Anger and therapy

I’m going to try to move a discussion here to avoid de-railing another thread. From that discussion:

I don’t know that I am a generally belligerent person, but I can be – especially when I thought I had permission – even encouragement – to try to get in touch with my feelings, to be myself and express my emotions, as best I could, in therapy.

Over and over again, when that belligerent “person”/part/alter/emotion showed up in therapy, therapists couldn’t handle it. I learned something about myself with each try and each therapy/therapist failure. But got additionally damaged with each try, too. I'm not going to try another therapist -- that would be foolish. The profession couldn't protect me from their incompetence and "bad apples", and I lacked the ability to protect myself.

To be angry at that situation, as now appears to be reality to me, seems justifiable and reasonable. Yet still debilitating, because there is nothing that I can do about it.

I am normally an avoidant but pleasant client. I was Nasty to one T who after 3 years of asking what I needed from her could/would not find a way to meet that need. I got very nasty from then out when she asked about needs. The second T was utterly incompetent and I was totally nasty to her when she would gloat about her incompetent style being better than the research... even though she was a very new therapist. My belligerence with her was so bad it scared her supervisor who I was friends with.
If I got belligerent with current T he would become very concerned as I have never shown him anything but the utmost respect. However, I have seen some of his other clients leaving and I know he takes on court ordered clients so I am sure he gets people being belligerent a lot. My guess is he takes it in stride and deflects a great deal of it.
If I were to get belligerent or angry about something, anything outside of T he might throw a party! He feels I am way too tolerant of wrong doings and disrespect. I can also totally see him as the type to hold up a pillow or something for me to beat the crap out of if I was dealing with anger around something.

I think other than gender, our Ts are very similar, Omers.

Mine has offered, but I am intimidated by it all.

HT - have you ever been able to express the emotions/style of that part, the anger etc, in any domain of your everyday life? Maybe with your late husband? Just asking because I personally am not a huge fan of using therapy to "practice" the expression/sharing of frustration and anger. It is hardly ever very similar to ordinary life even if a T is super patient and allows any amount of it. I personally have always found it to be best to exercise this with trusted confidants from ordinary reality: close friends, romantic partners, even long-term close work colleagues. I rarely had bad experiences in adulthood (quite a lot in childhood though), especially when I initiate these people into potentially encountering those aspects of me prior to actual exposure - it can be much like how you write about it here on PC. I seriously never had an experience when acute, momentary expression of anger (from anyone involved) and interpersonal conflict led to big ruptures and breaking up an important relationship. I had that with a therapist though and, unlike many people here, I tend to think it is exactly because a T will never be as invested in a relationship with a client as most other people we maintain meaningful relationships with.

This is an excellent post and I agree with all points.

I was trying to elaborate but there too many layers of complication. Anger and frustration can become dangerous territory quickly due to transference, dramatically skewed power differentials, triggers of past abuse, unequal emotional investment etc. In order for intense conflict to play out in therapy in a genuine way, I think it requires more emotional resources than the typical therapist/client pairing possess. Success stories in this arena seem few and far between.

I agree. That's one of the reasons I don't see the idea of being able to say anything to a therapist without consequence as a net positive. I understand that it can be a release to use a therapist as a sort of receptacle for expressing what is not acceptable to express elsewhere. However, the idea that releasing anger in that way is any sort of practice for anything irl doesn't make sense to me. For me, this is especially true if the therapist is really patient and nonreactive. That sort of response isn't a genuine reflection of how people actually respond.

Not everybody has these kinds of relationships, however.

Exactly.

I agree with this:

It speaks to the therapist's competency to help a client make sense of it all to help the client move forward.

I don't fully understand the idea of anger being taboo in therapy. What about self pity, weakness, victimhood, wallowing, whining, misery, feeling sorry for oneself, snobbery, self-righteousness, etc.

It seems like people often go to therapy to seek help to get to a better place. Sometimes it takes time to get there.

I only just recently found one primary source of my anger. There's always something underneath, I believe. Maybe some people need help accessing the underlying feelings in order to get past it.

