Couch 194: The Floral Couch

Lemoncake · Apr 26, 2019 at 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unaluna

LT - I think i am struggling with this also. I have a GP appointment monday, and i always feel so judged. Even tho he is super nice. But your last lines got me thinking - maybe the way for us to have now what we didnt have then, is to be the adult in our homes. Cuz i think like i told my dentist once - theres no grownup in my house making sure i brush my teeth before i go to bed. There NEVER was. Anyway, this week my daily goal was just to not be crazy any day (not overeat, not overspend? not otherwise hurt myself - not sure WHAT i meant!) And to make myself smell good, instead of smelling like a goat, as my mother used to tell me i did.

So maybe be our own parents in a way? Ick factor- but I remember being 7 and we were given a chart for brushing our teeth in school. I just remember not ticking off any boxes because i just didn't do it. A child isn't going to do any of that on their own.

I like the saying smell like a goat. My go to perfume is from the body shop. Moringia and it was super cheap too.

Lemoncake · Apr 26, 2019 at 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostOnTheTrail

Morning, Couch.

Still recovering from yesterday's session. Trusting people is hard, but it looks like I'm gonna have to do a lot more of that going forward.

It's okay to go at your own pace. It'll happen when it happens.

LostOnTheTrail · Apr 26, 2019 at 04:06 AM

Thanks, Cake.

How can everything feel up in the air, when nothing has changed yet?

Lemoncake · Apr 26, 2019 at 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostOnTheTrail

Thanks, Cake.

How can everything feel up in the air, when nothing has changed yet?

It might be the same old room , but I think things have changed because of what she told you.

Apr 26, 2019 at 04:55 AM

morning couch. well i guess it's pretty much still the middle of the night where i live but i can't sleep i'm still in so much pain. this needs to let up already. i've already taken 2 of the 12 percocets the hospital prescribed, and got about 2 hours of sleep each time I took one. i didn't even think to ask them how long i can expect this pain to last. i hurt so much couchies. i just want to scream.

Lemoncake · Apr 26, 2019 at 05:38 AM

I'm sorry your struggling so much right now Artie.

Can you take a hot bath? It might sound stupid but I listened to a few pain relief videos on youtube.

CantExplain · Apr 26, 2019 at 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostOnTheTrail

Thanks, Cake.

How can everything feel up in the air, when nothing has changed yet?

Disorientation strikes when you know change is going to happen. Once the changes start, you have something concrete to deal with instead of vague fears. And you can rise to the challenge.

LonesomeTonight · Apr 26, 2019 at 06:16 AM

Ugh, Art, I'm sorry you're in so much pain. Did they tell you anything else you could do to help it besides the percocet? Like is there anything topical that you could put on it? Or could heat (like heating pad) or cold (ice pack) help? I've known a few people who had shingles, and they've said it was really miserable, too. I hope you feel better soon...did they say how long it usually takes to go away?

LostOnTheTrail · Apr 26, 2019 at 06:22 AM

Thanks, CE.

ElectricManatee · Apr 26, 2019 at 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

I think it's because it's developmental that it can be resolved. But I don't think it can happen with this T because it's just not how he works, and he doesn't have those skills.

It's not about fixing the past--you're right, that time has gone--it's about fixing your relationship to yourself as you experience your past in the present.

Yes! Exactly this. How does one find a therapist who works this way? I blundered into one, but I still don't understand why some therapists can help with this kind of thing and some can't.

Echos Myron redux · Apr 26, 2019 at 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Yes! Exactly this. How does one find a therapist who works this way? I blundered into one, but I still don't understand why some therapists can help with this kind of thing and some can't.

The therapist needs to have a good understanding of, well, basically what FKM just said. Not all Ts are trained that way or even have the capacity to understand that. The therapist also needs to have a solid sense of self, self-trust and willingness to reflect on themselves deeply. They also need to be willing to go on a bit of a journey with the client, which will involve feelings being raised for them too. They need to have the capacity to tolerate that, and also not to lose their own grounding. It's hard. I'm also very lucky in that respect.

