advertisement
Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
here today
Grand Magnate
here today has no updates.
 
Member Since: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 3,515
10 yr Member
1,429 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default May 14, 2019 at 02:02 PM
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2 View Post
Anger involves deep dissatisfaction about the external world - reactions to assignments and interpretations, other people, anything involving coming from the self and a perception/opinion about the external reality. ". . ..
I really appreciate this perspective on anger, in particular the way I have been talking about it with regard to what happened to me in therapy.

I'm thinking that the deep dissatisfaction is the lack of respect -- therapists repeating the lack of respect (and internal questions/solutions about how to cope with that) from early in my life.

How to get what you never had? How can you even know what you never had? I think I get inklings of something sometimes. . .but that's about all, right now.
here today is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
Xynesthesia2

advertisement
unaluna
Elder Harridan x-hankster
 
unaluna's Avatar
unaluna Female luna moth - Please, dont @mention me?Thanks!
 
Member Since: Jun 2011
Location: Milan/Michigan
Posts: 39,751 (SuperPoster!)
10 yr Member
66k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default May 14, 2019 at 02:06 PM
  #22
Okay, i read the whole thread (thru post 20). I think it was Xyn who brought up the practice of "practicing" expressing difficult emotions with t but stated it would be without consequence. That was never my intention with the practice of practicing.

The goal of practicing, for me, is for the client to learn how to express and deal with uncomfortable emotions - say jealousy or anger - with another person AND not blow up the relationship. How to keep the other person's feelings in mind while you are expressing yours. And right, the other person here, the t, is not REALLY invested in this relationship - they go home to their own real life - but therapy is kinda like playing house - even five years olds know you have to play nice if you want to keep your playmate. There are always consequences. Who said it was okay to go nuts?

If this is not the issue, then please clarify.
unaluna is online now   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
LonesomeTonight, Xynesthesia2
unaluna
Elder Harridan x-hankster
 
unaluna's Avatar
unaluna Female luna moth - Please, dont @mention me?Thanks!
 
Member Since: Jun 2011
Location: Milan/Michigan
Posts: 39,751 (SuperPoster!)
10 yr Member
66k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default May 14, 2019 at 02:11 PM
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by here today View Post
...
How to get what you never had? How can you even know what you never had? I think I get inklings of something sometimes. . .but that's about all, right now.
The books on childhood emotional neglect that have come out in the last decade or so have been VERY helpful in this regard. Jonice Webb i think is a name.
unaluna is online now   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
LonesomeTonight
Anonymous41422
Guest
Anonymous41422 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default May 14, 2019 at 02:48 PM
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
There are always consequences. Who said it was okay to go nuts?

If this is not the issue, then please clarify.
I know in my case, there was no ‘going nuts’.

I don’t recall so much as raising my voice to my therapist (minus the last session when all gloves were off).

She simply didn’t like the content of my criticism and complaints, and rather than listen, remained in constant defense mode. My memories were questioned, she replied in condescending tones, mocked me, cut off listening/caring, shot “I dare you to bring that up” stares when she could tell where a convo was going and so on.

When I was ‘slipping’ into hopeless crying in sessions because I felt invalidated, she used the opportunity to label and judge.

She needed to maintain an authoritarian atmosphere in which a client just didn’t disrespect a superior in that way. How dare I have the nerve to complain after all the good therapy she was giving me?
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Hugs from:
here today
 
Thanks for this!
here today
unaluna
Elder Harridan x-hankster
 
unaluna's Avatar
unaluna Female luna moth - Please, dont @mention me?Thanks!
 
Member Since: Jun 2011
Location: Milan/Michigan
Posts: 39,751 (SuperPoster!)
10 yr Member
66k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default May 14, 2019 at 03:18 PM
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors3 View Post
...When I was ‘slipping’ into hopeless crying in sessions because I felt invalidated, she used the opportunity to label and judge...
Im sorry your therapy deteriorated into all that.

But looking at it thru the window of practicing a relationship, what was going on at the above point? What were you each trying to say to or get from the other person? I feel thats where the almost literally mind-bending change comes in therapy, like doing one more push-up or whatever when you think you cant.
unaluna is online now   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Anonymous41422
Guest
Anonymous41422 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default May 14, 2019 at 03:34 PM
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
Im sorry your therapy deteriorated into all that.

