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Anne2.0
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Default May 05, 2019 at 04:40 PM
  #61
I think most people understand, especially if they are educated and/or have some life behind them, that their experience of other people, including their interpretations of what others do and say, and why they do them, can be very much wrong. Related to that is that some people always see the worst in people, rather than best, or otherwise do not give people the benefit of the doubt, and skew others with negativity rather than anything else. Usually I see the impact of this in their negative relationships with others, including one therapist after another. As another poster said, those of us who have been around this board for awhile have seen the OP do this same routine on other people.

I believe it makes sense for people to double check their perceptions about *others* (as to what people know about themselves, this doesn't apply), to examine whether their interpretations or beliefs about others (again, not what they know about themselves, which is all you can really know) are actually what they think. This is not to doubt the person's "experience" but to look honestly at how we look at other people. It has nothing to do with defending a therapist or anybody else, and IMO this kind of negative valencing of other people's behavior does nothing more than promote loneliness. If you are constantly interpreting what other people say and do in a negative way, it's going to be difficult for you to have any kind of relationship, including a therapeutic one. And the OP has great difficulty with social relationships in many different domains, including past blowups with previous therapists. I don't think anyone is doing her a favor to encourage her to think the tiniest of behaviors in a first therapy session is an accurate or reasonable way to approach a new opportunity to get some help and support. You can feel free to criticize me all you want, because I honestly do not feel hurt about it. But I just don't agree that people's "experience", which is really an inaccurate way of saying the way people interpret other people's behaviors or form beliefs about others' motivations and values and intentions, shouldn't ever be questioned. Feel free not to question it if that's your thing. But I will decline to agree with you or believe that I am doing something wrong by suggesting that the links between where the kleenex box goes and the therapist's ability to be warm and connected (or makes a negative statement about crying) in a session is tenuous at best and illogical at worst.

Some people never check out their perceptions about other people with those actual people. When my kid was in second grade, his teacher sent him to the school social worker because he refused to put down his book after reading time was over. The teacher thought he had a psychological problem. The social worker asked why he wouldn't put down his book and the kid said it was because he didn't have a bookmark and he didn't want to lose his place. The social worker gave him a bookmark and the problem was solved.

If I have a problem with something my therapist says or does, I ask, "why did you say X or why did you ask that question?" The answer is almost always different than I thought. I have also said I thought he was feeling ___ (angry, one time) and he's said no, it was ___. If you never check out your ideas about what others are doing and saying and why, you're left in some kind of lala land where you think you're some kind of social star. Every person who's ever told me they are excellent at "reading people" was more clueless than most people I know.

Misunderstandings are so easy to have happen, communication can be very complicated, people do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons and say things that one person thinks means one thing but it really means another to them. I think the world would be a better place if more people would ask people about why they put the kleenex there rather than make snap judgments about its meaning. Therapy is a great place to practice this without driving your friends and loved ones crazy. Although I have found most people appreciate when I ask questions so I'm sure I understand what they mean, maybe this makes them feel heard. And when I've been on the other side of people making judgements about what I've said or done based on something very small and a wild or over-interpretation, that feels pretty painful.

But I have no dog in this fight. I know what works for me. Dropping my defenses and excessive negativity around what I think about other people has had benefits in my life. I'm a convert from the skepticism of and a boogey man around every corner approach to therapy and life.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 05:48 PM
  #62
Anne.

In a way, the kleenex box can be thought of as a marshmallow test: how the client deals with it may say a lot about the client. OR the therapist.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 06:14 PM
  #63
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Anne.

In a way, the kleenex box can be thought of as a marshmallow test: how the client deals with it may say a lot about the client. OR the therapist.
Thats why i said it's good stuff for therapy. If this was brought up as free association as the thoughts arise, there may be aha type insights.

But people are telling Sarah the opposite, to not go on about it. I think you can learn alot about yourself--especially patterns-- by examining such thoughts in therapy.

When I've worried about what my Ts intentions were, it was extreme fear. One of my biggest traumas was related to someone who purposely deceived me and played mind games with me, so it made total sense that I would be fearful with someone who I was vulnerable with. It was all transference in my case, and since it was previously dissociated, I would have never known had it not been for the therapy. My Ts way of working drew out everything from the corners of my mind!

Again, I hope you try it Sarah. Wouldn't this be a new way for you as this T works differently?
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Default May 05, 2019 at 06:34 PM
  #64
It's interesting that people are so irked by OP's venting, and feel the need to "correct" her perceptions. Cant imagine presuming such a thing.

In my experience therapists are manipulators and weirdos and control freaks, and I would put nothing past them.

Some of the ones I saw positioned a clock on a wall or table such that only they could see it. One stated I should not look at the time, as that was her job.

I found there were endless degradations and anomalies.

I would not give a therapist benefit of the doubt on any level. They need to demonstrate sanity and basic competence. Details matter when trying to assess such things.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 06:46 PM
  #65
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And if you bring your own - they analyze that:
“I see you have brought your own tissues,” she smiles.

“Um, yes,” I say.

“I’m wondering if this is your attempt to take some control over your own grief?” she ponders.

This is barmy. I tell her it is nothing to do with trying to control my own grief, just that her tissues are thin and scratchy and exfoliate my nose, whereas mine are mansized with a hint of comforting balm.

Doktor R appears not to agree with my simple, practical explanation."
The Tissue Issue - Counselling Part Two | PLANET GRIEF
This article was hilarious! What a talented writer.