Thanks, Xynesthesia, good question. No, I have not. My late husband and I disagreed sometimes, but we never got very angry. Outside of, and before, that, anger was simply "not allowed" among the women in my family of origin. One was either ignored, shamed (which is similar to ignored), or raged at/ spanked.

I was told early in my experience with therapy that learning to get in touch with my emotions, and expressing them with the therapist, was a way to learn.. . . So, it took me over 50 years to learn that that's not the case.

My sister and aunt tolerated my differences of opinion and disagreements about my mother's care because . . well, yes, they were invested, too, in my mother's well-being and apparently didn't want to try to exclude me. But we do not now have any personal relationship.

My sister has learned to put up with me stating my opinion, and asking for hers, and objecting and being critical of her when she doesn't do what she says she is going to do with regard to some things about my mother's estate. Once again, it does seem that she is invested in that it is better, for her, for us to work together, because the other options aren't good, even if dealing with me is unpleasant, as she has sometimes made clear. Over the last 6 years she has finally seen, I think, that my businesslike manner and knowledge does have some benefits for our common interest. But that recognition has been very slow in coming. I persisted never really expecting it. It does make our working together easier, not just for me but for her, too. But a personal relationship at this point? I don't think so.

Well said.

Opinion only, but it seems the profession has been infiltrated by clueless do-gooders, self-proclaimed healers, narcissists, client-turned-therapists with unresolved issues, and an assortment of whack jobs and morons that practice “whatever feels right”. Evidence-based treatment has largely gone out the window, as well as the science and intellect of the field that previously kept both parties safe. I do believe that fantastic therapists exist, but resent that it’s the client’s responsibility to filter out the incompetent (often in a compromised mindset). The filtering often comes too late, when the damage has been done.

More than 50 years of therapy, to get shamed for my anger, back where I started? Seems to me, at this point, that the system is insane, and it would be insane (doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result) for me to try it again. They don't know what they are doing -- at least for me and likely other people like me.

But I'm still angry about that -- and that anger takes me no where.

I probably need to stay off of this board for awhile? Not sure I will, though, I'll see.

Anger involves deep dissatisfaction about the external world - reactions to assignments and interpretations, other people, anything involving coming from the self and a perception/opinion about the external reality. "Self pity, weakness, victimhood, wallowing, whining, misery, feeling sorry for oneself, snobbery, self-righteousness" do not really involve our very clear targeting of and expression of all the things we dislike in the outside world, find unfair and even inacceptable.

Don't go and hide.

As far as I can tell, your therapist should be the one holding the shame.

Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I don't know what you are saying here.

I’m not a very angry person, but have felt anger related to therapy. I’m not sure I’ve done a great job expressing it though. I once sent him an angry F you email and once I was unexpectedly angry in session (about a vacation, which just confused me) but I expressed it with silence and a bright red face. If I was a cartoon character there would have been smoke coming out of my ears. Right now I do feel some anger that I am considering bringing up tomorrow but this is difficult for me, so we’ll see. I have concerns related to your experiences, I guess. Will he understand my anger? Will he be frustrated or annoyed by it? Will it be a reason to terminate? It seems like he would respond appropriately, but you never know. I’m sorry that your experiences were not so great.

I don't agree that the "system is insane" and only responds with shame to anger, but I am not trying to question your experiences. They are what they are, and if you are not willing or able to consider whether you could do something different with anger in therapy other than the same thing you've always done, that is just where you are. Not telling you that therapy would fix this or blaming you for the problem.

I've been lucky to have three great long term therapists at different periods of my life, and I don't believe that a blanket statement that anger cannot happen in therapy is true, I think it's the expression of anger that often gets people into trouble rather than the emotion itself, and I think "belligerence" is probably not an appropriate expression of anger in therapy or outside of it, While some therapists may be able to handle any expression of therapy, belligerent or not, some may not be able or willing. So a belligerent client would be a poor fit for these therapists, especially if they were not able to help a client channel expressions of anger into a non-belligerent form, if that is possible for the client (who may not be able to ) or the therapist (who may not have the skills to),