But looking at it thru the window of practicing a relationship, what was going on at the above point? What were you each trying to say to or get from the other person? I feel thats where the almost literally mind-bending change comes in therapy, like doing one more push-up or whatever when you think you cant.
I wanted to feel heard and have all facets of ‘myself’ accepted. Even the whiney complaining parts.

I can’t fathom what space she was speaking from. When I am in a good mindset, I feel she cared about me too much and wanted to hurt me as much as I what I was saying was hurting her. Other therapists I consulted with admitted they had no idea what she was trying to accomplish but that it sounded like she needed therapy too. One even recommended going back and bringing in a third counselor to help patch things up (cue the laugh track!).

I’m an optimist but the mind-bending change you are referencing was not going to happen under her care. Actually, the change point was tapping into my own agency and realizing I am worth more than the treatment I was getting. Saying enough to years and years of suffering with no improvement and figuring out how to make myself happy instead of waiting for a mind bending change to do that. Very powerful.

Last edited by Anonymous41422; May 14, 2019 at 04:03 PM..
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Hugs from:
LonesomeTonight, unaluna
 
Thanks for this!
here today, koru_kiwi
here today
Grand Magnate
here today has no updates.
 
Member Since: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 3,515
10 yr Member
1,429 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default May 14, 2019 at 09:21 PM
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
Okay, i read the whole thread (thru post 20). I think it was Xyn who brought up the practice of "practicing" expressing difficult emotions with t but stated it would be without consequence. That was never my intention with the practice of practicing.

The goal of practicing, for me, is for the client to learn how to express and deal with uncomfortable emotions - say jealousy or anger - with another person AND not blow up the relationship. How to keep the other person's feelings in mind while you are expressing yours. And right, the other person here, the t, is not REALLY invested in this relationship - they go home to their own real life - but therapy is kinda like playing house - even five years olds know you have to play nice if you want to keep your playmate. There are always consequences. Who said it was okay to go nuts?

If this is not the issue, then please clarify.
What seems clear to you -- what seems clear to you that 5 year olds know -- is not what dissociated parts of me knew. "I", the adapted me, the 4 or 5 year old or younger, learned how to play nice by keeping the dissociated parts, including anger, out of picture, out of the interactions.

So, then, I thought therapy was inviting them into the room, into the interactions. I worked very hard to try to get in touch with, and accept the dissociated whatever-they-are -- feelings, demons, parts, what have you. And then the therapists couldn't tolerate them -- or their expressions, as best I could contain them and as best as they -- or the adapted I on behalf of them -- could find words.

I learned to tolerate my mother's rage, because I had to. I can numb out. Other people can rage at me and -- no big deal. Not so for their disapproval and shaming.

So, I thought I was "doing the right thing" when I expressed my emotions, at first primitively and later as civilly as I could manage, without the dissociated anger/rage or whatever it is going away (which I can usually make it do).

If your experience in life isn't like this -- and most people's isn't -- then, OK, I get it that you can't/don't understand it. Neither did my therapists.

But I'm 71 years old and if you are going to try to tell me I don't operate like this, well, go ahead . . .But it really doesn't make sense to me, finally, to accept your view of me and and how I must operate, because it is like how you and most people you know operate, over my own. I HAVE gotten that much out of all those years of therapy and self-reflection.

I asked the therapists for years for something like a "social play pen" where I could learn social interactions. Nothing, it doesn't exist.
here today is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Hugs from:
koru_kiwi, SlumberKitty
koru_kiwi
Veteran Member
 
koru_kiwi's Avatar
koru_kiwi has awakened
 
Member Since: Oct 2011
Location: the sunny side of the street
Posts: 672
10 yr Member
1,231 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default May 15, 2019 at 04:32 AM
  #28
this is such a good discussion HT.

funny enough, in regards to this topic and my ex-T, who often would react with defensiveness when i shared my anger about him (usually in the form of frustration or disappointment) is now becoming certified in Intensive Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy. when he shared this with me (some months after i had ended therapy) i googled it because i knew nothing about it and found it quite ironic when i came across this article:

Intensive Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy Makes Patients Want to Murder Their Therapists - VICE

after some of the things i have read about ISTDP, i'm not quite sure how i feel about him learning this technique...will it make him a better T and more competent to handling challenging situations with clients??? or will it just continue to feed into his covert narcissistic needs further??? all i know, is that i'm thankful i got out of there when i did because i definilty know i would not have been keen for him to try this kind of modality with me and the issues that i brought to therapy.
koru_kiwi is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
here today
Anonymous56789
Guest
Anonymous56789 has no updates. Edit
 
Posts: n/a
Default May 15, 2019 at 06:50 AM
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by koru_kiwi View Post
this is such a good discussion HT.

funny enough, in regards to this topic and my ex-T, who often would react with defensiveness when i shared my anger about him (usually in the form of frustration or disappointment) is now becoming certified in Intensive Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy. when he shared this with me (some months after i had ended therapy) i googled it because i knew nothing about it and found it quite ironic when i came across this article:

Intensive Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy Makes Patients Want to Murder Their Therapists - VICE

after some of the things i have read about ISTDP, i'm not quite sure how i feel about him learning this technique...will it make him a better T and more competent to handling challenging situations with clients??? or will it just continue to feed into his covert narcissistic needs further??? all i know, is that i'm thankful i got out of there when i did because i definilty know i would not have been keen for him to try this kind of modality with me and the issues that i brought to therapy.
A T did these techniques on me, yet I wasn't informed. I was having concentration difficulties and was referred to him.

I didn't feel murderous rage, but you could say I had a breakdown as my dissociated parts all came out. This was in the middle of graduate school, so I barely passed. I left traumatized and have been in therapy ever since.

I am not sure that therapy is ethical. Really sharp and put together therapists may be able to handle it, but definitely not a T who can't handle some anger.
  Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
here today, koru_kiwi
koru_kiwi
Veteran Member
 
koru_kiwi's Avatar
koru_kiwi has awakened
 
Member Since: Oct 2011
Location: the sunny side of the street
Posts: 672
10 yr Member
1,231 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default May 15, 2019 at 08:13 PM
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by octoberful View Post
A T did these techniques on me, yet I wasn't informed. I was having concentration difficulties and was referred to him.

I didn't feel murderous rage, but you could say I had a breakdown as my dissociated parts all came out. This was in the middle of graduate school, so I barely passed. I left traumatized and have been in therapy ever since.

I am not sure that therapy is ethical. Really sharp and put together therapists may be able to handle it, but definitely not a T who can't handle some anger.
i definilty have my reservations too about whether it is ethical. i find it interesting what you shared about your brief experince with it and i'm sorry to hear that it was not a very positive or healing experince for you.

i suspect my ex-T was getting interested or already starting his training in the technique a few months before i ended with him. i had a quite odd and different experince with him when i was in the middle of trying to process some aspect of my early CSA truama by the hands of a neighbor and out of the blue he made a random comment that felt manipulating and as if he was trying to completly steer the abuse conversation to focus on me being angry at my parents for failing me and letting me down. i felt i was really in the moment with processing the sexual abuse memory, and feelings that were coming up, i felt safe enough to do so, and then out of the blue it felt like he literally side swiped me to change the direction by 180 degrees. i felt i lost a lot of trust for him during and after that moment. turns out, that was the session that set me in motion to work towards ending for sure. i realised that the trust was not there...he didn't trust me to trust my own process and i didn't trust him to not mess it up again because he had his own agenda to fulfill.
koru_kiwi is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Hugs from:
SlumberKitty
 
Thanks for this!
here today
BudFox
Grand Magnate
BudFox has no updates.
 
Member Since: Feb 2015
Location: US
Posts: 3,983
8 yr Member
752 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default May 15, 2019 at 08:23 PM
  #31
Agree the system is insane.

I now see how pointless it was to direct anger or other emotion at a therapist. It's an artificial relationship. If the therapist dispenses a simulated, mechanical, clinical version of "acceptance"... so what? Seems irrelevant. Might as well get angry with a tree.
BudFox is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
Anonymous45127, here today, koru_kiwi, Xynesthesia2
here today
Grand Magnate
here today has no updates.
 