I also read what happened to the author--it was so tragic and difficult to read.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 07:10 PM
  #66
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It's interesting that people are so irked by OP's venting, and feel the need to "correct" her perceptions. Cant imagine presuming such a thing.

In my experience therapists are manipulators and weirdos and control freaks, and I would put nothing past them.

Some of the ones I saw positioned a clock on a wall or table such that only they could see it. One stated I should not look at the time, as that was her job.

I found there were endless degradations and anomalies.

I would not give a therapist benefit of the doubt on any level. They need to demonstrate sanity and basic competence. Details matter when trying to assess such things.
I have a softer view of therapy, but agree with not jumping to conclusions about people and their patterns/responses based off of historic internet venting. I hold even less stock in using the therapy relationship as any indicator into how a person behaves in real life or what their core problems are. It might be reliable, or might indicate a terrible therapist (or multiple terrible therapists).

I don’t blame Sarah at all for wanting to ensure she’s getting the best person for where she’s at. I think many of the pro-therapist repliers are fortunate to have good therapy/therapists. And agree with those who say that this is excellent therapy material - for the RIGHT therapist. From seeing the other side, I know how emotionally devastating it can be seeing the wrong person. This is the time to be picky! Often in the beginning, all we have are small things to go off of.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 08:29 PM
  #67
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And agree with those who say that this is excellent therapy material - for the RIGHT therapist.
But when people say something is good therapy material, isn't that implying the person cannot figure it out on their own? I would find this at least vaguely insulting.

If someone finds odd placement of kleenex bothersome, do they really need to pay someone to help them figure out what it means?

Therapy is supposed to be about healthy boundaries, but much of what i've seen and experienced has been super invasive.
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Default May 05, 2019 at 08:35 PM
  #68
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But when people say something is good therapy material, isn't that implying the person cannot figure it out on their own? I would find this at least vaguely insulting.

If someone finds odd placement of kleenex bothersome, do they really need to pay someone to help them figure out what it means?

Therapy is supposed to be about healthy boundaries, but much of what i've seen and experienced has been super invasive.
Perhaps!

Though it beats having dozens of internet strangers help the OP figure it out!

Or maybe it doesn’t, because this is free 😳
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Default May 05, 2019 at 11:14 PM
  #69
I don't know, there are plenty of things I apparently can't figure out by myself. I just spin my wheels and the smell of burned rubber begins to pervade my life.

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Default May 06, 2019 at 12:14 AM
  #70
My psychiatrist keeps his tissue at the edge of his desk. When I first started seeing him, I never noticed them. I started to cry quietly as he and I were talking one day. He handed me a tissue. I was stunned. First because he noticed I was crying, it was so subtle, and second because he made such a thoughtful gesture to comfort me. It's funny what tissues can teach you in your therapist's or psychiatrist's office.
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Default May 06, 2019 at 05:33 AM
  #71
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Perhaps!

Though it beats having dozens of internet strangers help the OP figure it out!

Or maybe it doesn’t, because this is free 😳
I apparently needed several (though less than a dozen) strangers on the internet to help me figure out -- to suggest an alternative point of view -- that therapy wasn't, and hadn't been, good for me in lots of ways.

I did need, and have needed, other people in my life. Other "safe" people, or a sense that it was safe to read or listen to their views and decide for myself. Therapists, and I saw a lot, did not convey that to me.

Nevertheless, given what is available to you, Sarah, I wonder, if you can find a way to work with the therapist to get some new ideas which could help you get to a place where life is meaningful for you? Given your experience with past therapists, keeping her at "arm's length", or further, seems reasonable. And yet -- it does seem that you want closeness with someone, or some ones, given how much the loss of your last therapist hurt you?

Maybe this therapist can't provide the warmth and closeness that you want -- starting, then, from a place of disappointment, is there anything that you can think of that you might gain from being with her? Perhaps just the experience of being with another human being, given that you don't have a lot of them/us in your life right now?

I tried a bunch of therapists after the horrible experience with my last longish-term T (6 years). It ended up just confirming that they were (all) terrible for me. Their attitudes were "helping" rather than respecting, which is what I guess I needed, though I didn't know that. I had this forum, and a real life support group, and eventually have given up completely on them.

But I've said often enough on this forum how many years I did try, and "believe in" therapy -- felt it was the right thing to do, felt I had no other real choice. If I were in your shoes, I think I would continue to try it again because -- well, it is an opportunity to be with another human being and if nothing else to decide for yourself what you don't like -- and maybe even some things you do like -- about her. So it seems to me that could expand your experience base. Maybe that's not what psychoanalysis is normally about -- but it's your therapy and it seems to me you can use it for whatever and however you want, within the boundaries of the therapy session.
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Default May 06, 2019 at 08:05 PM
  #72
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Perhaps!

Though it beats having dozens of internet strangers help the OP figure it out!

Or maybe it doesn’t, because this is free 😳
I have a family member who has had a million therapists and life coaches, and who treats everyone he meets as a potential therapist (literally). The more he asks for advice and input, the more helpless he becomes. And there is no shortage of people eager to give their pretentious sermons about what he should do with his life or what things mean. Dysfunction on both sides. This constant therapizing is considered some sort of path to autonomy, but it has made him a cripple. Seems common. And I doubt many people are urging him to trust his own insight, because the culture operates on the therapy model.
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Default May 07, 2019 at 11:26 AM
  #73
This post made me pay attention to where my T has Kleenex in her office. I haven't noticed because I don't really cry in therapy. Occasionally I get teary eyed but that's about it. There's one Kleenex box by each one of the chairs. Hmm. Good to know.

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