like it would require that all clients be strung along. Yet I'm not sure why all clients would be motivated to put up with that horrible therapist. And it doesn't seem like a very efficient scam. I mean, they still have all the costs associated with providing what is considered real therapy. So what would be the point? They wouldn't be making any extra money. Does that make sense?

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Default Apr 08, 2019 at 09:16 AM
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You could inquier with the CA board of psychology. You could describe your experience and also find out if all these people are licensed through the state to practice.
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Default Apr 09, 2019 at 05:31 AM
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I lived in California for 30 years. I dont care if this LPA designation is legal, its like having only a medical practitioner when you need to see the doctor. And she was in fact totally unprofessional.Mental illness is very complicated and I would never have a therapist in training. I have never been full bore angry at anyone on this forum, but now I am. What an arrogant response about the LPAs. They are now using medical practitioners in a lot of regular medical practices, ,for example trying to make my husband feel like its ok to see the doctor for only a few minutes with his serious heart problems when it has mostly been the practitioner and that that is adequate. No way for me and I will not allow this. The doctors rush in and out giving 15 minutes max. I’m sure they are killing 100s of people across the country with this approach. Yes, its the system and the insurance companies, but we have to make ourselves heard objecting to this. Yes, they have to train these people, but not on my dime!

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Default Apr 09, 2019 at 10:21 AM
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Did any of these people ever refer you to a psychiatrist to confirm/ rule out the diagnosis's and to see if you were a candidate for medication? They diagnosed you with serious mental health issues. I believe most psychologists would refer the client to a psychiatrist to confirm what they thought or look for anything additional or even consider medication. IME the family and friends that I know in therapy and having been diagnosed with mental illness were all referred to a psychiatrist to be evaluated for anything else, concur with the psychologist's opinion and to be screened for meds. Counseling and therapy are wonderful but when you are dealing with mental illness diagnosis's- which go beyond behavior therapy and include brain chemistry, it is prudent to be screened by an MD with mental illness as a specialty. It makes sense to me. Even if you dont want meds, or cant take them or do not want to work with a doctor, its important to r/o other things and get a supporting opinion.

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Default Apr 09, 2019 at 01:24 PM
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@ Sarah that's really only true when symptoms could be caused by an underlying medical condition (like an organic brain disease). It's not really true in general. In fact, clinical psychologists are the ones who administer psychological testing, which is what is typically used when a diagnosis needs to be clarified, not psychiatrists.

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Default Apr 09, 2019 at 03:17 PM
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@ Sarah that's really only true when symptoms could be caused by an underlying medical condition (like an organic brain disease). It's not really true in general. In fact, clinical psychologists are the ones who administer psychological testing, which is what is typically used when a diagnosis needs to be clarified, not psychiatrists.
Yes but mood disorders can sometimes require medication and in order to rule that in or out you would have to see a psychiatrist. And mental illnesses is at the very least biological and I believe having an appointment as a means of solidifying, confirming, affirming or treating mental illness is good practice.
Quote:
Mental health practitioners agree that psychiatric symptoms are not always best explained psychologically. In fact, neuroscience now maintains that mental illness is largely a question of biology. Although most psychiatric or emotional symptoms are appropriately explained by biopsychosocial models, studies suggest approximately ten percent (10%) of psychiatric outpatients have a physical disease as the underlying cause of their symptoms (Taylor, 2000). Anxiety, depression, paranoia, and mania as well as many other psychological and behavioral manifestations may be either a reaction to life stress or associated with genetic vulnerability, a neurological deficit, drug reactions, or organic disorder. This course will review how the brain and body affect each other, and how medical illness can cause depression, anxiety, psychosis, and cognitive impairment. .

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Default Apr 09, 2019 at 05:51 PM
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@sarahsweets You did notice the part where only 10% had underlying physical diseases causing their symptoms? This does not refute what I said, it supports what I said. And actually, the only mental disorders that absolutely require medication as a rule are schizophrenia (and other psychotic disorders or psychotic symptoms) and bipolar disorder. The only way to tell if someone cannot be effectively treated for a mood disorder without medication is by attempting treatment without medication first. It's not something a psychiatrist can determine just from talking to somebody. Yeah, they can say if medication will be helpful, but that's very different from saying if medication is required.

Also, the excerpt you quoted seems to go back and forth about mental illness being biological. It says that most symptoms can be explained from biopsychosocial models, which is NOT the same as a purely biological model.