Member Since: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 3,515
10 yr Member
1,429 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default May 15, 2019 at 08:35 PM
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudFox View Post
Agree the system is insane.

I now see how pointless it was to direct anger or other emotion at a therapist. It's an artificial relationship. If the therapist dispenses a simulated, mechanical, clinical version of "acceptance"... so what? Seems irrelevant. Might as well get angry with a tree.
Ha ha ha ha!!

Thanks. I'll think of a tree next time I think of the last therapist or any of the others.
here today is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
here today
Grand Magnate
here today has no updates.
 
Member Since: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 3,515
10 yr Member
1,429 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default May 16, 2019 at 07:20 AM
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2 View Post
HT - have you ever been able to express the emotions/style of that part, the anger etc, in any domain of your everyday life? . . .. I personally have always found it to be best to exercise this with trusted confidants from ordinary reality: close friends, romantic partners, even long-term close work colleagues. I rarely had bad experiences in adulthood (quite a lot in childhood though), especially when I initiate these people into potentially encountering those aspects of me prior to actual exposure - it can be much like how you write about it here on PC. I seriously never had an experience when acute, momentary expression of anger (from anyone involved) and interpersonal conflict led to big ruptures and breaking up an important relationship. I had that with a therapist though and, unlike many people here, I tend to think it is exactly because a T will never be as invested in a relationship with a client as most other people we maintain meaningful relationships with.
I am coming back to this reply because I think it points to something that has been a core problem for me.

I had cut off expressing anger in my family before I started school and didn't express it with friends. I didn't initiate anybody into knowing those parts of me existed -- except as I have done here on PC, as you noted. Didn't have any close friends either -- I guess when I experienced differences or potential differences I mostly remained politely civil, and somewhat distant.

So, never having had a relationship where the angry part of me was accepted, I did not have the chance to learn how to do it in real life -- and, again, not having had that I had no clue that a therapist might not be able to handle it. Until they couldn't, and the relationship ruptured. And I had no clue why that would have happened, because someone expressing intense anger at me would NOT cause the relationship to rupture.

It's like Starry_Night wrote, and something koru_kiwi seemed to feel as well::

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starry_Night
. . .
they were very angry kids who had a lot of angry words to say to her. sometimes she yelled back. which was fine. eventually though she hugged them which made them cry and after awhile they got attached to her, now they love her.

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi
this is the kind of healing emotional corrective experince that i often was hoping to have happened with my ex-T, especially when child parts were struggling with anger and disappointment with him. unfortunately, those experiences often were 'missed' or completely misunderstood by him and never happened that way. . .
In other words, I think I needed to have relationships with people that I could fight with, and then come back together with. The fight may be unpleasant, involving frustration and deep dissatisfactions as Xynesthesia described it. But then, both sides know about those differences, and maybe more about the other person than they did before, and can come together in a more meaningful way, as Starry_Night described.

I don't think it was unreasonable for me to expect this from therapy, though, given their hype.

Last edited by here today; May 16, 2019 at 07:59 AM..
here today is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
koru_kiwi, susannahsays, Xynesthesia2
BudFox
Grand Magnate
BudFox has no updates.
 
Member Since: Feb 2015
Location: US
Posts: 3,983
8 yr Member
752 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default May 16, 2019 at 11:28 AM
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by here today View Post
Ha ha ha ha!!

Thanks. I'll think of a tree next time I think of the last therapist or any of the others.
I got mad at my tree-therapist today. My tree-therapist just sat there and was cold and detached. Damn blank slate tree-therapist!
BudFox is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
 
Thanks for this!
here today, koru_kiwi, susannahsays, Xynesthesia2
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:01 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® — Copyright © 2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.



 

My Support Forums

My Support Forums is the online community that was originally begun as the Psych Central Forums in 2001. It now runs as an independent self-help support group community for mental health, personality, and psychological issues and is overseen by a group of dedicated, caring volunteers from around the world.

 

Helplines and Lifelines

The material on this site is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment provided by a qualified health care provider.

Always consult your doctor or mental health professional before trying anything you read here.