ElectricManatee · Apr 26, 2019 at 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Echos Myron redux

The therapist needs to have a good understanding of, well, basically what FKM just said. Not all Ts are trained that way or even have the capacity to understand that. The therapist also needs to have a solid sense of self, self-trust and willingness to reflect on themselves deeply. They also need to be willing to go on a bit of a journey with the client, which will involve feelings being raised for them too. They need to have the capacity to tolerate that, and also not to lose their own grounding. It's hard. I'm also very lucky in that respect.

Yes, this seems exactly right to me too. I just don't know how one would find it in the first place. I didn't have a sense of what any of this meant until several years into working with my T, when we finally got to this depth/type of work. I'm actually getting pretty good at seeing this kind of person in my life now too (I can predict reasonably accurately who is going to say "me too!" when I mention being in therapy), but I wouldn't have been able to identify it before I started this kind of therapy with this kind of therapist. So how does somebody know how to find it in the first place?

Echos Myron redux · Apr 26, 2019 at 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Yes, this seems exactly right to me too. I just don't know how one would find it in the first place. I didn't have a sense of what any of this meant until several years into working with my T, when we finally got to this depth/type of work. I'm actually getting pretty good at seeing this kind of person in my life now too (I can predict reasonably accurately who is going to say "me too!" when I mention being in therapy), but I wouldn't have been able to identify it before I started this kind of therapy with this kind of therapist. So how does somebody know how to find it in the first place?

I think you do have to be hugely lucky. One thing I did was to read my T's book (or at least some of it) before I went to see him, so I had an idea that he understood transference, cared about ethics, and was self-reflective. But I only knew I needed those things because I had experience of a therapist who wasn't! So for someone starting out in therapy (particularly where they might not be sure of their own needs) it really is a matter of chance...

LonesomeTonight · Apr 26, 2019 at 08:21 AM

A T could also be well-trained in all that and talk the talk about things like transference and the importance of working through it and you can buy into that and you see them for years and only in retrospect can you realize that they didn't know what they were doing and likely did more harm overall than good. Referring to ex-MC here, who is psychodynamically trained and spoke seemingly knowledgeably about transference and such things. So it can be really hard to tell...And there could also be a T who isn't particularly trained in those things but who could just be really good at handling that stuff (I am *not* referring to my T here, just hypothetical).

LonesomeTonight · Apr 26, 2019 at 08:25 AM

I think this therapy thing might be working! I was initially a bit upset by something my T said in his response, then (on my own) I thought about it some more and saw how it could fit into a bigger picture, like not just about this specific thing or about him/our relationship. How I could use this as a jumping off point to examine other things in my life, assumptions I make about people, etc. So...progress?

Echos Myron redux · Apr 26, 2019 at 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

A T could also be well-trained in all that and talk the talk about things like transference and the importance of working through it and you can buy into that and you see them for years and only in retrospect can you realize that they didn't know what they were doing and likely did more harm overall than good. Referring to ex-MC here, who is psychodynamically trained and spoke seemingly knowledgeably about transference and such things.

The most important thing to remember about MC is that he was your marriage counsellor, not your therapist. I think his number one failure was not keeping to the purpose of why you were there to see him.

I think he also didn't have that other thing I refer to above - the capacity for self-reflection and to tolerate difficult feelings (yours or his own). Training can't teach that.

LonesomeTonight · Apr 26, 2019 at 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Echos Myron redux

The most important thing to remember about MC is that he was your marriage counsellor, not your therapist. I think his number one failure was not keeping to the purpose of why you were there to see him.

I think he also didn't have that other thing I refer to above - the capacity for self-reflection and to tolerate difficult feelings (yours or his own). Training can't teach that.