To be clear, I am very much pro-medication myself. I just had to refute the idea that psychiatrists are the ultimate diagnosticians.

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Default Apr 09, 2019 at 06:30 PM
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I dont mean to imply that psychiatrists are the only people who can diagnose or that mental illnesses all have or must have physical causes. They are biological though and I feel like its simply checking something off of a list by having a patient see one. Its like having your car in the shop for a brake job and asking the brake guy to check your oil and tires. Might as well be sure. The reason I quoted that part was because I was trying to use it as an example for why I think both of our ideas are on the right track.
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@sarahsweets You did notice the part where only 10% had underlying physical diseases causing their symptoms? This does not refute what I said, it supports what I said. And actually, the only mental disorders that absolutely require medication as a rule are schizophrenia (and other psychotic disorders or psychotic symptoms) and bipolar disorder. The only way to tell if someone cannot be effectively treated for a mood disorder without medication is by attempting treatment without medication first. It's not something a psychiatrist can determine just from talking to somebody. Yeah, they can say if medication will be helpful, but that's very different from saying if medication is required.

Also, the excerpt you quoted seems to go back and forth about mental illness being biological. It says that most symptoms can be explained from biopsychosocial models, which is NOT the same as a purely biological model.

To be clear, I am very much pro-medication myself. I just had to refute the idea that psychiatrists are the ultimate diagnosticians.

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Default Apr 10, 2019 at 03:22 AM
  #16
I am trying to clarify the story here. So in 2016 you saw the psychologist (once?) and had a full evaluation done, resulting in some diagnoses.
Then over an eight month period you didn't see or talk to this psychologist, but exchanged some emails with him in which you asked some questions and were given responses that more or less directed you to make an appointment to discuss these questions with the psychotherapist he recommended to you. (Is that correct?)

After eight months of back and forth emails (how many, how often? That may have relevance to the overall story here) you began to see the psychotherapist for CBT therapy. It sounds like you and her were not a great fit. (That happens - most people see a couple of different therapists before they find one that feels like a good fit personality and modality wise). She didn't answer the questions you had, she made comments that didn't sit well with you, and you didn't feel like it was worth it. Is that right?

Can I ask if you were continuing to email the initial psychologist during this time? When was it that the psychologist asked you to stop emailing him, and what prompted him to ask that of you?
I am trying to figure out the story but am not sure if I have it right.
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Default Apr 10, 2019 at 01:07 PM
  #17
So what do you actually want to know, whether we think you can/should report these people? Sure. Look on the State of California website. Whether you could get some money from a small claims court filing? Might not be worth the tim t would take you to put a case together and you would have to have documentation.
It’s obvious your first priority should be to replace them with reputable practitioners.
I think it is much more likely that they are just incompetent rather than practicing a scam. Sad but true. Ive seen so many.
After 40 years or more with my disorder and knowing many people in real life who have other disorders, I would never accept a diagnosis from a psychotherapy group without verification from a board certified psychiatrist. A psychotherapist told me 40 years ago that I had an anxiety disorder, period. Since then I diagnosed myself , with verification from professionals from that time forward and it turns out that I have one of the more complicated types of bipolar. Research these conditions yourself in addition to seeing the proper professionals. You know yourself best.
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Default Apr 10, 2019 at 04:53 PM
  #18
First off, one needs to establish what sort of therapist is conducting the treatment. Merely being called a 'therapist' is no guarantee that they are an actual psychologist. Don't make the mistake of assuming this as such. There are counselors out there sometimes with little more than a quick online seminar who practise therapy. There are those with some limited background in therapy like social workers and so on. As the client, you need to determine just who and what you are getting.

I came across what felt like an online therapy scam recently. The therapists turned out to be social work students. In other words, I was no more than their guinea pig to practise on. The infuriating part of this is that this was covered by the provincial health care plan - tax payers are paying for this farce.

And how was the therapy? It was a standard CBT therapy that was pretty much verbatim from the books I have read. What a waste of my time.
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Default Apr 10, 2019 at 05:26 PM
  #19
From what I have seen a cactus could do most of what therapists do.

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Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
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Member Since: Mar 2017
Location: United kingdom
Posts: 137
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Default Apr 10, 2019 at 05:50 PM
  #20
My dog offers more -is that a scam to get food shelter and affection ? Maybe but it’s consistent and upfront lol
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