I have expressed anger to and about all my therapists-- because I've had a lot of anger-inducing experiences, especially in childhood, and because I didn't always get what I wanted from them, or when I was harder on other people, because they didn't get it precisely right with me. I have not had the experience of being shamed for anger or any other emotion, and the therapists have helped me see what was underneath the anger. For me it has been true that anger is an emotion that covers others, such as hurt or something akin to that. Uncovering the hurt that leads to anger has been productive for me. I don't believe anger needs a cathartic response or that it is just a singular emotion or a singular experience. I channel the anger I feel at the legal system I work inside into passion for the causes and clients I serve. I don't have much lingering anger at my childhood abuse because I've dealt with the abuse itself and the dynamics around it, and understand what happened and why. When things make sense to me, I'm usually able to let go of the anger. Things that don't make sense make me extremely angry, although sometimes that's the way things are, they just don't make sense. There's nothing sensical about adults abusing children; it's destructive no matter who the adult and child are to each other. I wasn't neglected or emotionally abused, but I think the same is true. There's no reason to not provide a child with what they need (if the adult is capable) or to tear that child down.

Again, I'm not trying to question your experiences of anger in therapy, but I don't think they are universal. Acknowledging that different people can have different experiences isn't the same as having to deny what you yourself know to be true.

I think its worth stating that an outward expression of anger is a step up for some people-those who direct anger at themselves. Taking anger out on oneself can manifest as self destructive behavior in relationships, self punishment, self hate, self abuse through eating unhealthy and other substance abuse...many ways. This is quite common, even amongst those posting here.

Anger is a common symptom of depression, moreso than sadness, I believe.

On the positive side, here's one take on how anger in therapy is encouraged and is considered progress:

The Role of Anger in Depression | Psychology Today

Since anger is so common in depression,
I'm wondering if this concept of anger being taboo in therapy is more limited outside of this forum. I wouldn't use the stories here to guide me on how I wish to handle anger in therapy.

I think for me, getting angry in therapy was a very good thing. I was a classic example of ‘anger turned inwards’ depression. Anger didn’t bode well for my therapy relationship, but the rest of my life was changed for the better once the switch was flipped.

For those of us who aren’t familiar with perceiving and then letting out anger, it’s a difficult beast to wrestle with. Respecting others and expressing it appropriately may seem obvious or easy to some, but it can feel out of control and impossible to others. In my own experience, I knew that how I felt towards my therapist was overblown - but there it was, none the less - and I had to deal with it as best I could. All the while feeling embarrassed and ashamed with the ineloquent way it was coming out.

All I can do now is reflect and try to keep the rest of my life on track.

Are you really angry, or are you feeling hurt or betrayed? It sounds like you didn't receive the acceptance you were hoping to find, and that would make me feel all kinds of emotions. Anger seems to be the easiest go-to when we feel the need to protect ourselves. In the circumstances you describe, I could totally understand feeling like you need to protect yourself.

Thanks for your reply, but I did not say the system "only responds with shame to anger". You may not be trying to question my experiences, but you have put words in my mouth I did not say. If that's your interpretation, that's your interpretation, but it's not what I said.

I am really angry AND feeling hurt, betrayed, and. . .maybe things I don't have words for.

It's too late to protect myself -- the time is lost, my life is almost over. But I do feel a need try to bring this kind of situation to some kind of light, if I can.

Perhaps it would have been clearer what I was trying to do -- identify a problem in my therapies that seems to have been a problems in that of others -- if I had written here what I posted on the other thread I referred to in the OP.

I thought that Purple Mirrors, StarryNight, and koru_kiwi had all helped to put into words something I couldn't have put into words myself. Here it is:

.

I'm thinking that I -- maybe others -- may have some deep issues related to shame, that talking about it and words just don't get it. Again, I'm not quite sure what it is -- but maybe if those of us who have experienced it can keep talking about it, it may become clearer -- and then, maybe, we can describe and talk about it with others who may not have experienced these deep issues?

Just human-to-human, so I won't feel so alone, I would definitely like to share my experiences -- and my feelings about them -- with someone who can understand. The therapists I have seen have not understood. Maybe if those of us who have had the experiences talk about them enough, it will become clearer to everyone what has happened. Maybe not, too. But that is what I am trying to do.