Yes, I sometimes wonder how things would have gone if he'd been my individual therapist. Is it possible he could have helped me and we could have worked through the transference? Or would everything have just blown up much more quickly? I think the latter is much more likely because, as you said, he doesn't seem very good at self-reflection, as evidenced by what happened in our ruptures. He didn't seem to realize the effects that his wildly inconsistent boundaries had on me. He seemed able to tolerate many feelings of mine, but apparently (romantic?) love was not one of them. And he also wasn't able to handle it when I called him out on his inconsistent boundaries, as that led to him nearly yelling at me on the phone, being highly defensive, gaslighting me, and then shifting another boundary on me.

ElectricManatee · Apr 26, 2019 at 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

A T could also be well-trained in all that and talk the talk about things like transference and the importance of working through it and you can buy into that and you see them for years and only in retrospect can you realize that they didn't know what they were doing and likely did more harm overall than good. Referring to ex-MC here, who is psychodynamically trained and spoke seemingly knowledgeably about transference and such things. So it can be really hard to tell...

Yes! This is absolutely true. I have had stages where I have been doubting my T and wondering about this exact thing. And then it's like, is this doubt just more of my stuff around trust or whatever, or am I ignoring a real red flag? I think one thing that's helpful is bringing up the doubt and seeing what happens: is the T defensive, do they try to coerce you to stay, do they ponder the meaning and then offer possible interpretations about why you feel this way, etc. It's this really delicate thing where the T needs to be solidly invested in working with you, but not so invested that they try to get you to stay to meet their own needs (financial, emotional, etc).

LonesomeTonight · Apr 26, 2019 at 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Yes! This is absolutely true. I have had stages where I have been doubting my T and wondering about this exact thing. And then it's like, is this doubt just more of my stuff around trust or whatever, or am I ignoring a real red flag? I think one thing that's helpful is bringing up the doubt and seeing what happens: is the T defensive, do they try to coerce you to stay, do they ponder the meaning and then offer possible interpretations about why you feel this way, etc. It's this really delicate thing where the T needs to be solidly invested in working with you, but not so invested that they try to get you to stay to meet their own needs (financial, emotional, etc).

I agree on your comment about the doubt. Ex-MC tried to convince us to stay, to work through things with him (I suspect it was partly to meet his own needs as well). I stayed longer than I wanted to because he made me feel it was important to work through it. It did feel a bit like coercion.

While my current T (who I know has his flaws), whenever I've expressed doubt about him, he's just accepted it (not gotten defensive or anything), and we've discussed it. He's said if I realize I need a different T, he understands. And he's fine with my consulting with another T (and I did just that) or taking a break and going to see a different T for a stretch of time, that he's not going anywhere if I want to return to him. That he wants what's best for me. There's this part of me that wants him to be like, "I want you to stay with me," but I also know the right thing for him to do is to just let me go. So I appreciate that.

stopdog · Apr 26, 2019 at 10:43 AM

I am going to try to make a whitepot pudding with gluten free bread.

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Couch 194: The Floral Couch

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Lemoncake Luna's offical mini me. Member Since May 2017 Location: Cafe Nervosa. Posts: 9,691 (SuperPoster!) 6 10.2k hugs given	Apr 26, 2019 at 05:38 AM #586 I'm sorry your struggling so much right now Artie. Can you take a hot bath? It might sound stupid but I listened to a few pain relief videos on youtube. __________________ "Love, like life, flows Through the heart. Feel the thrill of the flow And say nothing."

LostOnTheTrail Tweaky Dog Member Since Aug 2011 Location: England Posts: 4,789 12 3,116 hugs given	Apr 26, 2019 at 06:22 AM #589 Thanks, CE. __________________ 'Somewhere up above the great divide Where the sky is wide, and the clouds are few A man can see his way clear to the light Just hold on tight, that's all you gotta do...' Steve Earle - Fort Worth Blues 'You have all the grace you need for today, and today is all that matters.' - Steve Austin

stopdog underdog is here Member Since Sep 2011 Location: blank Posts: 34,722 (SuperPoster!) 12 1 hugs given	Apr 26, 2019 at 10:43 AM #600 I am going to try to make a whitepot pudding with gluten free bread. __________________ Please NO @ Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. Oscar Wilde Well Behaved Women Seldom Make History - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.